New player: How to use the interface better

[Erik Twice]

Hello! I'm playing Dungeon Master for the first time and, while I'm enjoying the game tremendously, I'm not sure if the problems I have with the interface are due to my lack of experience, not knowing better or simply flaws of the original game. And I wondered if you could help me out.

For example: Is there a way to just "give" items to a character without opening the whole inventory screen? What about arrows? If I shoot 4 arrows, do I have to open and close the inventory four times to pick them all up?

It seems very difficult to cast spells and fight at the same time. Any suggestions on how to handle it? I suspect this is intentional

I also didn't realize I didn't have DM Rules checked (I'm playing through CBSWin). Will checking them now have any effect? I'm writing about the game and I don't want to get the wrong impression about the game's difficulty.

Thanks! Would appeeciate help a lot

[Ameena]

Hi, welcome to the forum . Let's see if I can give some advice and responses to your queries...

In case you aren't aware, it's possible to use the keyboard as well as the mouse, in case you've been just clicking everything. The top or bottom (I forget) six buttons of the numpad map to the directional buttons so you can use those to move around which frees up the cursor for speedier clicking on things in the view window. You can also use number keys in place of clicking on spell runes if you like (numbers 1-6, naturally ).

I don't recall any way to put items in a character's inventory without opening it. Note that if you just right-click with the cursor in a random place on the screen (but not over a character portrait), you will go to the inventory screen of whichever character's name is currently highlighted in yellow - this is the party leader and it's also their hand you're using in the main view, so if you pick up and chuck items there it will be that character wh gains Ninja exp for doing so. You can change the leader at any time by clicking on a different character's name.

And yes, you do have to individually pick up every item from a pile on the floor - item stacks and such-like hadn't been invented yet when this game came out .

On "casting spells and fighting at the same time", you know you can prepare spells in advance? Get everyone with a Fireball lined up and ready to go, rest a bit to regain the mana, and then you can quickly boom-boom-boom-boom lob all four Fireballs at once when you next run into something nasty . Otherwise it's just a matter of manoeuvring around and speed-clicking to fight stuff - you don't have to just stand in one place and tank everything and in fact doing so is probably a bad idea if you're facing something that hits really hard . The "step-dance", or whatever you want to call it, is a common tactic amongst experienced players when facing a single creature (or a group clustered together such that they only take up one square) - get into an area that is at least a 2x2 square, have themonster come toward you, hit them and immediately sidestep, then turn to face the square you just left. The monster(s) will step into that square, so you can hit them in the side, then sidestep-and-turn again before they get a chance to whack you in return. Repeat until they are dead at pretty much zero threat to yourself unless something else sneaks up on you .

The "DM Rules" setting, as far as I remember, affects one main thing in CSBWin - as you can probably guess from the name, CSBWin was made from CSB first and then DM was added in as well or something, so the base engine is CSB. Not really all that different from DM except that if/when you recruit champions from a mirror, they take a hit to their max hp or something. Turning on "DM Rules" prevents this from happening and so stops you from having an inadvertent disadvantage in the game. I think that's the only difference so once you've recruited your party it should be okay. But I always turn it on anyway. Just in case .

Note that DM is basically "tutorial mode" compared to CSB so it generally takes things pretty easy on you for the first couple of levels or so, after which it starts to ramp up. But still nowhere near to the point of most of CSB .

[slickrcbd]

Hello! I'm playing Dungeon Master for the first time and, while I'm enjoying the game tremendously, I'm not sure if the problems I have with the interface are due to my lack of experience, not knowing better or simply flaws of the original game. And I wondered if you could help me out.

For example: Is there a way to just "give" items to a character without opening the whole inventory screen? What about arrows? If I shoot 4 arrows, do I have to open and close the inventory four times to pick them all up?

It depends on what version of the game you are playing. In the Apple IIGS version you could click on an item, then click on the 3 health/stamina/mana bars and the item would be deposited in the first available item slot.
Other versions of the game for other systems did not necessarily implement this. I can't recall if the PC version did or not, but the PC version works on Windows 98SE without DOSBOX, and it works on 2000 and later with DOSBox.

Sorry if that doesn't help much, I tend to be biased towards the IIGS version because I spent way too much time playing Dungeon Master on my Apple IIGS back in grade school when I should have been doing my homework. I can't believe it's been 30 years.

It seems very difficult to cast spells and fight at the same time. Any suggestions on how to handle it? I suspect this is intentional

The first trick is to prepare spells in advance.
The second is to learn to use the keyboard. You can maneuver and attack with the keyboard, while preparing spells with the mouse. CSBWin I'm pretty sure provides keyboard shortcuts for casting spells as well.
In any case, you really want to maneuver using the keyboard instead of the mouse, it's much easier to get the timing right.

[slickrcbd]

Note that DM is basically "tutorial mode" compared to CSB so it generally takes things pretty easy on you for the first couple of levels or so, after which it starts to ramp up. But still nowhere near to the point of most of CSB .

I agree that levels 2 and 3 are kinda tutorial levels, I breezed through them, then I hit the worm level and was slaughtered by the worms. It was a wake-up call until I figured out what I now now is called the step-dance (the World Wide Web did not exist back then). Actually, I did not get truly slaughtered until the end of level 4 with "This is my prisoner, let him suffer" when all those worms would appear. I swear level 5 was much easier even if the pit and teleporter mazes are annoying.
Even in "Creature Cavern" on level 3, I mostly got by with hit and run, tossing ranged attacks at the trollins and mummies, and the rockpiles I would wail on, then retreat to heal up, or lure them to a door or the pit in The Vault (probably the easiest tactic, but you don't get as much experience).

[Ancalagon]

Hi there.

Actually, I did not get truly slaughtered until the end of level 4 with "This is my prisoner, let him suffer" when all those worms would appear.

As soon as you kill the mummy the wall right to the mummy disappears. Just stand where you are and wait... The worms will eventually come to the square where the mummy was. Grill them with fireballs. Happy barbecuing! Wait long enough and you will get them all!

Spoiler

BTW, you know, that the room to the left before you reach the field before the mummy is some kind of training room? There is a monster generator in it. It is triggered when you leave the room and go back the corridor some steps. Turn around, enter the room again and é voila, more screamers. I usually power up my party until they all reach "Expert" in all four categories.

Hope this helped a bit.

[Ameena]

Once you've played the game once and know what all the spells are, things become easier on future playthroughs as you can then use more powerful attack spells much earlier in the game. One in particular I'm thinking of which I expect most people use, but the scroll for which isn't found until halfway through the dungeon.

[slickrcbd]

I conquered the worm level 30 years ago. I'm just saying I still recall that it seemed to jump an order of magnitude in difficulty. Heck, I'd say that fight at the end I mentioned is the hardest one in the game. Then again, I found the fight against the Red Dragon to be an anticlimax boss, but I'm not sure he'd be such a pushover without at least two magic boxes, (or the Eye of Time) and MON or PAL level VEN potions plus every FUL bomb in the game.
The fight at the end of the worm level and trapping Lord Chaos while dodging demons and black flames are the two hardest, and you expect the latter one to be the hardest.

On the subject of early spells, I recall spending time in the "Kid's Dungeon" just going through all the combinations to discover all the spells and writing them down. Then figuring out what each one did. Well, me and the friend who introduced me to DM, and we were both convinced we missed something as we never found a combination that used GOR. Yes, I know NOW, but back before the internet (technically just the WWW) you couldn't just hit GameFAQS.com and look it up. This was 1989-1990, and the web was not invented until 1993 and wasn't really known until Eternal September in 1994.
I did not figure out what OH EW SAR did until I got the scroll, and even then I thought it was bugged. Also YA BRO and YA IR were not obvious what they shielded against. Even today I somewhat doubt their effectiveness, or the effectiveness of having shields in the off-hand even though I've seen reports on the boards that they do reduce damage like armor.

[Erik Twice]

Thank you all for your tips! It's very much what I was looking for.

On "casting spells and fighting at the same time", you know you can prepare spells in advance?

No, I didn't! How do I do that? If I unput the spell, it just fires, right?

Note that DM is basically "tutorial mode" compared to CSB so it generally takes things pretty easy on you for the first couple of levels or so, after which it starts to ramp up. But still nowhere near to the point of most of CSB .

It's very much a tutorial so far, but it's a great, engaging tutorial. In fact, it's what has driven me to play the game and to write about it. It's really well made.

I'm also a bit torn between mapping or not. I like mapping. but the levels are a bit too big and unlike Wizardry, the game runs on real-time so it's uncomfortable.

I have discovered a spell that does damage, though I'm not sure how it works yet! Guess I'll need to explore more

[Ancalagon]

No, I didn't! How do I do that? If I unput the spell, it just fires, right?

Just click the single runes you need for the spell for ech character, don't click in the field the runes are collected in.

I'm also a bit torn between mapping or not. I like mapping. but the levels are a bit too big and unlike Wizardry, the game runs on real-time so it's uncomfortable.

Right mouse click, then click the disc-symbol. The game pauses, you can draw your map. Continue.

[Phoenix]

On the subject of early spells, I recall spending time in the "Kid's Dungeon" just going through all the combinations to discover all the spells and writing them down. Then figuring out what each one did. Well, me and the friend who introduced me to DM, and we were both convinced we missed something as we never found a combination that used GOR. Yes, I know NOW, but back before the internet (technically just the WWW) you couldn't just hit GameFAQS.com and look it up. This was 1989-1990, and the web was not invented until 1993 and wasn't really known until Eternal September in 1994.

The oldest FAQ's did exist prior to the opening of the internet to commercial sites. They were available on usenet and on BBS's which is where I got them. Lot's of stuff was availble via listservers/bitnet and gopher/ftp long before WWW started to take off. The first time I compiled Mosaic, there was very little devoted to WWW and it was text only SGML.

In regards to controls, if you are using CSBwin, the config.txt file controls the assignment of keys. I use the number keys for the runes and spacebar to cast.

mscan 1 0031 f0 37 L ; '1' = first rune
mscan 1 0032 fe 37 L ; '2' = second rune
mscan 1 0033 10a 37 L ; '3' = third rune
mscan 1 0034 11d 37 L ; '4' = fourth rune
mscan 1 0035 128 37 L ; '5' = fifth rune
mscan 1 0036 136 37 L ; '6' = sixth rune
mscan 1 00c0 136 43 L ; '~' = backspace rune
mscan 1 0020 10d 41 L ; space = cast spell

You can change the keys here as well. To get the scan code for the keys, start CSBwin and select size = 1 in the Misc tab. Press the desired key and the code will be displayed. Then edit the config.txt and change the four digit code after "mscan 1". You can set keys to directly jump to each player's inventory and spell entry. It's so much faster to use keys than the mouse.

[Prince of Elves]

Right mouse click, then click the disc-symbol. The game pauses, you can draw your map. Continue.

Just hitting 'Esc' will do the same trick. And I prefer mapping even now when practically all of the maps can be found on the web. It tends to be tedious, but some spots I never find looking at a complete map.

[Ameena]

Slickrcbd - <spoiler>The Dragon is absolutely possible to kill without anyting fancy. I don't think I've ever used a Magic Box in either game except early on when I was trying them out. Same for most magic items, really. The Dragon is easily killable with the good old step-dance (melée him in a 2x2 square, sidestepping and turning every time he turns to face you) in which you can kill him purely with melée attacks - the trickiest part is locating him in the first place since sometimes you end up doing that via getting a Fireball to the face .</spoiler>

With mapping, you can indeed pause the game just by pressing Escape. I think DM would be relatively easy to map because it doesn't have too many places where you get ported around or whatever, so it's pretty straightforward to keep track of where you are. In CSB, not so much .

[slickrcbd]

I'm also a bit torn between mapping or not. I like mapping. but the levels are a bit too big and unlike Wizardry, the game runs on real-time so it's uncomfortable.

I have discovered a spell that does damage, though I'm not sure how it works yet! Guess I'll need to explore more

You can pause the game by hitting [ESC], at least in the IIGS version. The key mapping might be different in CSB Win, but there IS a pause. Also it is paused when on the "save game" screen.

If you don't use the maps in the hint book, you'll really want to map it yourself. Although that can be difficult in parts due to the invisible teleporters like on level 11 "The Clockwise Room", or even the visible ones like on level 5 "Treasure Stores", but it will help you.
On the other hand I did make it to level 5 without mapping when I was a kid. I only started mapping when I was trying to crack the pit maze and the teleporter maze.

However, once you've beaten the game, I do suggest looking at the hint book for secrets you missed. I know I missed quite a few. I did not discover illusionary walls until level 9 "Pain Rats", and even then it was on accident when I was frustrated because I could not find a switch or pressure plate needed to progress. Took me some time to find it.
That also means I missed all the earlier ones (not that there were many). I eventually got the hint book when it was on closeout for something like $1 (I could have sworn it was one of the after-Christmas sales, but my memory isn't that good), although the second edition hint book's solution for the pit maze has errors and does not work for the second room.

Slickrcbd - <spoiler>The Dragon is absolutely possible to kill without anyting fancy. I don't think I've ever used a Magic Box in either game except early on when I was trying them out. Same for most magic items, really. The Dragon is easily killable with the good old step-dance (melée him in a 2x2 square, sidestepping and turning every time he turns to face you) in which you can kill him purely with melée attacks - the trickiest part is locating him in the first place since sometimes you end up doing that via getting a Fireball to the face .</spoiler>

Lol, I once strolled down the stairs to the dragon's den and was promptly greeted by a massive fireball to the face as he was right there waiting at the base of the stairs. I hadn't even put my fireshield up so it really hurt (as in several party members got injuries and needed VI potion).
No room for step-dance as I couldn't leave the stairs since he was right there.

As for magic boxes, I take it you never found the secret room near the beginning of level 6? You need to expend a magic box on some monsters in order to open the door, although I did not figure that out until I obtained the hint book something like two years after getting the game.

[terkio]

The use of a magic box you refer to, is the only place in DM where you do no need a magic box.
But, it is not necessary, what you get is not a must.

[slickrcbd]

The use of a magic box you refer to, is the only place in DM where you do no need a magic box.
But, it is not necessary, what you get is not a must.

I know, I beat the game without ever figuring out that puzzle. It was not until I got the hint book that I learned of that secret.
Heck, I think that particular puzzle and fighting the dragon are the only places where I ever use them consistently.
I tend to horde my consumables (items with charges or things that get used up) for the rare times when I'm out of mana and wind up unexpectedly attacked by at least two groups of monsters I cannot flee from (I can't ever recall being unable to flee from a single monster group. By group I mean monsters sharing the same square). Most games I never need it.
Then I decide to unload everything on the red dragon. FUL Bombs, Fury, Stormring, Bolt Blade, VEN potions, etc. Time to use a magic box as well to keep him in the VEN cloud.

One thing I do recall. I had a single friend who also owned Dungeon Master. It was from playing it at his house that I got it as I really liked the game. He had warned me that the red dragon was really tough and he had a hard time beating him. I had horded my supplies from there, and apparently over-prepared because I found him to be an anti-climax boss and felled him easily by going all out and treating him like the final boss in other games. Mangar from Bard's Tale was a more worthy opponent.

[Phoenix]

Mangar from Bard's Tale was a more worthy opponent.

I'd beg to differ. I was tremendously disappointed when I was able to spell bind Mangar into my party. Fighting all those berzerkers was fun though.

[Saumun]

As much as I loved The Bard's Tale (not trying to change the topic here), I too felt a little disappointed when the battle with Mangar only lasted a single turn.

[slickrcbd]

Yeah, I had more trouble with some of the larger groups of random mooks just getting to Mangar, the final battle wasn't that tough.
DMST was OP in that game, probably why they got rid of it in later games along with REDE. They made the strongest demons and undead a joke respectively. SPBI also almost never failed on anything, and using SPBI on the Soul Sucker in the catacombs tended to make the game much easier.
Yet I was still disappointed that I could not use those spells in the later games.
The Soul Sucker was by far the strongest enemy/boss in the game.
I'd tried once with my party that was able to handle Mangar with ease going back to the catacombs and the soul sucker was still able to give me a challenge since it could strike first.