Life, would you like a side of religion with that?

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George Gilbert
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Post by George Gilbert »

cowsmanaut wrote:anyway, the way you describe it all gives an idea of sentience to the plants though as they would need to make this change
Absolutely not! In fact, I was making precisely the opposite point!

Plants don't "choose" to evolve. It is simply a question of the "better" variations from generation to generation having a slightly higher chance of producing the next generation. That's all, and hopefully that's obvious.

As has been pointed out above, evolution takes tens of thousands of generations to take hold; 170 years, or 28 generations is nothing at all. Equally, the selective breeding of cats / dogs etc isn't evolution, that's not random genetic mutation leading to an advantage, it's selecting two parents so that the offspring have certain characteristics - completely different.

All the "counter" examples you give are nothing to do with evolution, they're completely different processes. What evolution is is the result of a series of small random changes that gives rise to a slightly better chance of breeding; that's all.

Whether that be animals that live in symbiosis or seeds or whatever, in each case there is a clear series of steps between amoebic blob and the current situation each one of which is an advantage to the last.

If you want to come up with a cast iron "proof" against evolution, all you need to do is find something where there *isn't* a series of small steps from a single cell organsim to the current species where *every single step* is an advantage over the last. For example, if there was an animal that moved by having wheels on an axle then that couldn't have evolved (because the previous step - just having an axle without any wheels - isn't an advantage, in fact it would be a disadvantage!).
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George Gilbert
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Post by George Gilbert »

BTW; this isn't an argument of Creationism vs Darwinism / theism vs atheism (as it's often made out to be by those who believe in Creationism as a way of generating support for the idea by getting people to think Darwinism is an attack on their belief system), the two can sit quite happily along side eachother.

In no way do any of the above arguments for Darwinism preclude the idea of there being a God / gods / aliens or whatever peoples favourite theory on how life started happens to be. Darwinism is simply stating that once you have life, it will evolve and diversify as a natural result of genetic mutation from generation to generation giving rise to advantages / disadvantages in breeding.
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Joramun
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Post by Joramun »

ZYX wrote:@Parallax: who is this anthropologist?
I suppose you were talking to me... so that's her :
"Homo sapiens, une nouvelle histoire de l'homme", diffusé le samedi 29 octobre 2005 par Arte, axé sur les travaux d'Anne Dambricourt
Cowsmanaut : You are confusing two very different thing if you talk of a gold fish growing bigger in a lake than in a bowl, or transplant transmitting food tastes (???)

That has nothing to do with evolution, because it has no impact on the descendance of the particular individual. It is only because of food and particular condition during growth that some individuals get bigger. You don't think that taller men are about to create a new specie, different than smaller men, do you ?

Evolution, and appearance of new species, happen only if two population of the same specie are sexually separated by a (most of the time geographical) frontier. Then the process that keeps the two populations the same specie, that is sexual crossing, doesn't happen anymore, and the populations will slowly diverge until there genes are so different that their gametes can't match. It doesn't mean the two specie adapt to different environnement : many species of rodents are very similar, but don't cross.[/quote]
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Zyx
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Post by Zyx »

Oops, sorry Joramund, I meant you of course. I criss crossed the threads I was reading.
Joramund wrote:
Evolution, and appearance of new species, happen only if two population of the same specie are sexually separated by a (most of the time geographical) frontier.
Speciation (=appearance of new species) yes, but evolution is not necessarily linked to isolation.
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Joramun
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Post by Joramun »

Of course I was talking about speciation only. Evolution is just the passive fact that life changes from one generation to the next.
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cowsmanaut
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Post by cowsmanaut »

The goldfish is an immediate result, within the same living organism, not a sort of along many generations kind of change. Still an example of a creature not following the same path as those within it's same generation. While not directly evolution, it does ask a question about how much of the evolution is based on accident? or Need?

We are supposing that animals evolve by accident and the happy accidents are the ones that survive.. but what if they are not happy accidents? What if the body recognises a need and tries to solve it. Much like the goldfish..

The goldfish is not the only example of species that has bizzare physical control. Frogs that change their sex in order to continue their species. Starfish and salamanders who can regrow limbs.

How about evolution within just a few short generations? perhaps that might be more convincing. Killer bees. They "Adapted" to a new climate one that previously would be too cold for them and they did it in a matter of a few generations within our life time and far less than 170 years. They adapt to cold, other creatures have adapted to be immune to poisons in a matter of a few generations. Such as the all mighty cockroach.

Some creatures adapt purely based on the needs of survival vs their current environment.

To bring it back around to religion vs evolution and body. How about the nuns who spontaneously have holes break in their bodies "stigmata" is it god really punishing them? Or is it their mind exercising an extreme level of control over their body. Proving that we have the ability just by will alone to change our physicality. People who faith heal, and placebos which work based simply on the patients belief.

that's the question I ask now.. is it really all accidental.. or does life exert it's own nudge based on it's preceived needs. If you don't think so.. then why not.. doesn't there seem to be enough evidence to show that there is at least a basis for use to affect changes in our own offspring and ourselves?

I'm not saying.. if we convinced ourselves and our children and so on that we needed to fly to survive that they would eventually sprout wings.. but perhaps the body makes an effort and it's part trial and error.. that make those evolutionary changes.
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Parallax
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Post by Parallax »

None of this explains how a species like the Screamer can exist. They live in adventurer-infested dungeons and they are physically weak but nutritionally delicious. So I ask you: What's in it for the screamer?

Sorry for the interruption. Do go on. :)
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Post by beowuuf »

Lol, ah, that one is simply - 'intelligent' design, in that Chaos is intelligent but hampered by his chaotic nature but got bored. Dawson's Creek season finale was coming on at the time.
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cowsmanaut
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Post by cowsmanaut »

The screamer evolved with many mouths so it can bite anyone trying to eat it.. unfortunately it's high pitched whiny voice caused people to be more intent on killing it. hmm.. I think I'll start annother thread on evolution of fantasy creatures :D

some might think I've already covered that with my posts in here.. but I like to ask the questions , even if they are bizzare..

like this..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_beetle
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