CSBwin modified to add custom spell effects?

rain` · Post by **rain`** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:55 pm

This is a more of a question about whether or not this is a step we should take in the future of CSB4win and what you guys think (agree/disagree why?).

In CSBEdit (my graphics.dat editor which edits spells, monsters, attacks, food etc), each spell has a type and result associated with it.

Requires flask: Turns a flask item into an item of "result + 2".

Projectile: Shoots a projectile of the specified type (fireball, lightning bolt, poison bolt etc)

Durational: Causes increase in light effect, invisibilty, or magic shield type spells to work.

Now there are 13 other TYPES of spells that are listed as unknown but are actually just unimplemented. Not only that but there are like 50 or so types of durational spells that are unimplemented as well.

Its possible to implement 'new code' for new spells into CSB4win to create all new spell effects, the possibilities are endless. Heres a few examples of what I'm trying to say for spell options:

aura of strength (or any stat)
group heal
self heal
multi-projectile firing (shoot 2 fireballs at once)
summon monster with item (use bones to make a skeleton or screamer slice to create a screamer, could make new puzzles =])
recharge staff (or any item)
cause fear (a more powerful warcry, but in spell format)
teleport (move a few squares ahead until blocked by a wall)
remove curse (remove the effects of curse on an item)
freeze life (spell version)
drain life (hurt the enemy, heal yourself)
fire projectile using item (with an orange gem in the right/left hand, fire an even more powerful fireball, if no orange gem, fire a normal fireball)

I'm not asking for these all to be coded in, nor if they are possible (i know they are possible, and I could code them myself and submit them to paul stevens to include in the next CSB4win build) im just asking what you think about modifying the CSB engine to add potential new features. The good side is we can expereince new things in custom dungeons, the bad side is we are potentially changing the game when it wasnt the intent when the project first began.

-rain`

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:15 pm

I'm right in thinking this still needs the graphics.dat to implement these changes, even if they are allowed?

So you arent' altering DM and CSB as they still use the normal graphics.dat files, but we could have a new dungeon with completely altered monsters, abilities, etc like conflux II has now?

If this is the case, then I see no reason not to open the engine up with more possibilities!

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:50 pm

I'm open for discussion. But I am rather against adding things
willy-nilly just because they are different or neat. I am especially
attentive to people who are, themselves, investing a lot of energy
to produce products that everyone can enjoy. Zyx is a prime
example and there are many others. I am especially inattentive to
people who only like to brainstorm work for others. If you can show
me a project and explain why it needs a new spell then let's go for it.

And of course you can always make custom CSBwin.exe just for
yourself. If it is for a particular project then about the only
downside is that you become responsible for bugs.

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:12 am

I think that addition of things like new spells or monsters or effects etc. Should be established on after reflecting on balance of the game engine. Adding in tools that ultimately could cause uber heros who can do whatever they damn well please or dungeons with monsters and traps damn near impossible to overcome. Then we do a severe disservice to DM. These New spells for instance should be added if proven as usefull but not overly powerfull in other engines of this type. Teleport for instance is in DM2. But specific to use with an item and only from established spots to others in the dungeon. In other words the DM keeps controll of how much you can do with it. Things like stop time.. this is controlled usage when as an item. as a spell the hero could do it when ever they wanted. Escape any number of foes and kill them so long as he had mana. If however it were a spell to create magic boxes with the consumption of a specific item or a few of them then that would be acceptable since again.. the DM has control.

As for monster attributes I'm again interested but within reason. Things like the Knights. I used to think if their armour was left together they could reform after a certain amount of time. Since this appeared to be the only possible effect of the "curse" on the items. I however turned out to be wrong... but... this could be something usefull. A puzzle or challenge to a dungeon. Not over powerfull.. not difficult to overcome either. However the first time it got you.. you'd be certain it'd never happen again. Another example is in DM2 monsters that don't attack unless you attack them.. monsters that carry out a purpose. Visible and destroyable monster generators. Like a wasp nest.. etc. These are all new things but are established as balanced tools for these kinds of dungeon games.

For all spells as well, you should also think about how that spell would make sense. In terms of runes I mean.. Explain using the runes a spell that stops time.. or teleports... and how would you be able to balance cost and use of those spells. If you have a time spell that takes minimal power... how do you keep them from doing it over and over again (answer consumable resources) or whatever the new spell may be.. Balance...

I've always tried to nudge things as much as possible to increase in the visual and auditory. To make things more imersive since this doesn't effect the game itself but rather the ambience. Which is a big step to bringing in new lovers of this great game by entrancing them with dazzling graphics

In my oppinion much easier to add these than things that directly effect the game play.

moo

rain` · Post by **rain`** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:35 am

Paul Stevens wrote:I am especially inattentive to
people who only like to brainstorm work for others. If you can show
me a project and explain why it needs a new spell then let's go for it.

And of course you can always make custom CSBwin.exe just for
yourself. If it is for a particular project then about the only
downside is that you become responsible for bugs.

I would be glad to code what is required for my own dungeon (seeing as new code for spells would require a special graphics.dat file to even cast them, it would only affect the current custom dungeon, no others).

What I don't want to have is 2 or 3 different versions of CSBwin.exe, each of which has to be used solely on a seperate custom dungeon. I guess what im really asking is if i go ahead and make a custom dungeon with new modified spells in the source (for instance, i add group heal code, which is then added as a spell in my own graphics.dat file, only usable with my custom dungeon), would it be ok to send you the snippet and include it in the official**** csb4win? This would keep one universal application instead of 2 different spinoffs. If i were to create my own custom CSB4win.exe, which must be used on my custom dungeon, It would eventaully be out-dated.

-rain`

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:56 am

If i were to create my own custom CSB4win.exe, which must be used on my custom dungeon, It would eventaully be out-dated.

But who cares? It is only used with your one custom dungeon. They come
as a package. The engine, the dungeon, the graphics, special files (like
the portrait files in ConfluxII). A package. All the movies are like this....the
runtime that comes with them is totally outdated but absolutely necessary
to run that movie.

would it be ok to send you the snippet and include it in the official**** csb4win

As I said above....show me the need and if it is reasonable "Let's go for it."
But I don't want to add things willy-nilly.

Let us take an example. A spell to stop time. What for is that needed?????
We already have magic boxes and the 'Eye of Time". A dungeon-master who
wants you to stop time will provide a way to obtain these things. And they
certainly were useful in the 10 minute and 37 second race to the Ful Ya Pit.
My take on this is that if a substatially equivalent way of doing something
already exists then don't invent something new.

Another thought.......and here is a whopper. And I have said this before.
Allow all spells to pass through a global DSA. The DSA can examine the
spell and say that standard action should take place or it can translate it
to some other spell and have the runtime process that or it can throw the
spell away or it can cause whatever effects the designer chooses. In this
way the code stays in the dungeon file, not in the runtime engine.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:39 pm

The more I think about this the better it sounds. Spells that can only
be cast on certain levels. Spells whose effects are delayed. Spells that
can only be cast after the appropriate scroll is found. Spells that can be
cast only by particular party members. Spells with random effects.
Any of this sound good? All done with DSAs and therefore incorporated
into the dungeon and requiring no special runtime support. Spells activated
by coins (a Heal-All spell in the hospital for 2 coins). Water spell.
A hint spell. Et cetera.

rain` · Post by **rain`** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:44 pm

DSA's controlling spells? Yeah that is a whopper! You could then keep track of fireballs or VI potions and manipulate the map accordingly =] I could think of a few tricks to use with that but it is unneeded =]

As for a custom non official CSB4win, I guess if you say 'Who cares' and nobody else has a problem with it, I will modify it as needed. This really opens things up to me =]

One other question: I read somewhere something about monsters which carry DSA's and activate it regularly. Is this implemented?

-rain`

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:01 pm

monsters which carry DSA's and activate it regularly

Hmmm. Don't remember this. It would seem that there might be some
complications here because DSAs rather expect themselves to be in fixed
locations. And a DSA would turn into a different kind of DSA if it moved
between levels.

What are you trying to accomplish?

rain` · Post by **rain`** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:05 pm

not trying to accomplish anything, I read somewhere that said something about monsters carrying DSA's and reporting to the DSA everything it does, I tried it by just adding a dummy DSA that assigned literals to stack and watched the trace but It didnt work.

I was just wondering if it was something I didnt know about but existed thats all.
i'll see if i can find a link to the thread which talked about it later.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:09 pm

I think I remember saying that monster actions could be
reported via the standard message facility. They would not
carry a DSA. There are 12 different messages that can be
reported to a cell so up to 12 different monster actions could
be differentiated. Move North. Attack. Cast Spell. Damaged. Die. ...

zoom · Post by **zoom** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:47 pm

---- All i want to say is that i like the game at it´s present state and i agree totally with cowsmanaut´s view on balance-

How wonderful "new" ideas seem at first glance, but if you look closer....

THis is just brainstorming.

warning _ rather unsorted confusing stuff-- (I know that many of this stuff is simply not worth the trouble making and no one needs it maybe.)

Teleport self, random location (without items). standard Teleporter or new emergency spell ;only where you have been already(movie file) and only up to 3 levels up... no guarantee there is no pit or wall....
Teleport items , random location.or: never see them again...
Teleport items (carried on ground or in pointed to alcove) into facing monster; gets slowed down. --> could also happen to party-
let weapon hover(look for fireball spell downward) take a sword or boulder and let it hover one square in front of you, gets thrown if you run into monster..
Teleport monster away. You will see it again...revenge!
Heal monster. For trainign purposes
spinorturn monster/summon spinner. make the monster turn it´s back to you. merely you produce a turning platform like the ones which already exist. permanently active for monsters and players. You may reverse the turning by casting it twice.the like ect..you may nullify/remove existing spinners with this spell cast several times always changing spinning destination clockwise.
slow monster.see teleportitem into monster

Get dragons a regeneration power(on health/hps) So if there is one day multiplayer the dragon could cope with 4 parties at once =====)) around 30 Health per second
monster actions/features
frenzy; : esp. demons cast fireballs at triple rate.
clone monsterself: monster spawns itself, like a screamermother produces small screamers......> movable monster generator..

speed up : monster movement doubled. Leaves boots of speed...

boss attributes: Giggler with an movable fireball shooter/dagger shooter build "into" it. THis way you could make extraordinary but still looking the same monsters. surprise surprise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<
a standing fireball, like a bomb just hovering there not moving into any direction.same goes for poison ball ect...
the problem is that this would be too mighty for players...if the fireball would not decrease over timeand yet a cool thing..... already possible with shooter and turners and teleporters.

btw: How about some amiga sound samples(horn of fear) added?
regards, zoooom

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:28 am

I'm implementing the Spell Filtering. Of course one thing that
can happen is that the spell is refused. I can easily support several
dozen 'standard' messages thqt might be displayed (with character
name substitution).

"Sorry, Tiggy, you have not earned that spell."
or
"Halk cannot cast spells."

We'll also provide a way for custom messages. But some
built-in standard ones might be handy. I'm open for
suggestions.

FallenSeraphin · Post by **FallenSeraphin** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:59 pm

Isn't the game gonna be too much like EOB ?

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 5:30 pm

Uhm EOB uses a D&D interface.. you pick up a scroll and your character learns it then you need to sleep to remember it and you can only store specific spells and then use those.. no runes for you to remember or puzzle out.. no way of deciding in the moment that you need a specific spell.. much more constrained type of spell casting deal.

Not to mention EOB has a number of other traits that are different. Not just magic.

moo

FallenSeraphin · Post by **FallenSeraphin** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:13 pm

Paul Stevens wrote:Spells that can only
be cast on certain levels. Spells whose effects are delayed. Spells that
can only be cast after the appropriate scroll is found. Spells that can be
cast only by particular party members. Spells with random effects.

This has EOB written all over it... plus what you were planning on doing with the items (ex: broadsword +1, +2)...

Des · Post by **Des** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:50 pm

FWIW I am not a fan of restricted spell casting for bog-standard spells. Some special extra spells that can only be cast when a certain condition is met, fine.

One of the reasons why DM is so much better than EOB is the unique "free" spell-casting system. DM dares to be different and does not pander to the crypto-fascist restrictions of AD&D. Let's keep it that way.

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:23 am

"Spells that can only be cast on certain levels."
do not remember this in EOB as far as I know the only time you could not cast spells is when you had a dispell magic cast on you or you couldn't sleep to regain the learned spells.
By controling where you can cast a spell you have more control as a dungeon creator. Not that it's not something worth casting a wary eye on.. you don't want to piss off the player by suddenly revoking things.. unless you revoke any spells with the point of a no spell level.

"Spells whose effects are delayed."
Again refresh my memory where this is in EOB? I think this can make for some interesting balance issues. Where you have a powerfull spell but takes a time to cast correctly. So that it's balances out the power with the casting time. not an uncommon tool.

"Spells that can only be cast after the appropriate scroll is found."
This is very DM like.. only you've forgotten that Spells that can be cast by you now.. you didn't know when you fist played the game.. not untill you found the scrolls yourself and learned them. It's simply that they wanted people to have the possibility of learning them by just pressing buttons and trying out random sets. So I think that really it's a question of player knowledge vs character knowledge. Your character never learned the spell.. so how can he/she cast it? Makes sense to me

"cast only by particular party members. "
Thinking about preist and wizard spells. I dunno if this is a good or bad thing.. depends on how it's done and why. If you said a spell could be only cast be a specific character class then sure I would agree it's like EOB.. or an D&D rules based game

"Spells with random effects."
Chaos magic.. interesting.. but ultimately... pointless? I can maybe see a spell misfire.. where you mean to cast a mon fireball and because you are unpracticed it backfires and boom.. in your face.. or poof burn your hands.. etc.. otherwise I don't see the point.. and again I don't remember this in EOB..

moo

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:49 am

huh? what broadsword + 2 system?

And as for magic, look at RTC to see how one of these suggestions - needing scrolls and a spellbook - can feel completely DM, be in the spirit of DM, and yet sounds like EOTB

Everyone here is enthusiastic for DM in the way it was refreshing and different from other games of that type. The poeple who have invested time in the clones, especially George and Paul, have been keen to keep them firmly grounded in the realms of DM and keep this feel or freshness
I dont' think there is a danger of seeing anything that compromises the feel of dm, and even if it did, it would be one dungeon compared to the possibility of many more with nice tweaks

Personally I see nothing wrong with limiting spellcastign in fun ways - some people train their champions, then blow through a dungeon. So creatures tend to have to be high HP to be tough. But then that makes it a boring hack and slash for anyone just using untrained melee characters.
Also, much magic is through flasks - if you restirct them you limit the game, but when you place them alot of the challenge starts going.

It would nice to see dungeons where this balance is addressed intelligently, through spell filtering. Or just the experience of conflux II again, where familiar spells were'n't available without trial.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:01 am

Well, none of this talk will change my mind either way. I think it might
be a valuable tool to have at the disposal of a dungeon designer. I
cannot anticipate how it might be used or abused. Neither can I anticipate
what might be wanted. So I will make it quite general. Then, if people use
it in a way that reminds someone of EOB and causes unhappiness, it
will be the designers fault. I only supplied the hammer; I did not build
the ugly house.

We could use such EOB-like designs to torture the terrorists into revealing
their evil plans.

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:08 am

to be quite honest there are a few things in EOB that could stand to be introduced into DM.

The story elements, NPC players, cursed items are not just a meaningless label, etc

just my 2 Cents

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 9:03 am

i liked the player talking that has been put forward for both here and RTC - the 'xxx says this graveyard is spooky' tags that would come up during play.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:38 pm

Cursed items cause your Luck to decrease in DM, I believe. It is not
just a "meaningless label". What effects would you like to see?

purple1 · Post by **purple1** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:52 pm

Cursed items can't be removed without dying first, or using a spell or potion that allows them to be removed. That would be cool. Oh, wait. That's not really a spell effect.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:11 pm

Once the spell filtering is fully implemented it should be easy
to remove the curse with a spell. And I would have to allow
a designer option to force non-removal of cursed items.....not
too hard.

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:04 am

well I always mention the one effect to the curse I thought happened but didn't.. still can't explain how that knight got into my safe section though..

moo

Post by **PaulH** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 2:32 am

Interesting subject.We have been here before many a time. Not everybody can be pleased when it comes to altering the sacredness of DM. However I can't see a problem in custom dungeons with altered effects. Or even a means to change effects: a change to a new dungeon.dat doesn't have to be a permanent effect in the entirety of DM! Just a means to new gameplay. There has been scarce new dungeons in the last year or so but this is probably the only way forward for Dm and maybe this forum.
At the end of the day, the original dungeon will never be forgotten: it is and always will be the best

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:15 am

I posted OverlayDemo.rar and CSBuild146.rar

This demonstrates a very simple dungeon using the spell
filter capability. You have to find the scroll before casting
the spell.

Try it and peek at it with the editor.

Post by **Zyx** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:02 am

Nice!

There are several things I don't understand:
The DSA "disable zo":
1) I don't understand when the code from the S0 state is executed.
2) What does "L1 L0 &PARAM@ L2 L0 &! L1 L0 &PARAM!"?
Ok, I know it translates this way:
"Fetch one parameter to temporary variable[0];
Store 2 at temporary variable[0];
Store 1 parameter from temporary variable[0]"

What is this parameter? The DSA parameter A? (0 in this case)
So this code seems to put a 2 to this parameter, am I right?
But I don't understand the meaning of it.

3) What's the relation between the temporary variables and the zo spell?
4) Where did the text "this spell is too difficult. Study it" come from? Is it in the CSBwin.exe?
5) All the spells are disabled. How do I edit that?

Oh, by the way, edit the gameinfo of the dungeon.dat you provided: there is some garbage at the end of the text.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:58 am

1) Edit the Global Info using CSBuild. Examine the
'Spell Filter Location'. This is where an 'S0' message is sent
whenever a spell is cast.
2) The &PARAM@ and &PARAM! fetch the parameters passed
to the DSA. In this case it is all the Spell parameters. Tomorrow
I will document these. I olny fetched and stored the first
one, which is the action to take after the DSA exits. 0 means
to process the spell as usual, using the (possibly) modified
parameters. 1 means abort the spell with no message. 2 means abort
the spell with the text "THIS SPELL IS TOO......".

In the future, DSAs will be able to pass parameters to other DSAs and
create spells (rather than simply filtering them). But this requires a
lot of changes. First we will do simple filtering.

3) The temporary variables receive the spell parameters. You can
modify them and send them back to be processed. You might change
the spell from ZO to something else, if you think the character is too
tired or confused to get it right.

4) The text is built in to exe. Remember a few days ago I asked for some sample
text that I could build in? I said I could easily support several dozen.
I got no responses. So I built in one that I made up. We will eventually
make a way to provide arbitrary text. So positive numbers between 1 and
(shall we pick a number?) 100 will be for the built-in text values. We will
make character name substitution possible.

5) All the spells are disabled because that is what the DSA does. It does not
look at the spell. The documentation (tomorrow) will tell how to look
at the spell and do something different depending on the parameters.
This will probably require some sort of &CASE command to make a quick way
of doing something different for each of the 258 possible spells.