Limits to puzzles with basic DM mechanics?

Post by **Gambit37** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:20 pm

I wasn't quite sure where to put this post as it applies to several different forums, but this one is most logical I guess.

We're all pretty familar with what's capable with the original DM engine, but after a while everything begins to be quite 'samey' and it becomes hard coming up with new puzzles that really push the mechanics and offer something innovative to the player that isn't simply 'find this and stick it in there'.

Paul Stevens has added DSAs in CSBWin which Zyx seems to exploring very well, and allow all kinds of extra clever stuff. And RTC can do some nice things, but internally it works quite differently.

What's the cleverest puzzles you can come up with using the ORIGINAL -- non-DSA -- mechanics? Obviously, to be able to contribute, you need to have already built some stuff and understand how the underlying 'wiring' architecture of the game works.

Anyone?

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:10 pm

Cloning included or not?

Post by **Gambit37** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:12 pm

Not -- I'm looking for innovative puzzles, not necessarily innovative mechanics to create them.

benkid77 · Post by **benkid77** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:09 pm

I've often wondered whether the DM engine is "turing complete". If so, then theoretically, the limit of complexity of puzzles would merely be a function of dungeon size. Whether this observation has any use in practical terms though, I'm not sure.

Post by **PaulH** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:01 pm

Not to blow my own trumpet... but I quite liked my puzzle in ToC where you had to teleport a couatl into the middle of four doors, chuck a object through the grids into it, kill it with poison so it drops the object through the pit it was hovering on which triggered a pad downstairs and opened a door. Simple but nice. DSAs, I haven't a clue about.

sucinum · Post by **sucinum** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:21 pm

it's very hard to design allnew puzzles - once you try yourself, you are astonished, how many puzzles are already in dm and csb and you can only bring up variations. and don't forget other dungeon games...
some are quite easy and others are quite hard nuts, but imho the difficulty isn't the point in riddles. dm offers so much little stuff like timing riddles (time is of the essence, zoom room, moving pit), orientation (matrix, when a rock...), combination (treasure rooms, riddle room and following), monster handling (the skels/beholders you have to freeze to get a bottle), char-skills (cast you influence, don't let a closed door, test your strengh) and many, many more. csb has nice multi-level-riddles (the whole DDD) and many more.
all in all, the designers have been very creative

riddles i found quite amusing:
put the gem back, DM (we all simply jumped down, right?)
the teleportal/pit/door-stuff, CSB at the antmen-level (not really hard, but somehow funny)
riddle room, DM
spinning plates like in the matrix
i generelly like hard fights with pits and shooting/flying monsters involved (dain in csb i.e.)

riddles i like for their craft:
the pit-room at the treasure chambers (i tried to copy that in one of my dungeons with walls instead of pits and failed)
the teleportal room next to it (also tried to copy that, but needed lots of walls)
the button-king (i don't know the combination until today)
the complete DDD. so many hard nuts on such a small space is simply incredible.

my imho best self-designed riddles:
art of war - surprise (okok, a reloader, but i needed some tries by myself to discover a good tactic)
last level of the ninja-tower

the best what the engine offers:
the DDD.

but i have to admit that csbwin evolved past me and i have to bow to zyx for his really mad dungeon. i will stick with vanilla dungeons and continue to use simple riddles to keep the player alert. only hack&slay is boring

Big-J-Q · Post by **Big-J-Q** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:13 am

sucinum wrote:monster handling (the skels/beholders you have to freeze to get a bottle)

What puzzle is this?! I've never found any use for freezing time except for executing monsters with doors.

Post by **Gambit37** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:17 pm

You didn't actually *need* to freeze them if you're quick/lucky -- it's on level 6, the "Cowards will be hunted down" room where a wall opens when a floorpad a few tiles away is stepped on. Freezing a skeleton on it makes it easier.

sucinum · Post by **sucinum** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:24 pm

at "i don't like to be ignored". there is a party/monster-pad 3 steps away from a false wall. that puzzle is optional like many are

/e: that's tabbed browsing...

Big-J-Q · Post by **Big-J-Q** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:02 pm

Oh yes, that puzzle. "I hate cowards". ("Cowards will be hunted down and killed" is several levels later with the Oitus

) I have always solved this puzzle by waiting at the switching wall when I first have lured a skeleton to chase me. Never even thought of freezing them.

sucinum · Post by **sucinum** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:45 pm

whatever - that was simply an examle of one of the little twists inside dm we mostly simply walk around or don't even recognize or pay attention to. but once you try to build your own dungeon, you suddenly recognize "ouch, that's already in dm/csb".
in this context, i want to recommend southpark episode 86: simpsons already did it. VERY funny. (and that gains me the beowuuf-award of offtopicing

).

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:26 pm

*the OT master grants you the award, 1st class, and 5 posts*

this means i have to drag the thread back on topic but i can't think of any really clever puzzles i've done : )
i'm sure many in conflux actually come from humble beginnings so will win this award!

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:29 pm

actually, thinking about it properly, one of the 'funnest' would be a chain of events...like the hhgttg puzzle if you've ever played the text game, to get the bable fish.
Many simple thigns - floor switch that teleports, maybe shooter that shoots a needed object away, etc. And you basically have to build up a chain of actions to release a fdoor. Like catch the shot item before it disappears but then backtrack to avoid the other missile that must hit the wall and fall onto a pad then you must run to the switch that is temporarily revealed while the item is on the pad then you must run through the pit/fireball alley this creates to hit another button to...

you know, lots of simple mechancs but combined make some fiendish puzzle

Des · Post by **Des** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 1:28 am

I'm only about 10% through the creation of my dungeon (so I'm still a greenie designer), but FWIW I definitely agree with the above and the comments from sucinum. I don't think it matters if the puzzles are simply variations on ones that have been done before, as long as they are enternaining. Though I have been getting a bit worried about the overt sadism of some of the stuff I've come up with so far.

I do plan to try to create something special deeper in the dunge using DSAs.

Toni Y · Post by **Toni Y** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:05 pm

benkid77 wrote:I've often wondered whether the DM engine is "turing complete". If so, then theoretically, the limit of complexity of puzzles would merely be a function of dungeon size. Whether this observation has any use in practical terms though, I'm not sure.

In theory it is. Once when I was bored, I was thinking ways to create logic gates using the dungeon elements. I even created a working binary adder. In theory, you could construct a working microprocessor which obviously can run turing complete programs...

That's impractical solution though, since the size of the construct wouldn't fit in PCDM limits, and CSBWin/RTC have better mechanisms to do that.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:07 pm

yup, you have a NAND gate in the dm actuators, so you have everything!

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:22 pm

I already posted this link up i nthe news section, but it highlights what complex puzzle i would love to do with the DM mechanics too

http://www.foon.co.uk/farcade/hapland/