"Limbo of the Lost" and copyright

[Gambit37]

I was searching for something totally unrelated on Google, but one of the results pointed me to a game called 'Limbo of the Lost'. I didn't think much of it and nearly skipped the search result entirely until I recognised the name in the summary, Steve Bovis.

I don't know how many of you remember this guy, but he came around here a few years back, first asking for help on a Dungeon Master clone and invoking the wrath of the Copyright Gods regarding some content in Dungeon Maker. You can read all his posts here:

http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/sea ... hor=sbovis

So, after a bit of reading and following some links, this story about Limbo of the Lost is very funny. It's basically a game that stole most of it's content from other popular games and tried to pass it off as it's own. I always thought that guy was very suspect, this story just proves it.

Here's some links:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/06 ... hing-tale/
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showth ... id=2874037
http://forum.dead-code.org/index.php?to ... 5#msg18305
http://au.gamespot.com/news/6192438.html
http://forum.dead-code.org/index.php?to ... 4#msg17414
http://www.kentmessenger.co.uk/paper/de ... le_id=9644

And here's an absolutely top quality trailer!:

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/34863.html

These guys had neither the talent nor the time to develop what they wanted, so they tried to save time be using other people's work. Of course, that's not acceptable. And it made me feel uncomfortable because, in essence, I'm in the same position with my custom adventure for RTC: Bloodbane Rising as it uses work from other games (albeit only a few -- most of the stuff comes from public domain assets which *are* acceptable to use).

Now, I tried to justify this to myself by saying that my custom adventure is a freebie, but nope, that doesn't cut it. It's still stealing at the end of the day and that simply isn't on. I admit it, I've been naughty. In fact, any of us who have used other people's work for our own custom adventures have basically broken the law.

It's obviously completely unacceptable to use other people's work and to try and profit from it, but what about when you're just doing it for fun and as a hobby?

I would love to ensure that every asset used in BloodBane Rising is either original, comes from public domain libraries and resources, or has permission to be used if it was created by someone else. But the reality is that it would take me many many years as a one man developer to do that, which simply isn't possible. (I suspect that this is really the main reason behind Limbo's thieving -- I don't think it was malicious, they just wanted a way of achieving their vision *quickly* and thought they could get away with it. I can't condone it but I kind of understand it.)

Anyway, I only have two choices: Either I give up in the knowledge that I realistically can't achieve what I want, or simply limit the adventure with assets that I can either create myself or source from public domain or royalty free sources.

As I don't want to give up, choice two is the route I'll be going. Now, where are my pencils?

[Parallax]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think copyright law makes distinctions between using copyrighted material that you paid for for your own personal use, using copyrighted materials in the creation of a different piece (for an arbitrary value of "different"), distributing copyrighted materials (that you don't own the rights to) for free, and selling copyrighted materials you have no rights to for a profit.

Making a copy of a CD you own so the original doesn't get damaged falls in the first category, fair use. Buying a paperback copy of "Gone with the wind" and taking a blowtorch to it to turn it into a modern art piece titled "Gone with the fire, too" falls in the second category. Music sharing is a good example of category three.

What the "creators" of Limbo of the Lost did is either fraud or plagiarism, but it's square in category four.

The questions I think you need to ask yourself are:

Am I making a profit off of somebody else's work?
Yes: category four.
No: Keep going.

Am I costing someone money by competing with the copyright owner for the distribution of her product?
Yes: category three.
No: keep going.

Am I altering the copyrighted material enough to make it unsuitable for its original purpose?
Yes: category two.
No: category one.

Custom dungeons and clones ARE infringing upon someone's copyright (who holds it these days?). But the key here is that we are not leeching off the profits of the copyright owner. Is it even possible to license the DM brand and digital materials? If anything we are maintaining an audience for future, similar products should the copyright owner ever publish any.

Frankly, I think you're fine Gambit. I think the frowning down on copyrighted graphics in free games is part legitimate offense over copyright infringement (smallest part), part e-peen waiving for pointing out that one's computer culture is vast enough that one spotted the piece and its origin, and part "LOLOLOL n00b can't dr@w for ****" general assholery.

[Gambit37]

Man, I wish you lived nearby, you sound like a perfect drinking partner. I read your last paragraph and I haven't laughed so hard for ages! And not because I thought you were talking crap, quite the opposite, totally agree with ya (though I still have no idea what 'e-peen waiving' means!)

I am going to use the phrase "general assholery" a lot more in conversation.

[Crash.]

Was this thread really started just a few days ago? This is a weird coincidence.

Just now, I was just doing some random searching (too) and found a page about a game that was being developed called Dungeon Master 3D. The screenshots from DM3D looked nice, but I didn't see any indication it had ever been completed. I read on a bit more, and found mention of another game called "Limbo of the Lost". The overall silliness of this title did not escape me, but I had this nagging feeling I had heard of it before. Maybe, this was some other DM inspired game that I had somehow missed? I decided to continue searching.

I found one page which talked about both DM3D and LoTL, and pointed to a thread on this forum where someone was spewing legal threats towards those that might (also) use any design elements that were similar to Dungeon Master, which he didn't actually own anyway, correct?

I was bemused by the irony. I knew that I needed to see what this LoTL game was all about. That title, it was just nagging me, until I realized where I had heard it before. LoTL was this game I had read about months before, probably from a post on Digg. The makers of this game had been accused by many articles and forum posts, of pilfering from Bethesda's "The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion". Now I remembered - and I could recall wondering what they must have been thinking.

So, someone is making a DM clone, actually _calling it_ Dungeon Master, but without going through the trouble of, oh - getting permission or buying the rights to the game. Fine, but then they go so far as to warn others against using the same copyrighted material that they themselves are using. Astonishing!

Then - they go on to make another, game, but this time it is a commercial title - still for sale from what I can see, which uses assets created for a current, high profile, successful product? It gets even better...

I hadn't heard anything about this case since it originally broke. Now, it seems that Oblivion was just the beginning, while sounds, graphics, and artwork may also have been taken from as many as 16 different games, 3 films, various websites, as well as pen and paper RPGs. It is even suggested, that the title may have been lifted.

http://lotl.wikia.com/wiki/Limbo_of_the_Lost_Wiki

Wow, wow, and just... wow!

Incomprehensible jackassery

With regard to the use of artistic resources for non-profit use, I think this is a completely different from commercial use.

I'm not sure what the specific legalities are in every area, but in most cases this is the kind of thing where people tend to look the other way. There have always been (and probably will always be) custom levels, mods, and total conversions for games that use assets from other games, films, and music.

Look at the countless non-profit/freeware games and mods made based on high profile intellectual properties such as "Alien(s)", "Battlestar Galactica", "Star Wars", "Star Trek", and "Terminator". In fact, one of the earliest computer games was a non-profit "Star Trek" game, called "Star Trek", beginning around 1970. The owners of these intellectual properties do not seem to be concerned that people are using them in this way. Worst case scenario seems to be a "Cease and Desist" letter, since there is nothing else to be gained if no money is involved.

Other things to consider, is that this LoTL game appears to have been completely reliant on the work of others. I don't think their situations is really comparable to yours. It doesn't look like they just took a shortcut here and there, but brazenly took the work of others and put their own name on it, along with a price tag. Also, the fact that you are questioning whether this is the right thing to do is what sets you apart from the LoTL crew.

If you may be taking bits and pieces from here and there, altering some of them, and combining everything with your own artistic creativity, then this may be analogous to audio sampling. A lot of music from the last few decades has contained audio samples from earlier music, and this is legally considered to be okay, providing the samples do not exceed a certain length, and that they are used in a new and creative way.

I personally think it is best when an artist modifies the samples to make it their own, or avoids using the entire melody from someone else's song - and the same goes with using graphics from another game. If you are choosing only portions, and/or modifying the graphics, and combining these with your original content, I think the comparision is a valid one.

I suspect that your use of these materials probably falls into "category two", and as such, I would encourage you keep up the good work on Bloodbane Rising.

Cheers!

[linflas]

I don't know how many of you remember this guy, but he came around here a few years back, first asking for help on a Dungeon Master clone and invoking the wrath of the Copyright Gods regarding some content in Dungeon Maker.

Ahh ! i remember that Dungeon Maker thread, which was where i wrote my first post, as a guest because it was possible at the moment. I posted an Enclave screenshot with a fake interface showing my ideas concerning a 3D version of DM.
And Steve Bovis came... and after reading all that Limbo story, i feel like i GAVE him the idea.

Nevertheless, his DM3D project was definitely ugly...

concerning the using of copyright material in free hobby productions, i won't change my mind and will continue leeching stuff from Google images and other CoolMiniOrNot stuff for Forest of Doom.
i'll probably credit the websites (the ones i remember !) where i found that material but nothing more.

[Joramun]

There's stealing and stealing, and guilt and guilt

I consider stealing and acknowledging
that you're not the author is ok,
if you don't make profit about it.
You don't always abide by the law,
But at least you respect authorship.

On the other hand, stealing and
pretending you're the author, or
selling the stuff (which means you
consider yourself as the author)
is morally bad and legally forbidden.

But you can find examples of theft
that are morally bad and still allowed:
Advertising that use well known tunes
for product X of company Y, sometimes
with no need of paying property rights
because the music is in the public domain
or modified enough to come out of property.

[Gambit37]

Thanks for the other perspectives, I feel a bit better about it now.

And I now have two new phrases to use in conversation: "general assholery" and "Incomprehensible jackassery".

[Parallax]

Any degree copyright infringement beyond what is explicitly defined as "fair use" is illegal. The categories I made in my previous post are definitely not legal ones, (as I am not a lawyer,) but rather moral ones (even though I'm not a moralist either). For instance, I don't think it will be news to anybody here that people have been successfully prosecuted for distributing (a.k.a. sharing) copyrighted music, to which they didn't own the rights, over the internet for free. But somehow, most people would consider that offense "not-as-bad" as selling bootleg CDs on sidewalks.

Even nonprofit uses are technically illegal. J. K. Rowling of Harry Potter fame is famous for going after the authors of fan fictions that use her characters. And nobody can legally use the term "Hobbit" without permission from the Tolkien estate.

I agree with Joramund that "creative" minds with a keen understanding of the law can find ways to use other people's work without having to pay for it, legally defrauding the authors. Why someone would rather pay a lawyer and be a jerk than pay the artist and be a sponsor is not something I can pretend to understand.

Gambit, sorry, it seems that "e-peen waiving" hasn't made its way into slang dictionaries yet. It's short for electronic penis waiving, basically a pissing contest for nerds. And I'm moving back to France in a month, so I'll be closer if you'd like to go for a drink. I sure would, I have yet to meet anybody from these forums.

[zoom]

But somehow, most people would consider that offense "not-as-bad" as selling bootleg CDs on sidewalks.

erm, how about owning bootleg copies that you happened to buy probably without knowledge of it being a bootleg because it looked original, in say china?
Would the selling be differently worse than the buying?
As a consumer you can hardly tell the difference, I guess you had to generally avoid buying anything not being officially, meaning not at all in other countries, esp. Asian ones..Can this be?

On a related matter, in italy you are fined if you buy fake designer clothing or Sunglasses.
a 1000 Euros .They did that to get rid of trademark damaging fakes on beaches or so.which leads me to fines in general, which has in nearly all countries (with the EU )gone up through the roof.( most of the time related to cars and tourists )

[Parallax]

I don't know if you can buy a bootleg copy of anything on a beach or sidewalk anywhere in the world and claim in good conscience that you didn't know it wasn't the genuine article. Rolex watch for $10? Mmmh, let me think for a second. Oh, it says "Rollex" on it. Maybe that's why they're selling it so cheap.

However, I find it to be besides the point, and the fines put on the consumer for the crime of the forger are misguided. If I'm on the beach and I forgot my sunglasses at the hotel, but some guy is walking all the way up to my towel to offer me a cheap pair, why should I not buy them? I know they're not brand stuff, and they will probably break after a few hours, but they save me a trip back to my room. Laziness is not a crime.

[Crash.]

All aboard the off topic train!

I think Rowling needs to be careful about the legal threats too, since Potter seems way too similar to someone else's book series and film, "The Worst Witch" written decades before:

http://www.geocities.com/sayswamp/worst.htm

An edited synopsis of the 1986 film, based on the 1974 novel:

The Worst Witch, based on the novel by Jill Murphy: Set in an English boarding school for witches--complete with orange and black school uniforms, broom-flying exercises, and potion assignments for lab. Characters include the incompetent student of the title, Mildred, a nasty head teacher, an idolized Grand Wizard, the school's kindly dean, and her evil witch twin, who's bent on taking over the school. The beleaguered heroine overcomes her wickedly snooty rival, a teacher who doesn't believe in her, and a band of dastardly witches and, of course, saves the day. --Kimberly Heinrichs

At least four books in this series were released before the first Harry Potter book.

Regarding use of things like characters and names, while some people will make an issue about it, others do not. As I recall, "Hobbits" appear as a character or creature type in a handful of videogames. I'm not sure if anything was ever done about that. "Hobbit" is considered a trademark of the Tolkein estate, probably not just due to the character race, but as a result of the use as a book title. Still, I found at least three unoffical "Hobbit" games via google (I'm pretty sure they didn't give permission for "Hobbit Rampage") - so again, I'm not sure that most people really care as long as you aren't making money or defiling their work.

With regard to the categories of use, I realize that there are not official criteria, although the distinctions mentioned are those that generally decide the court cases on these matters. One of the critical ones is whether the material has been altered and has become creatively distinct from the original source. Money is obviously the other big one.

Seeing as how you are altering the faces, adding shadows, re-coloring, and perhaps even altering pose and gear, these graphics do seem to become distinct from the originals.

I posted an Enclave screenshot with a fake interface showing my ideas concerning a 3D version of DM.
And Steve Bovis came... and after reading all that Limbo story, i feel like i GAVE him the idea.

Ha, someone stole your idea! Frivolous lawsuit!

Finally, I just had to take a cue from parallax since "general assholery" is utterly hilarious, and sometimes when someone does something so outrageous as with LoTL, you have to make up a word to adequately describe it

Cheers!

[PadTheMad]

I remember reading about Limbo of the Lost on Joystiq and Kotaku when the whole copyright shebang started, never thought it'd get linked back to here.

It's worth reading the original thread over at NeoGAF where it was first noticed, if only to see the true extent of the plagarism involved - Oblivion, Lord Of The Rings (Games AND Movies), World of Warcraft, Unreal Tournament 2004, even Beetlejuice for Christ's sake! Even the unreleased Amiga version of the game has stolen assests in it as well!

This is obviously an extreme case of plagerism in the industry, and the people involved knew full well what they were doing - trying to make a profit from other people's hard work. I think that using assets from other work to use in a hobby is nowhere near as bad, especially if it's not for profit.

I can't speak for everyone but I think it's reasonable to say that most people probably wouldn't mind, provided you gave credit. If for example, I created a model to be used in a game, but it would only be used in that one game commercially, I'd much rather see it used again in some way rather than be left for Father Time to pick up and put away forever.

I'm not sure if any of you know already but Microsoft took and unprecedented step not so long ago and granted licence for personal use of assets from games they've published. Meaning if you want to put Master Chief in your custom dungeon, then that's perfectly ok (though maybe not perfectly fitting, or even sane for that matter).

Most of what has been said in the previous posts matches my sentiments and if I go on I'll start repeating what's been said already. At the end of the day though, aren't games all about fun?! We should have more of it then! I understand that some people may be protective of their work but if you can, try and speak to the creators of the assets, you may find that they are fine with it, and may even take interest

LINKS:

Original NeoGAF LotL thread

Microsoft Game Content Usage Rules

[Mon Ful Ir]

Re-using graphics and content from a 20-year-old game without permission may be a crime in some jurisdictions, but it's a victimless crime. It harms nobody.

I rate it somewhere between "exceeding the speed limit on an empty road" and "letting a teenager have a beer" on the heinousness scale.

[sucinum]

This makes me sad. It is (or has been) the dream of many of us to have their computer game on the shelf in a shiny box. Steve Bovis worked many years for this dream and the day, the game was released, it was teared apart. Look at the pride: http://www.kentonline.co.uk/images/pape ... 3578_l.jpg
Sure, the way he did it was not proper and he clearly has issues, but i can feel with him. It overgrew him but he didn't want or even couldn't stop. There where many obstacles, even a fully finished game which couldn't be released since the system for it already died out. A quote: "My job is to put the game together and create all the visuals, coding, sounds, models, marketing and basically make the game flow and work. As well as manage and try to motivate the team. A job that is hard enough at the best of times!". No way a single man can do this, fail was inevitable. He just didn't want know.
I don't think he wanted to harm anybody, but he was fixated on his goal and wouldn't accept defeat. He might not be a likeably person (at least not from what we have seen from him), but i still feel bad for him.
I hope he is well.

[Gambit37]

I don't feel bad for him at all. The guy is all ego with no humility whatsoever. He deserves the fallout from this debacle.

[Crash.]

Re-using graphics and content from a 20-year-old game without permission may be a crime in some jurisdictions, but it's a victimless crime. It harms nobody.

Perhaps, but I think the point was that this was a guy that scolded others at the prospect of using graphics from a 20 year old game in non-profit projects, but then went on to build his own commercial game filled with graphics from tons of current games.

I can't say that I can feel badly for someone who experienced a bad outcome because they did something that they absolutely knew they shouldn't be doing.

Cheers!

On the other hand, it would be kind of entertaining to deliberately put together a spoof game with guest appearances by characters, creatures, and locations from other games.

[Bit]

My brother just tricked me into guild wars.
First thing I spotted was, that the magician's animation is pretty the same like in 'Sacred' (maybe really just licensed or so...).
Lots of other things have their roots surely in 'Might&Magic' and 'DungeonSiege'. And GW2 is said to come close to WoW.
How many real new ideas are there today? And how much are successful? With today's budget, they can't do a risc - so they do lists what can be found in games of the same category, and work through this list - mercyless...
Isn't that all an evolution of D&D after all?

[Gambit37]

True, but there's a big difference between borrowing ideas then making them your own, versus outright stealing.

[Broken_Paladin]

I play guild wars with wife and friend, its really good game

[sucinum]

How many real new ideas are there today?

That's really not camparable to LotL, the dev definitely cut too many corners there. And even next to that, the game wasn't very brilliant. I never denied that, i only think he didn't deserve that much of public bashing.
I can sympathize with his aim, but by no means with the way he achieved it. But if he learned humility (and stuff about copyrights) from that, i can go and say "better luck with your next game, Steve".
I once had the same goal and didn't come half as far before i buried it and i think everyone of us has a similar story of an unfinished project. So he has my respect of actually holding a copy of his own game in his hands, no matter how good or proper it was.

[Bit]

If I think how much I did to make my DM-version how it is atm (*/me kicks T0mi - watch your e-mail!*), it'd be easy to say - it'd be worth that it pays off.. but then - I shouldn't have started with that way - so simple.
He even endangered the whole community because no one knows how much Steves will follow - that's also a betrayal.
No - I couldn't spend respect under those circumstances.
*Perhaps* he could have deserved it, if he had asked the community, 'people, personal problems with the job appeared, that's my last chance to earn some money, what do you think'.

[T0Mi]

This thread doesn't make much sense to me. Just like politics it's a topic that can hardly be discussed using letters put together to form words, words put together to form sentences, sentences put together to form... what? Looking at the screenshots (Oblivion/LotL) I'd say: this is a little too much of 'borrowing'. More like plainly stealing. Then again: where does inspiration end and stealing/need for permission begin? I don't know. But I certainly felt that pain in the butt *autsch* - report just has been sended!