Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.

[terkio]

5.25" disks, Dos 3.3, that's Jurassic ware.

[slickrcbd]

Actually was till in use when I first got Dungeon Master. DOS 3.3 (Apple II DOS 3.3, NOT MS-DOS 3.30, which I also have a copy of and for some reason it does indeed boot up and display "MS-DOS 3.30" with the trailing zero) was more commonly used with Apple II family games than ProDOS for various reasons (chiefly it was smaller, used less memory, and slightly faster especially in boot time, but lacked advanced filesystems like folders or support for anything but 5.25" SSSD disks) if they did not use a custom OS and filesystem for copy protection.

Anyways, while technically DOS 3.3 was obsolete when Dungeon Master came out, it was still in common usage at the time for gaming on the Apple IIe family. New games were being published using that OS or variants of it (for copy protection.)

[Prince of Elves]

at the time, I was simply not aware of just how much faster you can gain Healer levels by creating stamina potions (for those who are not aware, stamina potion spells give more than twice as many experience points per mana point consumed than any other spell in the game).

I've been wondering every once in a while (never enough to actually go looking and doing the math myself though ). Mana potions are quite expensive, but they do give back part of the mana that was consumed while doing the spell (never actually checked how much either, but I'd guess about half the amount at LO level, definitely worse at higher levels). So when considering the EXP gain per mana cost one would have to consider that part as well. Don't think it will be as much as YA potions though but since you like to have it precise (I can actually relate to that, so no offense meant) I thought I'd mention it.

[jayrshaw]

at the time, I was simply not aware of just how much faster you can gain Healer levels by creating stamina potions (for those who are not aware, stamina potion spells give more than twice as many experience points per mana point consumed than any other spell in the game).

I've been wondering every once in a while (never enough to actually go looking and doing the math myself though ). Mana potions are quite expensive, but they do give back part of the mana that was consumed while doing the spell (never actually checked how much either, but I'd guess about half the amount at LO level, definitely worse at higher levels). So when considering the EXP gain per mana cost one would have to consider that part as well. Don't think it will be as much as YA potions though but since you like to have it precise (I can actually relate to that, so no offense meant) I thought I'd mention it.

I just experimented with the EE Potions (mana potions), and it looks like the Ma Potions (stamina potions) are still going to be a lot better if you are mainly looking to gain experience. A Lo level (i.e., Level 1) EE potion costs 21 mana; however, drinking the potion restores ~10 mana, so you have a net cost of ~11 mana for casting the spell after drinking the potion. Based on the spell experience table Maven posted in the "!! Some NEW tricks !!" thread of this forum, you should get 80-87 base experience points for casting a Lo level EE potion spell. So, for the mana potion, you are spending ~11 net mana to get 80-87 base experience points. Contrast this with a Mon level (i.e., Level 6) stamina potion, which costs 13 mana points and nets you 272-279 base experience points, and you can see that the stamina potions still come out ahead by a big margin. I also tried creating a couple of Mon mana potions and discovered that they only restored 24-26 mana points each, leaving the net cost of the spell at 49-51 mana points (far too high to compete with the experience/mana efficiency of the stamina potion spells).


--Jay

[Prince of Elves]

Ah OK thanks, with the mana potion I expected as much, and I even underestimated the EXP gain for stamina potions. So you're right: if it is purely about EXP, then YA potion it is.

[jayrshaw]

Hi all,

I'm just writing to confirm that once all of your characters reach 280 maximum mana points (and therefore 8 mana points per mana recovery increment), you definitely can create Mon level (i.e., Level 6) stamina potions endlessly without ever running out of mana, provided that you have Dane potion wisdom buffs up and remain in the character inventory menu the entire time while you are casting spells.


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Oh, I should have mentioned in my last post that even at high maximum mana levels with Dane potion wisdom buffs up, you can't just cast stamina potions endlessly with a single character without running out of mana. What I meant to say is that if you have four characters and rotate between them when casting stamina potion spells, your party as a whole will be recovering mana faster than you are consuming it by creating the stamina potions.


--Jay

[MasterWuuf]

Since I found what I considered easier ways than making hundreds of these priestly potions, to build up my characters, I never spent a lot of time training this way.

However, the 'test your strength' puzzle was much easier after quaffing a few strength potions. The strength potions also, if you had a good way to get to water, sometimes helped when I was lugging/carrying all those heavy extras from one area to another.

[jayrshaw]

Since I found what I considered easier ways than making hundreds of these priestly potions, to build up my characters, I never spent a lot of time training this way.

However, the 'test your strength' puzzle was much easier after quaffing a few strength potions. The strength potions also, if you had a good way to get to water, sometimes helped when I was lugging/carrying all those heavy extras from one area to another.

What was your training method for Healer levels? Were you using one of the actions that teaches Healer experience (e.g., War Cry, Calm, Brandish, etc.) or were you just casting non-potion spells?


--Jay

[MasterWuuf]

The War Cry seemed to help when I intentionally found ways to hurry down levels, skipping much of the fighting, then coming up to clean up the beasties.

P.S. I always tried to save the game just before leveling up, to make sure I received the best results when I did level up.

[jayrshaw]

Yeah - during my last playthrough, I gained my Healer levels exclusively by using the War Cry technique. I still use it for Fighter levels and like getting the extra Healer experience as a bonus, but I've found that I can get Healer levels a lot faster by casting stamina potion spells. I have to admit that I do dislike going back and forth between the spell menu, the characters' hands, and the characters' mouths repeatedly when creating the potions, though (especially if I have to do it for an extended period of time)...


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

In most versions you can use the keyboard to cast spells, so you only need to use the mouse to go from the character's hands to their mouths.
What keys depends on what version of the game. IIGS, PC, CSBWin, and RTC all use different keymaps.

[Paul Stevens]

CSBwin allows you to define your keymap. Moreover, it
allows you to define keys to simulate mouse movement and
mouse left/right clicks. So you should be able to do your
potions using only the keyboard.

[jayrshaw]

Well, I've been doing it with an SNES controller, and I can say that repeating the spell menu / hand / mouth action over and over again with an SNES controller definitely stresses my hand out more over a long period of time than just hitting the action button repeatedly with the occasional break to cast Magic Torch spells and refresh my Dane Potion wisdom buffs. I also find that I also frequently tend to make minor mistakes when I am trying to move the cursor quickly to perform these actions (e.g., I will often accidentally move the cursor too far and pick up a character's chest armor instead of the potion in their right hand).


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

It's a built-in anti-grinding measure!
Although this is why I don't do a lot of grinding. In addition to getting bored which is the primary reason. Unless there's some trick where I can set it up to grind while I walk away and do something else like sleep (like holding down a key/button at some specific point in the game). To my knowledge Dungeon Master doesn't have that.

[jayrshaw]

I've read posts from people who train using custom controllers which automatically press a given controller button repeatedly. You would still have to periodically deal with giving your characters food and water and replace your food/water reserves when they run out, though. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I find that it's a lot less unpleasant if I listen to my music collection while training...


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

I've never seen a Dungeon Master cartridge, but I think I tried a pirated copy of the SNES version once, but I just couldn't get used to the interface after so many years on the computer relying on the keyboard.

[jayrshaw]

I kind of grew up playing the video game consoles, so that's what I'm used to. My wife got me to play a few PC adventure games with her, but most of the RPGs and action/adventure games I've played have been on the NES, SNES, and Playstation 1-3 systems...


--Jay

[MasterWuuf]

When I originally played DM, it was on an Atari ST (later on a Mega). I don't remember why I could do it, but I taped a number of nickels in a stack, and left it on one of the keyboard buttons. I could walk away for awhile and it would keep repeating a command. Leveled up with no swollen finger joints. Ha.

Still wonder how that was possible. I found my DM stuff, along with my stack of nickels, years back. I somehow lost most of my original DM boxes (and shamefully, my COIN, waaaaahhh). A few years back (had to be over 10-years, since I had not found this group yet) I found some of my original hand-drawn maps, lightly-drawn ink squares. That brought back some great memories. All those 'lost' spells were written down, along with the 'priestly' spells.

[jayrshaw]

I remember making handwritten maps on graph paper when I first played this game nearly 20 years ago, too. I must have lost them (along with the instruction booklet for the game) a long time ago, because I can't find them in the area where I keep all of my video game paraphernalia.


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

I was helping my mom clean out her attic and basement and we found a container with a bunch of old game notes that I thought was lost in the early 2000's.
Quite a treasure trove. Hand-made maps on graph paper, little 5x3 notepads filled with notes on games such as the combining the three parts of the Green Message or things like "Pass the light at night".
Ah, the days before gamefaqs when you had to figure it all out yourself.