where did Lord Chaos get his Skeletons from?

[Leslie]

The DM manual, at least the German one, stated that Lord Chaos created many of the creatures in the dungeon out of the heroes who had entered the dungeon. As a "reminder" for others not to enter it.

The DM dungeon features many Skeletons. The Skeleton appears to be the most common creature in the dungeon. As we know, Skeletons are equipped with a falchion and a wooden shield. Wikipedia references the falchion to be a low quality weapon, mainly used by commoners and peasants. Wooden shields on the other hand also appear to be cheaper and easier to get than metal shields.

Therefore I am wondering... did Chaos strip all the heroes of their valuable, high quality equipment, turn them into Skeletons and equipped them with cheap trash? Or were the guys entering the dungeon in fact not heroes, but just curious peasants wondering what would be inside of Mount Anaias?
If the latter is the case, then where did the heroes go? Obviously one was turned into a mummy and placed on level 4 to suffer.
Maybe fighters were turned to trollins. Not to animated armors of course, as these are empty. Ninjas must have become gigglers. Wizards... vexirks maybe? Although this would mean only four wizards had entered the dungeon. And for priests I have no clue.

[jayrshaw]

My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I seem to recall that the manual for the SNES version of the game (which I lost long ago) basically stated that the heroes who attempted to explore Mount Anaias and died in the process were somehow preserved and trapped inside the mirrors in the Hall of Champions on Floor 0 of the dungeon. If I recall correctly, the SNES manual stated that the mirrors in the Hall of Champions displaying fallen heroes were supposed to serve as a warning to would-be explorers to dissuade them from entering the dungeon. It could be that the manuals for the game vary from country to country, but it's also possible that I'm just not remembering the part about past explorers of the dungeon being transformed into monsters....


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

Well, the manual is here
http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/412
I've only read the IIGS version.

[jayrshaw]

Thanks, slickrcbd! The part I was referring to is apparently on Image 17 of 52 of the manual. According to the manual, the Grey Lord sent a few hundred champions into the dungeon; out of these few hundred, Chaos selected 24 champions to hang on display in the Hall of Champions in a "dead and yet not dead" state to serve as a warning to others...


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

Also the next page says that only some of the monsters used to be champions.
Plus, we know that the screamers and pain rats regenerate, so they come from something else. Presumably the pain rats are just enlarged regular rats while screamers might be transformed/mutated mushrooms.
I would assume the magenta worms are similarly mutated worms.

[Leslie]

So, this would mean Skeletons do not come from champions (or peasants), as they also regenerate.
Creatures which do not regenerate are rare... we have Vexirks, Rusters, Animated armors, Stone golems, Demons, the Red Dragon and Lord Chaos himself. Maybe the champions got transformed into the Humanoid forms of these?

[MasterWuuf]

I know I read the original manual for the Atari. Still, I don't remember anything that said some of the monsters were fallen champions. If that's the case, those fire demons on the Lord Chaos level would be wonderful candidates to contemplate.

[MasterWuuf]

One other creature that I just thought about; the wasps. I can't remember them regenerating. It made me wonder, if they were originally heroes or peasants, who or what class might they have been?

[jayrshaw]

The wasps on Floor 10 of the dungeon do regenerate (I remember being surprised by a group of them after I returned to the wasp area after clearing it out the other day)...


--Jay

[Leslie]

There's also a regenerating wasp on level 6 in the room where the crossbow is found.

[terkio]

In Dungeon Keeper, creatures come from a portal.
Spiders, Roaches, Goblins, Trolls, Demons.
Skeletons, Ghosts, Vampires come from killed and tortured heroes.

[Ameena]

Yeah, but this isn't Dungeon Keeper, it's Dungeon Master . Also, you forgot Imps, which are created directly by the Keeper via a magic spell .

[slickrcbd]

I was playing Dungeon Master almost 10 years before Dungeon Keeper was released. They are apples and oranges.

[MasterWuuf]

slickrcbd: "I was playing Dungeon Master almost 10 years before Dungeon Keeper was released. They are apples and oranges."

Oops. Did this thread ever take a left turn into the unknown. Ha.

P.S. (Leslie) Now I'm racking my brain, trying to remember where that crossbow is located, so I can find the place of that regenerating wasp.
Hmmm. Could that be the room with the metal gate that keeps closing while you try to enter the room? The level just before the RA gates? With the button on the far wall that opens the gate from the inside?

[slickrcbd]

(Leslie) Now I'm racking my brain, trying to remember where that crossbow is located, so I can find the place of that regenerating wasp.
Hmmm. Could that be the room with the metal gate that keeps closing while you try to enter the room? The level just before the RA gates? With the button on the far wall that opens the gate from the inside?

#26 on this map for the crossbow
http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/139
http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/143

[MasterWuuf]

slickrcbd: That's the spot I had in my mind. That was an interesting puzzle, first time through, getting through that gate.
Skeletons and wasps enjoyed hogging the entrance. Ha.

[slickrcbd]

I would have thought that "Time is of the Essence" three levels above would have prepared you for that puzzle, if it is the one I remember. I need to do a full run through again, but I'm playing the Might & Magic series right now. Previously I had only played the first two on the Apple II, but I got the PC version of the first 6 some time ago from GOG on sale.

[MasterWuuf]

RE: Time is of the Essence.

Similar yes, but the wasps and skeletons 'thrown in' are what caught my attention the first time through.
After the first time through, most of the 'terrifying' creatures became more of a nuisance.

The first mummy I encountered, with its scream and outstretched arms, just about gave me a heart attack. After that first experience with a mummy, the rest of the mummies seemed like old friends. VIS: "Well, hello Homer. How about a hug?"

[terkio]

What is remarkably well done, is when you first encounter trouble in DM, it seems near impossible to overcome. One can be stuck for a while. Once you manage to go on, this is very rewarding, until the next trouble that seems too tough.
Your champions get better, but troubles becomes worse.
Once you have gone through this, many times, you understand, things will be easier with well trained champions.
Balancing in DM is very good. In CSB it is a master piece.
Replaying DM, unfortunately these feelings are not there anymore.
Replaying CSB, I was just enable to overcome the very beginning.

[jayrshaw]

Yeah - I remember the first actual monster I ran into in the dungeon kind of shocked me a bit, too. Even now, I get a little surprised when I turn a corner and discover that a Wizard Eye or something is lurking there in wait for me...


--Jay

[boyflea]

Well here's my 2gp:
Lord Chaos appeared and seemed to be the centre of a subsequent great war, while Theron was 'frozen'.
Lord Chaos must have presented such a threat to the world that the individual nations sent forward their armies to defeat 'him'. But they failed and in return Lord Chaos defeated their realms and enslaved the remnants, which explains the diversity. Champions kept on coming to the dungeon to either be killed or trapped as a warning. In the sequel, there is a 'prison' which features groups of PCs... the fairies, the undead types, the insectoids, the lizardlike etc... so the world is very diverse.
Lord chaos could summon the rocks themselves to build the dungeon (as seen in CSB intro, https://youtu.be/6nf3oX2Oxcw?t=190) - so likely that he also had some necromantic / summoning powers; raising dead, mind-controlling beasts (the dragon is also an odd thing to have indoors, 14 levels down!).
Even if Lord Chaos was not a necromancer, skeletons seem to come from whatever realm 'Necro' and 'Deth' hail from.

On top of all of this, Lord Chaos did manage to create some of the best plumbing seen in any megalomaniac's dungeon: those fountains are amazing!


DM and CSB are incredibly inventive dungeons and I really love the designs... CSB is incredibly wild, even now. DM and that first mummy have remained with me all these years, and the puzzles beyond the Riddle Room are really good fun... although the 'boss fights' for both of these dungeons is a little convulted, it's still an incredibly fun pair of quests...

[Ameena]

I'm pretty sure Lord Chaos just created the creatures himself, being a powerful mage and all (consider that they do just poof into smoke when killed rather than leaving a corpse), and that he can't leave the dungeon. Remember that Lord Librasulus (Order) showed up at the same time and similarly can't enter the dungeon. The champions in the mirrors are people who showed up to try and stop Chaos but, as per the intro story, weren't very good at doing so because they kept fighting amongst themselves or being greedy with treasure or whatever and so were defeated and imprisoned in the mirrors by Lord Chaos.

[slickrcbd]

The part about being greedy with treasure doesn't make much sense, considering that I tend to be just as greedy.
Or is it meant to imply that they were overloaded with stuff instead of tossing things as soon as a better weapon or piece of armor becomes available?
Granted, half the coins and gems you find in the game are useless, especially the stuff you find in the dragon's lair (I pretty much only take some copper coins, the square key, and the Eye of Time, plus some dragon steaks).

[Ameena]

Yep,the champions messed around bickering and stopping for loot and got themselves killed. It's stated as such in the backstory in the manual - here is an excerpt...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I can stay no longer. You must hear me now. In the years since the Catastrophe, I've sent mortal champions into the dungeon, in the hopes that they could retrieve the Firestaff. Unfortunately," Lord Librasulus said, "they perished in the attempt."
"All of them?"
"But a few hundred. A small sacrifice, when one counts the fate of millions against it. They weren't disciplined enough. They couldn't focus themselves. They fought with each other, stopped to gather treasures. So they died."

(...)

"Lord Chaos hung twenty-four of them in a place he calls the Hall of Champions." The great High Lord scowled. "It's his trophy room. He has imprisoned them there, in magic mirrors. They are frozen, suspended, dead and yet not dead. He placed them there as warnings for those who would undertake my cause."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is even a scene later showing a party of four (Halk, Syra, Alex, Nabi) doing just that - arguing amongst themselves and complaining about certain party members being too busy going for treasure that they don't bother to notice the traps, and so on. And earlier int he story, Lord Librasulus also confirms that he cannot enter the dungeon, just as Chaos cannot leave it, as well as that Chaos has messed up the place and put in all kinds of traps and stuff and created horrible monsters and all that.

[slickrcbd]

Funny thing was, there aren't a whole lot of deadly traps in Dungeon Master, and nothing that you can't get out of. Nothing that will leave you trapped in a pit or imprisoned in a wall forever.
One of the deadliest traps is probably at the start of the worm level, where that door closes automatically and you have to run under it. Sometimes a pair of worms will move and block your path, so you try to run past the door and run into a worm that takes a bite, then the door slams down on your head.
The main way people die is from monsters. Although falling into a pit around "Choose your door, choose your fate" can also be deadly that early on.

[terkio]

No deadly traps ?
What about fireballs flying all over the place.
I wonder how the ceiling can hold on in large rooms with no pillar.
This shows, Lord Chaos magic is much powerful.

[MasterWuuf]

RE: Deadly traps in DM.

The first time I tried going through the "What is underfoot, is soon overhead" (did I get that right?) spot, I kept skipping left and right. Yeah, my group expired rather quickly that time. That 'save game' feature is one of the best weapons in the game.

[Ameena]

Also when you pick up Diamond Edge and it causes a whole load of Poison Clouds to be shot out of the walls. Maybe not super deadly to an advanced team but still harmful and at least annoying. The point is that the original champions were like a bunch of idiot AIs who blundered about, argued with each other, triggered all the traps, ran into all the monsters, etc. It's not until Theron (ie the player) specifically takes control of 1-4 of them that they seem to have any chance of success.

[slickrcbd]

I said "not a lot", not that there were not any.