Returning to DM: a series of blog posts you guys might enjoy

[Stitch]

Like (I'd imagine) many of you, Dungeon Master is a game that loomed large over my developmental years, even though I never manged to get very far in it. I have many a fond memory of playing the game on my dad's Atari ST back in 1987, making it up until the Creature Cavern at which point my 12 year old self would generally restart the game out of apprehension over the name "Creature Cavern."

Yeah, I was a wuss, but I recently decided to go back and actually play the game again (using CSBWin). I'd attempt a full playthrough as a gaming adult and see (1) how the game stacks up and (2) whether or not I could actually beat it now.

And because I obsess over things and attempt to put my thoughts into words, I'm currently in the middle of writing a series of blog posts about it (with increasingly horribly punny titles). I've never posted here but I lurk like you wouldn't believe, and I thought you guys might be interested in them. I know I've been hungrily devouring all things online regarding Dungeon Master lately, and this is my attempt to contribute to that.

Warning: the blog posts are written from my perspective so they're somewhat irreverent, and there is swearing, so be forewarned. But I really have attempted to balance the serious--what the game meant to me, how it holds up in 1012--with the not so serious--I tend to lean toward the humorous in all I do, and at some point the champions start talking back.

Anyway, if somewhat humorous/somewhat serious online articles written about Dungeon Master sound intriguing, then read on:

Returning to Dungeon Master, Pt. 1 (of 6): Unfinished Business
Returning to Dungeon Master, Pt. 2 (of 6): Exposition and Inventory
Returning to Dungeon Master, Pt. 3 (of 6): Down and Out in Worm Town
Returning to Dungeon Master, Pt. 4 (of 6): To Have and Behold
Returning to Dungeon Master, Pt. 5 (of 6): Stairway to Hell
Returning to Dungeon Master, Pt. 6 (of 6): All Tales Must End

[oh_brother]

Great posts, I am looking forward to seeing how you and your men finish off Lord Chaos. While the puns are indeed awful, the stories themselves are great!

Not to nit-pick on your minor criticisms (I am just curious) but why did you feel the game might be broken by the dash to the screamer room (I have done those dashes before - when you are dying of thirst, but don't know how far it is to the nearest water fountain - very tense moments!).

Thinking back I also played the first few levels many times as a kid. I have no idea why I did that, I can't remember my reasoning (if any).

And welcome to the forums!

[Stitch]

Thanks!

In the end, I don't actually think that the game is broken, as much as maybe just slightly unbalanced in the first few levels. The mad dash to the screamer room was certainly a gaming experience that I'll never forget, but in the end I think there was a level of "do or die" that most developers wouldn't intentionally put that early in a game, if at all. If I had been playing without the benefit of online maps I would have most likely proceeded through the level normally and died irreversibly in the attempt.

Having said that, I do think that the main culprit here was the fact that I was basically burning through food like crazy due to my inefficient playing style (which I then corrected). In other words, my poor choices resulted in a tough spot that can't exactly be blamed on FTL.

[Ameena]

Welcome to the forum . It's interesting reading your description of your time in DM...it seems so odd that someone would find the early game so difficult - the Rock Monsters and Worms are tricky, yes, but a few fireballs and stuff and they go down eventually . Still, I suppose it's 'cause this is your first time through the game, so you don't fully know what to expect. I imagine "back in the day", many people had similar problems. I was about five or six at the time, so I can't really remember how much difficulty I had. I did finish the game though . Anyway, it makes sense that you starved pretty quickly if you were spending a lot of time dancing around monsters - my stamina has a similar issue as I usually try not to get hit when fighting stuff, unless it's something wimpy like a Screamer or a Skeleton.
Anyway, looking forward to the next part of your epic journey through DM. And I'd love to see what you make of CSB, should you decide to play that once you've finished DM (aka "Easy Mode" ).

[beowuuf]

Just back from a hoiday, so I will type a better post later, and also read your posts more!

However, just to address the food/water concern, I think you are playing the Return to Chaos clone, right? One of the additions placed in - and something several clones like to do - was make the survival element one step harder. Only RTC kills you directly with thirst/hunger, and it's an annoying feature in new dungeons and for newer/returning players due to what you have just encountered.

In the original DM engine, lack of food reduced your natural stamina restoration to half, and lack of both placed it at zero. And you of course take damage in place of stamina loss if you do something draining with zero stamina.

so a) as long as you kept one topped up - like water, which is easier to do in level 3/4 due to the level 2 fountain - then you can survive. And if you lose both food and water for a time, then you can exist on stamina potions topping up your stamina level until you find any source of food/water.

So FTL actually had this bit balanced, just jaded players/designers looking to tweak the known playing style have added things like more stamina penalties or food/drink penalties to clones to make it tougher. But losing that well balanced thing that meant exploration and slow going was possible.

Edit: Alos welcome to the forum, though I see I've double posted with Ameena.

Edit2: Return to Chaos also suffers a little from mosnter AI in spellcasting monsters being upped, and their spell power increased. Not sure if you have encountered that yet, it's another thing that wasn't so harsh in the original DM.

[Ameena]

He's playing CSBWin - quote from the first page = "I wanted the true experience from my childhood, though, so the clear choice was Chaos Strikes Back for Windows..." .

[beowuuf]

Ok, only noticed RTC in a quick scan. Then the comment stands - you woulnd't/shouldn't have actually died through lack of food, or even food water, as long as stamina is kept topped up with potions.

[Stitch]

Perhaps I wasn't quite in the mortal peril that I perceived, and I did lean heavily on stamina potions to get me to the screamer room in the first place.

After the screamer room, I started brewing potions constantly to top off health and stamina. Not only did my party then stop ruthlessly consuming food, but they also gained some serious Priest ranks. Were I to do a second playthrough, I'd definitely adopt this strategy from the start (and I'm guessing I'd be surprised at how much food my dudes still have when they descend to the worm level).

As for Chaos Strikes Back: I'll probably give it a go at some point. It doesn't quite have the same personal nostalgia baggage that DM has, but playing DM was awesome enough to make me want to see where FTL took things next.

[RAF68]

interesting article

[Ameena]

Yeah, my two characters (I always just go with a duo party these days) spend the entirety of the first few levels on zero mana as I constantly have them attempting to cast various spells as soon as they have the mana to cast another rune .
Also, generally it's recommended that you reincarnate rather than resurrect your characters when playing DM since this means you end up with higher stats (only skill levels are reset when you reincarnate - stats remain the same), but we always just used to rez our characters back on the Atari and it turned out okay .
Should you manage to work your way through to the end of DM, you can then take your party through into CSB. There are characters provided with CSB that you can build a party with, but I've always preferred to keep the guys I'm familiar with and whom I've levelled up in DM .

[beowuuf]

You don't need flasks to attempt casting potions. You can keep casting until a spell fails, with the bonus that if you can't fail it you know you've mastered it. Not brilliantly efficient, but if you have mana to burn, it's definitely an option for learning.


A couple of poeple have attempted Chaos Strikes back recently - looking forward to another read!

[Stitch]

Hrm, I've done a bit more reading about CSB and it seems like it's even more of a departure from DM than I suspected. I figured CSB was a tougher set of maps that are less linear due to a more open structure and some randomness, but it sounds like it's much deeper and weirder than that. My play style tends to focus on clearing out areas and then moving on, which is a play style that by all reports CSB first mocks and then destroys while laughing.

Which is, of course, intriguing.

Quick question: when reading up on CSB around here it sounds like it took most you of a significant amount of time to initially beat it. I probably knocked out Dungeon Master in around fifteen hours, but it sounds like CSB can keep someone busy for well over 100, despite a quick glimpse at the CSB maps revealing that they don't appear to make for a longer game.

I know this is a question borne of utter naivety, but why does CSB take so much longer to beat?

And yes, for the actual CSB attempt I'll move all lines of inquiry to the CSB subforum!

[beowuuf]

If tyou are playing CSBwin, there are settings to help you know you have cleaned areas out!


CSB has videos that shows it being beat in insane times. It is more compact though not larger than DM - only 10 levels, many of which intersect with each other. I think it will take a while to beat, just because of the time needed to get familiar with it, and get the layout and tricks of it. And get some of the sneakier puzzles.

[Ameena]

Technically you can complete CSB much more quickly than DM (current speed records for both games are something like 20 mins or half an hour or something for DM, and about nine minutes for CSB), if you know what you're doing and where you're going and where everything is that you need to get - surprisingly few items, as it happens.
The thing with DM is that it's linear - you start at the top level and you progress through each level in order (apart from that one point where you need to backtrack to get the Firestaff after you've got all the necessary keys) until you complete the game down in the depths. With CSB there are less levels but you absolutely do not progress through them in a linear order - for example, you might be walking down a corridor on Level 8 and unknowingly pass through an invisible teleporter which moves you to somewhere on Level 4, then change your mind about walking down the corridor and attempt to backtrack, only to find you emerge into somewhere you certainly didn't just leave a few moments ago when you started walking down the corridor. There are pits and teleporters and shit going on all over the place, but there is a pattern to it - certain invisible teleporters will always be in the same place and move you to either the same location or one of maybe three or four possible locations, which might always link to the same places in turn, and so on. It's a matter of learning it and back in the day when there was no map, haha good luck with that
There are plenty of threads where other people have asked for help with CSB, since such a resource (ie, help from other people) is actually available nowadays . But feel free to start your own thread, of course, and let us know if you get stuck at any particular points. On the plus side, I suppose, if you do find yourself wandering aimlessly and starving to death, eventually your aimless wandering might drop you off in a room full of Worms or something .

[Stitch]

I've got to admit this all sounds pretty awesome. I really like the idea of a dungeon that breaks down the general concept of obvious forward progression and instead keeps you guessing.

I've got a few other games I want to knock out first as palate cleansers, but I definitely think CSB is in my future.

Thanks for the information!

[Ameena]

One more note on CSB - if you find yourself apparently spending more time wandering around, getting lost, being confused, and dying repeatedly than actually making progres, this is perfectly normal even if it isn't your first time in the game .

[Jan]

*rubs his hands* Another poor addictive potential victim of CSB! Muhahahahaha!

CSB is a masterpiece. One of the hardest but also most amazing games of all times.

Oh, and hello. I hope I'll find some time in the near future to read through your texts on DM.

[Stitch]

Just posted part five of my series, and edited my original post to include the link!

Yeah, we'll see how CSB goes as at no point during DM did I think, "man, I would be enjoying this game more if it were harder." But at the same time, I really like the idea of a somewhat punishing, randomized dungeon that is easy to get lost in. Back when I used to play Nethack I found my favorite games were those where I'd somehow get teleported or dropped into an unknown area and be forced to make sense of it all while fighting for survival.

[Jan]

I've just finished reading it. I really enjoyed it, it's well written and very funny in many places. I had to laugh many times, but two places stuck in my mind:

Spoiler

"I gave my champions a quick inspirational speech--"do it for the food, you voracious assholes!""

and

Spoiler

""Everything okay up there?" my fiancée asked from downstairs."

I'm looking forward to the sixth part - and then for the parts 1/732 and 2/732 of your CSB diary.

[Ameena]

Yay, Part Five . I notice that you must have taken the screenshots after completing the levels in which they're taken, since you have stuff like the Inquisitor and Shield of Lyte in your hands - stuff you can't access yet when you're working your way through Scorpions and Giant Rats for the first time .
And wow, you actually wore the Darc Armour and managed to do so without plunging straight into the red :O. I just tend to wear whatever crap I can carry without dropping into the yellow and I never bother with shields (I have both my chars carry a flask in their off-hand for the instant brewing of potions).
Rofl to your first inadvertant experience of Level 13 . Some years back I was playing DM myself and had got to the point where I was ready to take on Lord Chaos - I entered his room and looked around but couldn't see him nearby, so I saved the game, turned round and the bastard was right in my face! I actually squealed out loud and my mum yelled up from the kitchen to ask what had happened - "Um...something just made me jump in a computer game..." . This was a few years ago (within the last decade), so it's not like I was a little kid or anything (I'm 27 now), just so you know .

[beowuuf]

Heh, that was avery entertaining read! Looking forward to the last one!

The return of beholders was like a reunion with old friends, albeit one in which you kill said friends and raid their corpses.

Yeah, the rock monsters on level 3 are the first ones you have to change your tactics for really. I first encountered one in 'room of the guardian' and I recall thinking 'ooh, dungeon furniture' then backing away just as it whirtled at me. Weird and scary to be almost killed by a Star Trek creature! Ninja power - like jabs and punches - kills them so much bettre than normal weapon blows, and as you said dropping them in pits and dropping doors on them. Cool to see them again on level four at the start as an 'oh no' moment,. which will be topped whe nthe worms hit.

The worm teleporter corridor, I seem to recall there is a trigger close to generate more worms, so you really need to man up and fight the worms or teleport passed or else it gets tougher as a fight.

The snakes were a tennsion-enducing foe for me for an embarrassingly long time, and then it moved to the scorpions. It can be noise, speed, poison, etc, but something late at night just makes those sorts of critters feel very tough.

You're right about a DM fan and the interface, I love moving stuff in real time as much as possible, instead of it being more computer-like with right click menus. I guess it's just part of the feel of the game to me


Anyway, can't wait for the last one and as Jan says the CSB playthrough. I wonder how you'll find it, the feel of it is certainly very different to DM in many ways!

Edit: and again double posting with Ameena! Thoguh I hadn't refreshed for a while...

[Jan]

@Stitch: I've just checked your blog profile and - lol, now I understand why you chose CSBWin - you're from the same city as Paul Stevens, the creator of this engine!

[Stitch]

Yay, Part Five . I notice that you must have taken the screenshots after completing the levels in which they're taken, since you have stuff like the Inquisitor and Shield of Lyte in your hands - stuff you can't access yet when you're working your way through Scorpions and Giant Rats for the first time .

I knew someone here would notice that! Yeah, these blog entires started out as a series of notes on my playthrough, and it wasn't until I was done that I noticed that it could all be reworked with screen caps (which I hadn't been collecting) into a solid collection of articles. I had a few save games scattered around that allowed me to recreate some of the shots, but I did have to backtrack from my pre-dragon save to fake the rest.

And wow, you actually wore the Darc Armour and managed to do so without plunging straight into the red :O. I just tend to wear whatever crap I can carry without dropping into the yellow and I never bother with shields (I have both my chars carry a flask in their off-hand for the instant brewing of potions).

Yeah, I don't think I'd bother with shields now, as the hassle of swapping them in and out with each potion I'd brew frankly wasn't worth it. Elija was in the yellow with the Darc armor--he was, oddly enough, my strongest character--but it never turned into too much of a detriment due to the fact that the game was almost done. Again, I now don't think the hassle of some of the heavier armor is worth it.

Rofl to your first inadvertant experience of Level 13 . Some years back I was playing DM myself and had got to the point where I was ready to take on Lord Chaos - I entered his room and looked around but couldn't see him nearby, so I saved the game, turned round and the bastard was right in my face! I actually squealed out loud and my mum yelled up from the kitchen to ask what had happened - "Um...something just made me jump in a computer game..." . This was a few years ago (within the last decade), so it's not like I was a little kid or anything (I'm 27 now), just so you know .

Yeah, it's weird: I've played tons of games in the past sixteen years since I first purchased a PC, and quite a few of them were fluid first person games that attempt to convey a sense of you-are-there horror, and nothing has quite gottem my blood pumping like coming face to face with Chaos!

Heh, that was avery entertaining read! Looking forward to the last one!

Thanks!

Yeah, the rock monsters on level 3 are the first ones you have to change your tactics for really. I first encountered one in 'room of the guardian' and I recall thinking 'ooh, dungeon furniture' then backing away just as it whirtled at me. Weird and scary to be almost killed by a Star Trek creature! Ninja power - like jabs and punches - kills them so much bettre than normal weapon blows, and as you said dropping them in pits and dropping doors on them. Cool to see them again on level four at the start as an 'oh no' moment,. which will be topped whe nthe worms hit.

I touch on this briefly in my write-up, but one thing that really impresses me about DM is how well realized it is. The game is paced incredibly well in the way it doles out new experiences with monsters and increasingly less linear levels. DM doesn't really tell an explicit story throughout, but there is a certain story contained within the structure of the game--the story of the dungeon, if you will. It's the push and pull of monsters and traps and resource management and events that create the framework in which we find our own stories--my guys almost starving to death on the worm level, for example, or that "holy crap" moment of stumbling across Chaos for the first time.

FTL really knew what they were doing, despite DM being their first attempt at a game like this in a genre that wasn't yet created.

Anyway, can't wait for the last one and as Jan says the CSB playthrough. I wonder how you'll find it, the feel of it is certainly very different to DM in many ways!

Again, thanks! I think DM takes what it does about as far as it can, so I'm looking forward to a dungeon with a completely different angle.

@Stitch: I've just checked your blog profile and - lol, now I understand why you chose CSBWin - you're from the same city as Paul Stevens, the creator of this engine!

Heh, that was a happy coincidence (although I probably owe the guy a drink or something now!) I picked CSBWin as research indicated it was the most authentic port of DM, and authenticity was what I was going for.

[Stitch]

Aaaaand I have now published part six, the stirring conclusion (link in in the original post)

Final Party stats:

Zed Duke of Banville
<< Master Fighter
Craftsman Ninja
Expert Priest
Expert Wizard

Wu Tse Son of Heaven
Artisan Fighter
Artisan Ninja
Expert Priest
<< Master Wizard

Elija Lion of Yaitopya
<< Master Fighter
Craftsman Ninja
Expert Priest
Expert Wizard

Boris Wizard of Baldor
Artisan Fighter
Artisan Ninja
Adept Priest
Expert Wizard

Best computer game ever? Quite possibly!

[Jan]

Finished reading. Good stuff!

You're right that the backstory was rather weak - but meh, who cares.

Re ending: DM actually has two weaknesses - the backstory, and the ending "sequence." Maybe you don't know that DM for PC had an ending "animation" (see e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y472s2deb0) but it's even more "meh" than the scrolling text. But of course it doesn't matter - the creators simply concentrated on the game itself which of course was a good choice.

[Ameena]

Yaay, cool you finished . And those are reasonable skill levels at which to have finished the game - I think when I finish, my chars are between Adept and Lo Master in everything except Ninja, which gets mostly neglected.
Anyway, I just read the final entry in your DM saga and found it entertaining like the previous five - I'm looking forward to see what you make of CSB. If you do manage to lose any (or all) party members within the first thirty seconds of starting the game, don't worry about it - we've all been there (at least, I assume I have - it was quite a long time ago so I can't really remember) .

[beowuuf]

Nice ending there The backstory and character names have some nice hooks without being too involved, enough that a few of us now have managed to play RPGs in the Dm world without feeling too restrained - and yet always having a theme to hang it on. The twist was something I somehow knew about, so the real surprise was once taking the passage back to level 1 once I reread the manual many years later and realised the implication of the story was to go back to the start.

Must admit it took the initial dragon steak from level 9 to convince me the dragon was a beatable foe, for so long I used to chase him aroudn the level with fear effects and trap him and fear him (or her, I actually made him a her in any backstory I wrote). Sad the first time I killeds the dragon after that, the level seemed to empty!


Wedding or CSB...whcih will be the bigger challenge? Good luck with both! Still lughing about the phoning versus saving the world

[Stitch]

Glad you guys enjoyed the series, I had a blast writing them! And that phoning vs saving the world bit was not a fictitious embellishment, believe me

As for the backstory, the story itself really isn't that bad--it does the trick to get us in the dungeon and then pops up nicely at the very end--but I did find the writing style of the story itself a little overdone, to put it charitably. But the author then went on to score better paying writing gigs than I've ever had, so who am I to judge?

I did watch the PC ending animation, which is pretty slow and bizarre. The original ending bit wasn't exactly incredible, but it was respectable for a game of that era.

As for CSB, I'm already feeling the pull. I've decided to truly embrace the CSB experience and try to play it with a minimum of interference from online maps or walkthroughs (not that I relied on either heavily for my DM playthrough, but I did use both sometimes for reference). By all accounts CSB is tough and non-linear in a way that will be ruined by spoilers, so I'm going to try to do this right.

[Gambit37]

I've now read all 6 entries: this was a cool series, I enjoyed your writing style and there are some fun anecdotes in there. Thanks for sharing, it's always great to see people come back to DM and finally beat it

Interesting that you mention the author of the back-story (Nancy Holder) going on to better things. It's my understanding that at the time of DM she hadn't much published as was still 'aspiring' so I don't think we should be too harsh on her. And yes, as you say, she went on to much better things. By her own account, it was Wayne who helped her through those early years (well he would being her husband and all) and I get the impression she may have given up writing, without his support. I've not read any of her novels (not my sort of thing) so I don't know what her style is like these days -- anyone?

Stitch, I'm also interested that in some of your other blog posts you mention writing a book. Can you tell us more? Is that the graphic novel you linked to?

[Stitch]

Interesting that you mention the author of the back-story (Nancy Holder) going on to better things. It's my understanding that at the time of DM she hadn't much published as was still 'aspiring' so I don't think we should be too harsh on her. And yes, as you say, she went on to much better things. By her own account, it was Wayne who helped her through those early years (well he would being her husband and all) and I get the impression she may have given up writing, without his support. I've not read any of her novels (not my sort of thing) so I don't know what her style is like these days -- anyone?

I haven't read any of her books either, as they're mostly novels set in television shows I've never watched. But I'll say this much: her writing in the CSB back story is considerably better, so it looks like she was on the right track.

Stitch, I'm also interested that in some of your other blog posts you mention writing a book. Can you tell us more? Is that the graphic novel you linked to?

Yeah, the graphic novel is a work in progress but the script itself was finished awhile ago (although I've been tinkering with it ever since). There's not much of the graphic novel live at the moment--it's little more than a teaser--but we're almost ready to put up the next installment. Beyond the graphic novel I do have some barely-started prose novels I've been kicking around for awhile, and I'd love to start focusing on one of those soon.

And also: be a little careful heading back in my blog, as back in the wilds of 2008 I seemed to harbor some sort of desire to be a political commentator. I don't disown those posts or anything but they are (1) humorless, (2) heavily political, and (3) an utter product of their time. I certainly think I have more to offer writing as I am now.

But thanks for the feedback and thanks for the questions!