Forum suggestion and a big 'ol HI THERE

Jemsee · Post by **Jemsee** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:47 am

First I just signed up today and want to say this looks like a good place.
Time will tell though.
As for a suggestion create a "New Members" forum with the stuck message like that is in this one but only in this forum new members can ask really dumb questions and by forum law there can be no flaming on them. Just a idea, have seen it elsewhere and it seems to work well.

Anyway I have always loved DM and only rented it when was deep into SNES games. Took the time to draw every map, every step, drove my wife crazy with the "drip - drip" sound in the game.
Reacently I have discovered SNES emulators and the things that go with them and just started playing DM again.
Did some online searches to find what the magic symbols mean for making magic and found DM Javahttp://www.cs.pitt.edu/~alandale/dmjava/.
DLed it and found an editor, which led me here.
So to be honest I am not shure if this is the place I even wanted to be but with the other forums on clones and such (witch I will explore given time) this place should be interseting if nothing else.
So the question is other than the Java clone which needs Java Runtime are there other DM editors out there?
If so what is the best version at this time?
Do you support the DMJava clone or it's website?
Thanks.

Post by **Ameena** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:00 am

Well, I expect pretty much everyone here will agree with me (as they've said it themselves many times) when I say that GG's editor is great for creating your own dungeons or editing the old ones. It's in text form, so you have to type out every single door, trap, item, and creature as a separate line, which can get tedious, but it does work, and it's not quite as complicated as it looks. Once you get the hang of it, it's not bad. as I've discovered, though I do seem to post on here every few weeks with a new silly problem I've had lol. And once you've made your dungeon, the error-finder in the compiler is great as it makes a new document with all your errors in a list so you can go through and sort them out. Good stuff

.
If anyone ever makes a pictorial editor, like with click-and-drag items or whatever, that would be the BEST thing

. But until then, this text one is good enough to do. ANd of course I'm sure we've all said uber-gratzies to GG for coming up with the whole thing.
Btw, assorted people have written out guides for the editor, as well as item lists. Andyboy is currently working on a guide which I have found useful, and which will therefore be invaluable when he finishes it

.

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:58 am

Well, I've played my small part in both DmJava and RTC which you will find dominate the DM clone areas since they are indeed complete (as far as complete goes anyway.. things can always be added to) and they are also very adaptable in that you can make new maps and graphics and sounds .. essentially making new games from them.

The DMJava editor at current is probably the easier to use as it has a graphical interface. However, I find some things about RTC more appealing just compared to how things were with installing the runtime environment and such.

As to what Ameena here has said, there is infact a way to edit graphically to a point and that is to use DMUTE also made by GG as an editor for PC DM's maps. There is an option to export now to a RTC format which you can then edit to fix things DMUTE is not set up to do. MAinly fixing traps and locks and the like.

A graphical based editor *IS* in the works right now but progress is slow but it will get there.. no worries.

Anyway, I wouldn't worry about flaming in here.. I've not seen anything to suggest that would happen *yet* most of us are all pretty firendly.. I think it comes with the age group attached to this sort of game. We're all pretty mature.

anyway, enjoy your stay with us and don't hesitate to ask any questions. I'll take your new forum thread under suggestion but I think it's safe enough here we won't need it.

moo

Jemsee · Post by **Jemsee** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:50 pm

Thanks for responding so quickly.
Have been over at the DMJava forum and it is kind of slow.
Many posts there are never answered and are several months old.
This place seems a little more active.

To be honest I would have to be a graphical type game designer.
Have dabbled in the Zelda Classic editor but never made a final product.
The DMjava looked easy and fun, but I will take a look at RTC.
I assume there is a link somewhere to get the editor.
But the DMUTE (Dungeon Master Utility?) sounds interesting and more up my line.
Is there a place where you trade games that members have made?

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:19 pm

It's all in the top links -

The DM & CSB Encyclopaedia forums has a special forum for most of the new dungeons that have been made - DM Java ones tend to be linked independantly

There you can aslo find CSB For Windows, where Paul Stevens took the code of atari CSB and copnverted it to PC - it's taken on a life of its own as a clone too. It also has it's
There you can also find links for the editor DMBuild, which is another editor for DM dungeons.

The three editors create some problems, as you will find that there is a heirarchy that Dmute can read the other two's files with major changes, and DMBuild cannot read the editor for CSB For Windows CSBuilder for major changes!
So you have DMute, which can edit DM dungeons and create RTC dungeons
DMBuild which has no hex editing but the greatest bredth of functions including reconfiguring champion mirrors
CSBuilder which is mostly for use with CSB For Windows but can edit any dungeon

Have fun!

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:22 pm

And DMute is because it mutates existing DM dungeons and saved games - it can't create from fresh : )

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:44 pm

for the RTC editor, I think it's RTC itself. Or it used to be.. look under the instructions. I think you use a normal text editor and make the maps that way and then send them through RTC to be compiled.

This is where DMUTE comes in handy. If you make up the dungeon in dmute setting things down and what not, then you can save out as an RTC txt file (precompiled) and have it compiled into a .RTC file for use in the game. However, as I said though, somethings are not translated correctly from DMUTE to the RTC format of dungeon. A large part of it is the same but there are a few unique differences in the way linking objects to traps and doors and so on that from what I understand you need to go in and fix before compiling.

anyway, if you use these forums regularily you will find that you can probably get past any stumbling points. People here are frequently starved for new dungeons to play so I imagine anyone will help bring a new one into the fold.

moo

Post by **Ameena** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 1:37 am

The RTC editor isn't technically an editing program - you just type out your dungeon as a text file in, say Notepad, and then go to the Config file and add a command telling it to compile your file. Then, when you try to load up RTC, it will attempt to compile your file. You will get a message informing you of the number of Critical Errors and Warnings (if any) in your file. If there aren't any, an RTC file of your dungeon will be created and you can send this to people for them to have a go at it. If you do have errors, a new text file is created in which these are listed, so you can go through and fix them. When you are done and an RTC file is created, you just go into the Config file again and remove the compile command. Your dungeon is then listed with the others in the menu when you load up RTC.
Anyway, you know this DMute thing? Well, what is hex? My dad says it's some kind of horribly complicated programming language or something. Does DMute require you to have some knowledge of weird complex stuff, or is it nearly as simple as the old type-out-a-text-file method? You guys should know how thick I am when it comes to simple stuff like this by now, so if DMute looks even vaguely confusing I will probably have no clue hehe

. I just wondered...I have no idea what it's like, that's all. We haven't downloaded it or anything, and if it sounds like it's worth it then I'll get my dad to sort it lol.

sucinum · Post by **sucinum** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 2:53 am

Ameena wrote:Anyway, you know this DMute thing? Well, what is hex? My dad says it's some kind of horribly complicated programming language or something. Does DMute require you to have some knowledge of weird complex stuff, or is it nearly as simple as the old type-out-a-text-file method?

i created so far 4 dungeons with dmute and they are rather simple in terms of technical stuff etc. i used some hex-editing for fireball shooters and for chests, thats all. for any other riddles i teleport around apples on triggers, thats work just fine. for example the "moving pit" in DM near the master key. in the original game, it's a bunch of buttons in a wall. i simply created 4 teleportals and 8 pressure pads (4 to open the pits, another 4 to activate the teleportals).
so you can have nice workarounds and dont need to do complicated stuff. you don't really need to but items in a chest, simply throw them on the floor and you dont really need a shooter in a dungeon (and if, you can ask us anytime in the dmute-forum below).
you may dmute my dungeons any time to see, how easily costructed they are.
oh, and there is a very good hexguide for dmute by beowuuf (if i only found it, id like to sticky it at the dmute-forum).

Post by **Ameena** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 3:15 am

Yeah, but what IS hex? What do you have to do to make it work or whatever?

sucinum · Post by **sucinum** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 3:36 am

hex is a number system which uses numerals from 1 to 16, so 11 to 16 are replaced bei A to F. to hex-edit with dmute, you simply have to press "H" and see a window to edit the hex-numbers. what which number does and where it can be useful to change them is explained in beowuufs hexguide.
so hex-editing is just like "to make this demon face a shooter, i simply have to replace this 3E by a 4A and that A2 by a 0E" (example!).
(hope that was well explained, my english left me a bit

).

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:15 am

yup, that's pretty much it

i wouldn't say it's easy to understand (my hex manual because i waffle, not hex editing itself), but hopefully it gives you a flavour of what to do!

Edit: http://www.dmjump.net/hextut.zip is the link

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 3:23 pm

I don't think separate threads for new user are needed. In my experience people here are amicable enough and there rarely is criticism because of "stupid" questions or the like. As long as people search through the forums and then pose their questions, I can see no problem at all.

Regards, PitD

Post by **Lunever** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 5:50 pm

I agree with PitD. Although this forum has many a member, only a few members are really active here. And most of them have been proven to be very helpful for most newbie question, even if they were asked often before; even then newbies usualy were told in what thread exactly this question already had been answered. I think there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers, and I don't see much of them at this forum. So just pose your question in the appropriate main forum, I'll be glad to answer them if possible.

Post by **Ameena** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 12:39 am

Okay, that explanation of hex made absolutely NO sense, and sounded like a Maths lesson, so I think I'll skip DMute and stick with the text files lol

.

sucinum · Post by **sucinum** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 1:10 am

you see hex only few times when muting a dungeon

my first dungeon was created completely without hex.

Post by **Ameena** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 1:17 am

Ah, hmm...well, I take it hex is used for more complex stuff like weird traps and puzzles and stuff? What's DMute like anyway that makes it so good? I'm sure that's been explained before millions of times, but either i haven't read it, have forgotten it, or such things were posted before I first ventured into this forum

.

Jemsee · Post by **Jemsee** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:14 am

Both hex and text have lost me.
I will have to download them and start pushing buttons, which is how I usually learn.
As for the suggestion, if things are working now don't fix them.
But I guess I like places to introduce myself and ask what may seem to be obvious questions.
The feedback is great, will get the help file and the programs and see if I can't crash another PC (j/k).
One problem I had with ZC was as I got into it I kept playing other peoples games and never got around to making my own.
I started one and had it all out on paper, still have it, just never made it.
I have played a couple of dozen games though. Tons of fun.
And DM has the same appeal that ZC does.
Exploration, "We will leave no stone untouched" as Mince would say.

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 12:37 pm

The RTC approach (defining a dungeon in a text file and then compiling it) needs a lot of looking through already existing dungeons (can be found within the download of RTC at http://www.ragingmole.com/RTC/) and some understanding of basic game mechanics. I'm sure Ameena can tell you quite a lot about how many errors one explores before finding them.

DMute is a more "visual" editor that allows people who are not that familiar with the engine (like myself, although I'm learning to translate some of the sentences Paul Stevens likes to issue) to edit small parts of a dungeon or even create a new one (http://www.ragingmole.com/DMute/). Both DMute and RTC have been coded by George Gilbert, who did an excellent job on both and is probably a main reason why so many people are still alive and kicking years after the original release of DM.

This editor, while easy enough with smaller changes, is more limited when it comes to creating a dungeon than the RTC text editing method, that covers nearly all your bases if you know what to do. Also, DMute only works with DM for PC and CSBwin files, that have not been fiddled with by either Gambit, Beowuuf , Amber or Sphenx, to name just a few of the usual suspects (i.e. not hex-edited before).

For more expert users there is CSBuild, a very powerful editor by before mentioned Paul Stevens, that can be used -like DMute- for either DM for PC or CSBwin files, but contrary to DMute can read most of the files that have been fiddled with (i.q. hex-edited). Both the latest version of CSBwin and CSBuild can be found at http://www.dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin/.

Having said all that, hex editing is the part where you leave the defined areas and start trying out to get some tricks and twists into a dungeon that no editor (yet) supports. This is tricky (even with Beowuufs manual, that covers many aspects, but if you will try it you'll see there are many hidden traps around every corner - some of them you'd not even expect to have been there!) and time-consuming, but may allow you to stretch some parts of dungeon building to extremes. Most parts of this are not yet defined officially, many code parts not "translated" and there is certainly no failproof document. If you want to try hex editing, prepare yourself for many hours of looking into various codes, dungeons and forum threads. Or just start off with DMute

The experts around here will correct me on any mistakes I made but I hope as an overview on editing this will server as a starting point.

Regards, PitD

sucinum · Post by **sucinum** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:45 pm

i can count the amount of hex-editing used in my dungeons on my hands. imprisoned again, which is rather complex (to play, not to create), has some shooters, some chests and a few monsters which carry items with them. thats ALL i used hexediting for and i simply copied the steps from the hexguide.
i dont even use torch-holders or buttons and levers, which change their state when pressed.
to change texts and characters (and the deepness-factor, meaning lvl-difficulty, because imprisoned is played from down to top), i used textmute, which works perfectly for things like that and i won't miss this tool

im very far from being an expert in these things and i say, you don't REALLY need it.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:39 pm

I'm surprised, or maybe i'm skim,ming ,that no one mentions DMuild more
Apart from the lack of mouse, which after abot an hour the first time i seriously tired it i never looked back on, it is great.
It has most of the functions including text and character ateration, nd once you get into it is very intuitive - i created a small dungeon ery quickly...i jut nver got round to popluating it much (it started as a furnished temple wit hthe mysteries being below)

If it wasn't for the lack of hex editing and the incompatibility Dmbuild goign back to Dmute again i would use both without thought

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:49 pm

You must have been rather in a hurry when writing the above entry... never counted more typing errors within a short note in quite a while

Or maybe just eager to get your gf from the airplane ?

Regards, PitD

Jemsee · Post by **Jemsee** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 12:15 am

I started out with the rom for the SNES emulator and using a gamepad controller.
Last night I downloaded Gilberts Return to Chaos and find that playing the original with it using the mouse and keyboard is much nicer.
I have messed with editing in DMute some and I think I can figure it out (maybe).
One thing I have been doing is taking the original lvl one dungeon and making some small changes (adding a passage and putting decor on a wall) then saving it.
I have noted that DMute saves two files, a .txt and a .dat.
I tried loading the edited one but it would not load in the RTC game I was playing.
So to start off, what do I need to test any changes I have made?
I am starting to gather that DMute can edit files but not play them, but RTC will not play them unless I do something special.
I read that I had to add a line to the config file. (COMPILE Modules\New\MyDungeon.txt).
But can not find an existing line like that in the file for the current game.
I even added a "New" folder in the modules and it did show up when I loaded the game in where you choose which game to play.
Also I downloaded Thorans Quest and unwrapped the .rar file and it has .iso files.
(Dumb question time)
Do I have to copy the .iso to a special folder or to a CD?
I remember doing this once to a game I DLed and was amazed it worked but unfortunately do not remember what I did to make it work.

Oh ... off topic .... someone posted a link to a online game called Legond of the Green Dragon.
My thanks to him for giving me my new time waster, all I need is something like that to keep me from all the other junk I am supposed to be doing.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:54 am

Yes, i really should check my spelling after i type

The .dat file you edit is for is for PC DM - dungeon.dat goes into the /data folder, and dmsave.dat goes into the root

The .txt files are for RTC. The compile line can be added in the config.txt anywhere, and also needs a tab between the 'compile' and the path to the .txt file - the text file needs to be somewhere in the root RTC folder.
The compile line then creates the .rc file the game uses. So you only need the compile line to test and compile a new dungeon. You can add a ; to the start of the line to comment it out of config when you want to play games normally

Post by **Lunever** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:50 am

Ameena: Yet you can learn quite a few interesting things about the structure of dungeons - especially the CSB dungeon - by viewing them with DMute, even without any knowledge of hex coding. Try it!

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:57 am

When saving your dungeon in DMute and receiving the *.txt file, put it in the RTC directory "modules\new" (for example). Then copy the line
"COMPILE Modules\New\<DungeonFileName>.txt" into the file config.ini in the RTC root directory and save the file changes. After starting RTC the program will compile your dungeon into a *.rtc file - hopefully without errors - which can then be used to play your new dungeon.

Good luck,

Regards, PitD

Jemsee · Post by **Jemsee** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 4:18 pm

PicturesInTheDark wrote:When saving your dungeon in DMute and receiving the *.txt file, put it in the RTC directory "modules\new" (for example). Then copy the line
"COMPILE Modules\New\<DungeonFileName>.txt" into the file config.ini in the RTC root directory and save the file changes. After starting RTC the program will compile your dungeon into a *.rtc file - hopefully without errors - which can then be used to play your new dungeon.

Good luck,

Regards, PitD

OK. I think I did all that...copy/past right from the instruction manual and put the .txt file in with the others in a "New" folder.
What I didn't do (I think) is save the config.
Still, what I do not understand is;
I have to put the compile line in config - Ok no problem.
Should there not be a line like that there already for the 3 existing games?
Or are they already in some other format that they do not need to be compiled?
And I guess I need a different player? PC-DM?
Perhaps I should start looking around the board more in other forums and do some research. This may not be the right forum for getting so deep. Thanks.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:20 pm

Dmute was originally an editor for the old original DM games, so it edits the .dat files they use

RTC is a new clone by the same person, so it can create the raw .txt files that RTC compiles into .rtc files
These .rtc files are the files the games use, so once you have them, you don't need the text files - it's these .rtc files people distribute to play their dungeons (so no one can sneak looks at the dungeon either!)
So you have it all right, just once you have a compiled .rtc file, then comment out the compile line so you can play all the various dungeon in your folders

PicturesInTheDark · Post by **PicturesInTheDark** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:41 pm

That's what my explanation missed, thank you, fuzzy

Otherwise you'll be compiling the game all over each time without ever playing... that's the reason why the line is not there for the already existing dungeons. You can also just deactivate the line by putting a ";" in front - same effect as if you delete the "compile" command.

Regards, PitD