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Sophia
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Web Accessibility Discussion

Post by Sophia »

This was split from a discussion in a private mods forum:
Gambit37 wrote:it won't be long before it's a legal requirement that websites improve their accessibility
A legal requirement in which country?

Governments should have accessibility requirements for their own websites, because government resources need to be accessible for all citizens. That said, why should my website have to be accessible to anyone, and why should some bureaucrat tell me differently?

If my website is inaccessible to the blind, if I'm a business, it's bad business... but that's captialism! Stupid business decisions aren't illegal.

And if it's my personal website, well-- half of people's personal websites aren't even accessible to the sighted. Look at Geocities or Myspace. ;)
Gambit37 wrote:When that happens, expect massive
... amounts of free speech cases, at least here.
All that first amendment stuff. :D
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Post by Gambit37 »

Sophia wrote:Stupid business decisions aren't illegal.
No, but they eventually will be when they infringe on rights for the disabled, or others who can't view the web the way YOU might like them to.

I'm completely aware that the current legal requirement in the USA only applies to government sites. However, in the UK, the DDA (Disability Discrimination Act) now specifically mentions websites as a "product or service" that must be accesible to all, regardless of ability.

There is currently no UK case law for this, but eventually it WILL HAPPEN. When it does, the shit will hit the fan and thousands of companies will be forced to make their websites comply with the legal requirement. I hope to be a self sufficient Accessibility consultant by then... :D And I really look forward to this day... because it means Flash only sites will no longer run unusable riot across the web.

I don't especially care about the legal requirement anyway. As a responsible web developer and passionate advocate for a web usable by all, I build sites with accessibility as a corner stone by default. It's simply the right thing to do.
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Post by Sophia »

Gambit37 wrote:I don't especially care about the legal requirement anyway. As a responsible web developer and passionate advocate for a web usable by all, I build sites with accessibility as a corner stone by default. It's simply the right thing to do.
I don't disagree with the premise of accessibility as being a mark of good development, and I think it's nothing but good that you've chosen this approach.

It's simply that having this legislated makes me a bit nervous. Government intervention means bureaucrats sticking their noses in and telling people who know more than them about technology how to use that technology-- and the results of that are often not very good.

There are a million reasons I can think of (free speech, intellectual property, etc.) why the government has absolutely no business telling me what I can and can't put on my website. If I want to make a hideous Flash nightmare, well, it's ugly, stupid and, if I'm a business, bad for business, but part of the price of having freedom is realizing that people are going to be free to do that annoy me. I hope that such laws don't come to pass in the USA, and that they're struck down if they do-- and it's not that I want to trample the rights of the disabled, it's that I'd like to protect everyone else's in the process.

We've probably gotten off the topic of what to do about spammers in our little corner of the web, but it's an interesting discussion nonetheless... :)
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Post by Gambit37 »

Sophia wrote:There are a million reasons I can think of (free speech, intellectual property, etc.) why the government has absolutely no business telling me what I can and can't put on my website. If I want to make a hideous Flash nightmare, well, it's ugly, stupid and, if I'm a business, bad for business
I think you misunderstand. The current guidelines don't PREVENT anyone from being an ass and sticking bloated useless Flash on their sites -- they merely insist that if you do, you ALSO need alternate accessible content showing the same thing to people who might not be able to view the Flash. It's a simplified example, but gets across the largest part of the issue: having content that is ACCESSIBLE TO ALL.
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Post by ian_scho »

As a web developer I think making content accessible to all is a great thing. The problem is I just dont really know what the definition of 'accessible' is. I have always in front of me a card which is the "W3C Brief Guide to make Web Sites Accssible" but have never seen what my work looks like to a visually impared person. That plus the fact that clients don't pay for stuff like having their web sites conform to certain web standards makes it difficult for me to keep remembering to add that extra markup... Or alternative content. It all costs money and time, and I'd like to not only educate the web site creator, but the company (s)he works for, and most of all the client.
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Post by Sophia »

Gambit37 wrote:I think you misunderstand. The current guidelines ...
Well, are they "guidelines" or are they laws?

To me, there's a very big difference between saying "you should do this," which is fine, and "you have to do this," which is not fine. Whether it's making requirements on the main content, or the alternate content, or whatever, doesn't matter. It's still just more busybody government sticking its nose into matters where it has no place, which has happened increasingly as technology proliferates, and resulting in crap like DRM and increasing amounts of censorship, etc.
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Post by Gambit37 »

:shock: :shock: What? How can making the web accessible to all be considered "busybody government sticking its nose into matters where it has no place." I can't even be bothered to continue this if you really feel that way. :roll:
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Post by Sophia »

I've made a clear case on how government legislating requirements on what should be on a web site violates principles of free speech and private ownership. It's no more the government's place to tell me what to do in my own home page as what to do in my own home. It doesn't matter how lofty the goals are-- it still violates these rights. You always simply come back with some vague idea of "accessibility"-- so apparently you "can't be bothered" to make a coherent argument, either.

What is this "accessibility for all"? Does that mean I can't ban ip addresses? It make it inaccessible to some, then! What if my site is a photo album, what do I do then? Or an 'artsy' site, or something like Notpron, where the whole layout of the site is a game and puzzle?

Please explain. If you can be bothered. :roll:
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Post by Gambit37 »

Sophia wrote:I've made a clear case on how government legislating requirements on what should be on a web site violates principles of free speech and private ownership.
And I already explained that it's nothing to do with WHAT you put on your site, it's how you do it that's important.
Sophia wrote:It's no more the government's place to tell me what to do in my own home page as what to do in my own home. It doesn't matter how lofty the goals are-- it still violates these rights.
I concede that personal homepages may well fall outside any future legislation for the reason you mention. However, your argument still doesn't make sense in the context of a website providing a product or service. Are you saying that a company's right to not make their website accessible is more important than the rights of disabled customers to view it?
Sophia wrote:You always simply come back with some vague idea of "accessibility"
My bad, I made an assumption that you knew more about it than you do.
Sophia wrote:What is this "accessibility for all"? Does that mean I can't ban ip addresses? It make it inaccessible to some, then!
Heh, fair point.

For more information, go here:
http://www.w3.org/WAI/
http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/accessibility.php

It should be noted that the guidelines themselves are not a legal document, but they are accepted as forming the basis of evidence for legal challenges to websites that are deemed inaccessible. USA case law already has example of this, I'll dig out the links when I can.
Sophia wrote:What if my site is a photo album, what do I do then? Or an 'artsy' site, or something like Notpron, where the whole layout of the site is a game and puzzle?
This is currently a big problem. By their nature, these sites are generally much more inaccessible. Especially Flash only sites which are games, puzzles, galleries, etc. Although the guidelines offer some pointers (by providing alternative text or audio content that describes the nature of the information), in practice it's impossible to make sites like these truly accessible. I don't think this will change until such time as tools like Flash are completely re-engineered with accessibility in mind.
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Post by Sophia »

Gambit37 wrote:And I already explained that it's nothing to do with WHAT you put on your site, it's how you do it that's important.
I don't really see the difference. Though "what" may be the content, and "how" may be the style in which it's presented, when you get right down to it the "what" and the "how" are both just bits and bytes coming created by me (free speech) from a computer/website that I own (personal property) or have been given the right to use. (someone else's personal property-- but that makes it their decision, not the government's)
Gambit37 wrote:I concede that personal homepages may well fall outside any future legislation for the reason you mention. However, your argument still doesn't make sense in the context of a website providing a product or service. Are you saying that a company's right to not make their website accessible is more important than the rights of disabled customers to view it?
First of all, that's an important exception. :)
The issue, to me, is what is "personal," and what is a "company"? Between a government's own sites, which must be accessible to as many people as possible to be any good to their citizens, and the purely individual personal, waste-of-space homepage, there's going to be some grey area, and "commerce" is not a feasable dividing line-- the web is full of huge noncommercial open source software projects and tiny home-based businesses.

As for your question about "rights", to answer purely from a standpoint of my ideology, I don't really believe there's any "right" for customers to be able to view the web sites of any privately owned entity, be it individual, business, or whatever. Please note that I, personally, don't have some hardcore Social Darwinist view about this: I actually think accessibility for as many people as possible is a great idea. I just get nervous about the idea of the government telling people it's a good idea and punishing them if they don't agree. Individuals have the right to do what they want, and the business is only shooting itself in the foot and depriving itself of customers if it doesn't.

I will also say, though, that answering the question from a purely ideological standpoint probably misses out on a great many of the subtleties that make up the reality of the situation. Pure capitalism, "voting with the wallet" so to speak, works fine as long as there's an alternative, but there sometimes isn't. Trying to boycott a successful business because of an issue that too few people care about also rarely leads anywhere. So, in this real, imperfect world, businesses need some regulation, to prevent widespread corporate abuses that pure capitalism's financial rewards for good behavior and punishments for bad behavior could not prevent.

My view is, though, that these legislations are simply stopgaps. It's impossible to legislate things like good manners, common sense, and sensible behavior, so the best thing to do is just pass a few laws that put enough figurative band-aids on the wound to keep us from bleeding to death. Somewhere, there have to be laws to keep corporations "good citizens," but somewhere, a line has to be drawn where it becomes a matter of individual rights, too. Where the line should be drawn in this case is something that, honestly, I'm not sure about at all. Broad, sweeping language, especially about something is far-reaching as the web, though, always makes me think the line is a little too far out there for my liking.

Thanks for the links. :)
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Post by Gambit37 »

The problem with ideological standpoints is that they rarely factor in the biggest problem with maintaining them: the needs of real people.

OK, forget about websites and government legislation as that's really getting away from what I see as the important part: accessibility. Consider this:

A wheelchair bound person wants to go and see a movie but they can't get into the cinema because there is no disabled access. They complain to the cinema owner who says "Tough, I'm not investing in access for you as you're the only wheelchair bound person who has complained and it's not in my financial interest to make access for you." So the person goes through a long legal process which eventually proves their right to access is part of their civil liberties and that they have been unfairly discriminated against due to their disability.

The cinema owner is forced to build ramps, widen the doors and remove some seats in the auditorium to make space for wheelchairs. The case is a landmark case, and the case law causes changes in the constitution that ensure access for everyone to all products, and services. The cinema owner originally was pissed off at the decision, but eventually is happy because being the first cinema in his area to offer disabled access both brought him some increased revenue and also made him a better person (but hey that's probably a leap).

Now, imagine you are that person in the wheelchair turning up to the cinema and not being able to get in. Would you happily go away thinking "Well, fair enough, it's his right not to let me in"? I doubt it.

I don't think your view is very sensible in the face of real world injustices faced by people every day and to be fair you also made that point.
I just get nervous about the idea of the government telling people it's a good idea and punishing them if they don't agree
It's not really about punishment, it's about awareness of ones responsibilities to everyone in the community. I personally think such laws are a great thing. If you're morally corrupt as a business or even an individual and don't think that the rights of the disabled (or whatever) are important, then you should certainly be taken to task over it.
I don't really believe there's any "right" for customers to be able to view the web sites of any privately owned entity, be it individual, business, or whatever
That's the fundamental issue here and one I cannot agree with you on. I also find it highly peculiar statement considering your views on free speech! You believe in freedom of speech but you also seem to be advocating the right for you to limit who can hear what your saying!?
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Post by beowuuf »

Gambit wrote:A wheelchair bound person wants to go and see a movie but they can't get into the cinema because there is no disabled access. They complain to the cinema owner who says "Tough, I'm not investing in access for you as you're the only wheelchair bound person who has complained and it's not in my financial interest to make access for you." So the person goes through a long legal process which eventually proves their right to access is part of their civil liberties and that they have been unfairly discriminated against due to their disability.
Well that's actually quite a scary thought, that it is actually a legal right to have a non-esential consumer service provided...so is it a legal right that children should be allowed to buy fireworks, cigarettes, etc?

The usualy argument when we try to impose legal requirements companies don't like on them is is 'market forces' - usually it's crap, but this time it is true. If a cinema does not provide wheelchair access nor a shopping service easy website access for blind people, then you complain or shop around and therefore go to ones that do, that chain loses valuable market share and is therefore forced by consumer pressure to change

Only a public service (transport), a company that has a monopoly, or a necessary life service (electicity, water) should be frced into this, because they are through their actions directly affecting civil liberties and living.

Or else, as well intentioned as it is, if you provide the loophole that it is a mandatory thing that people must be allowed to buy, then companies could well turn it around and make it legal they MUST be allowed to sell. A spammer, for example, actually suing a site for blocking his IP adress or deleting his posts as removing his apparent legal right to sell, if it is a legal right to buy non-essential services/ After all, you are removing accessabuility from those who have a right to buy the service.

Givernment has no place being where it should not be. It is to protect our rights. The fact that the right to have some leisure activity or consumable that wasn't available inthe past and can be lived without seems frankly extreme.

I am not saying it is black and white, if government do not push, then appathetic consumers and corporate mandate make all these changes slow, or make sure they are circumvented. That just means people ahve to speak louder to get what they want, not that government shouild draw up a perscriptive legislation, as the problem with that becomes pages of conditions, and any new situation will bypass it through not being references, and meanwhile loopholes in the letter not the spirit of any legislation will still be found.
Last edited by beowuuf on Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Gambit37 »

Uhm... so you're basically supporting discrimination against the disabled?
beowuuf wrote:Well that's actually quite a scary thought, that it is actually a legal right to have a non-esential consumer service provided...so is it a legal right that children should be allowed to buy fireworks, cigarettes, etc?
I don't think the "essentialness" even comes into it -- it's discrimanation however you look at it.

Not sure about your point about kids and cigs/fireworks. Do you mean that my argument implies anyone should have access to anything they want?
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Post by beowuuf »

No, I'm disciminating against every single abled bodied person in the community that sits on their fat arses and happily pays for services that dsicriminate against others rather than show some community spirit and actually sent letters of complain and boycott that chain/bulidng until it allows access to all.

Giovernment has no business legislating for non-essential consumer services, it should be up to all of us to be the ones voting with our wallets. Government only has a place legistlating against essential services as it is unfair to have to play chicken with your own life and the lives of your family jsut to get a company to budge on an issue, when the company has the upper hand by the service they provide.

A cinema didn't provide wheelchair access, the community should be the ones to boycott the place until they put previsions in place to allow access, givernment shouldn't force a company to do it as it sets a precident and just allows people in general to assume its someone else's problem and they can get on with their own comfortable lives.


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Post by beowuuf »

a) not arguing with discrimination being bad, I am arguing with who should do somethign about it. I'm arguing aginst the presidents both of people not standing up for other people and allowing someone else to do it for them, when in a free market economy that is the BIGGEST factor is consumer power. And the president of letting that someone else be a body who isn't actually well placed, nor infact with a good track record, or doing the best about it, and infact should begetting involved in these sorts of matters. The second you make it a legal rather than an ethical requiremtn, you have a baseline of minimums that companies have to meet, and nothing more. You therefore ned further legislation and further legislation to tightenn it up. Whne, if it came down to consumer pressure than has no black and white minimums, merely perceptions, then compnaies would have to ensure they exceesed the expectation for no loss of busniess.

b) My children example was an extreme example to quickly highlight the point, but since we are arguning legaliy, I was just showing how once you put things in blakc and white, then you keep havign to do that, or else legal pshes, loophole,s and further tightening are always required.

The law sees no common sense, so discrimination if it is legislated aganst then must either have limits which will need to be always shifted, or else be wider open and so can be abused.

People power needs no time to go through parliament, no long winded debates and compromises - if people feel strongly enouhg to suport those cliaming discrimination in pushing for better service, you can affect their profit margins and brand image that very day
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Post by Tom Hatfield »

I have a bit of a counter point. What about people like me who want to ignore accessibility features altogether? Is it ethical for Windows to have accessibility features that cannot be removed or disabled, that can sometimes be inadvertantly enabled as a result, hampering productivity of a user who would otherwise do quite perfectly fine without them? (Whoever invented ShiftLock, made it an arbitrary feature, and then made it next to impossible to disable once it turns itself on deserves a painful demise.)

I would say the same thing for web sites: if you integrate unified accessibility features into web page source, I'm downloading something I'm not even going to use in addition to the regular site material. You'd need to have an accessibility-enabled portal that points to two copies of the same site to keep sticklers like me happy, and I personally hate portals because it's one more unnecessary page I don't want and shouldn't need to load.

You could provide a link to an accessibility-enabled version of the site on the regular site. It has to (a) be clearly visible, (b) be readily accessible, and (c) not interfere with the site's regular operation. (I know, that aggregation results in a split infinitive.)
You believe in freedom of speech but you also seem to be advocating the right for you to limit who can hear what your saying!?
Aren't we all doing that by posting online? Not everyone in the world can read this, even those who don't have a reading dysfunction, but a more important point is that not everyone cares. I managed to survive my first 22 years or so without ever knowing about this forum, and if it disappeared tomorrow, I'm fairly certain it would have no perceiveable influence on my survival for the next 22 years — though I would miss the conversations.

My site is not accessibility-friendly. If the government sent me an e-mail telling me I had to add a whole bunch of new features to my site so random unknown strangers would be satisfied under ADA (our version of your DDA, I guess) or shut it down, I would probably just shut it down. I run a private web server out of my home that the vast majority of Internet users don't know or care about — it's not even indexed on the major search engines, by choice — and the work required to make it "accessible" would be fruitless and pointless, and ultimately harmful to me (I really don't want or need random visitors cutting chunks out of my bandwidth).

Freedom of speech is not really the issue, and neither is freedom of listening. The issue for people like me is simple economics. I agree 100 percent with Beo on this one: social responsibility is a social matter, not a legal one. If you're a business that can't satisfy your community, you won't be in business much longer. That's how capitalism works. Plenty of companies put forth effort to support disabled consumers, but I don't believe it should be mandatory. I think it should be an act of good faith, and it looks better that way anyway.
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Post by Sophia »

I won't go into too much detail in my reply because I don't have to. Beo and Tom have made good arguments. :)
Gambit37 wrote:Now, imagine you are that person in the wheelchair turning up to the cinema and not being able to get in. Would you happily go away thinking "Well, fair enough, it's his right not to let me in"? I doubt it.
That's a truncated version of my whole thought:
"Well, fair enough, it's his right to not let me in, but I'm going to be sure to let everyone in my family, school, work, and so on know what a jerk he is, and they'll tell everyone they know, and just maybe his profits will start to suffer as people decide they don't want to support such a business."

Granted, this can be tempered by apathy and the size of the community, but if there's only one disabled person, it's probably a small community and the entire social network of that person is probably significant. If it's a larger community, then there are disabled advocacy groups that could give the issue more attention.
Gambit37 wrote:If you're morally corrupt as a business or even an individual and don't think that the rights of the disabled (or whatever) are important, then you should certainly be taken to task over it.
Yes.
But by your customers, not the government.
Gambit37 wrote:You believe in freedom of speech but you also seem to be advocating the right for you to limit who can hear what your saying!?
"Freedom of speech" is simply that the government isn't allowed to limit who can say what, and can't use government resources to keep people from having their say. Private ownership is unaffected by this. If the file is on my computer I can grant and restrict access as I please.
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Post by Gambit37 »

Some interesting points raised all round. I'm off out soon so don't have time to answer, but will pick this up again when I have some time spare.
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Post by PaulH »

Interesting read! The accessible to all will always bring up small groups who may never be catered for easily without large financial burden for the proprietor. One example is the where I used to live, York. Many shops are located on cobbled streets with cafe tea rooms upstairs etc. Unfortunately due to the structure is is impossible to make the place accessible to wheelchair users. Even some shops that could the expense will drive them out of business. Unfortunately the world cannot cater for 100% of people 100% of the time. I don't expect shops to furnish me with a bed when I get tired when out. Yet often I need to lie down for a while which might stop me from visiting said premises if its big. Each case is unique with differing factors. I am all for more accessibility but common sense has to be applied. I don't know where this fits into web pages as I am not an expert in this matter. However I have a disability and can easily understand the difficulty than some places may have conforming. New builds and places - that is slightly different. But even then these minority cases will still be there...
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