it was requested I have a debate amongst the moderators here over the use of some of the more foul words in our english language. It appears 3 of the 4 who said anything determined that they use of them do not at all bother them and therefore I've decided to let them have their way, I however can not be a part of that and so instead I am leaving.
This is not a pouting session, nor is it a power struggle. It's instead a statement that I can not be a part of a group that simply ignores the fact that younger users to come here and that they've heard it all before so who cares..
Use of such words are not a NEEDED part of daily conversation... and while I understand that anger promotes the use of those words, that some feel it expresses their mood more effectively, I still do not see the need for it in simple conversation, which is what I've always here for. If there was some assurance that I would not have younger users here I might have been less concerned, but since that is not the case..
I have no more energy to fight and debate the issue. I've got enough of that in the rest of my life right now to really bother. So that combined with the fact that the moderators who cared enough to post, stated that they want to damn the man and "you can't censor me" rather than advocate self censorship and respect for those that come here. That is why I'm stepping down. Just in case someone decided to take it as some kind of fit about me not getting my way. It's not.. if I had wanted that I could have had it.
anyway..
The domain is paid 'till may and the webspace is paid until next november. I'm willing to transfer it to some other member who would like to take it up.
you can contact me here for a couple more days..
good luck
final words
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cowsmanaut
- Moo Master
- Posts: 4378
- Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 12:53 am
- Location: canada
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Paul Stevens
- CSBwin Guru
- Posts: 4318
- Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 6:00 pm
- Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Well, I seem to be listed as a moderator
of one of the topics so I guess I should
vote.
off by (what they consider to be)
gutter talk.
My opinion is that there is no need
for it, that it is acceptable in the
locker room, but that it should be
avoided if there is the possibility that
anyone nearby might be offended.
Young people are probably less offended
than many adults because they hear it
in school and on the street. I want to
be a better model than that.
I'm pretty old-fashioned. But tolerant.
of one of the topics so I guess I should
vote.
Many adults will be quickly puthave younger users here
off by (what they consider to be)
gutter talk.
My opinion is that there is no need
for it, that it is acceptable in the
locker room, but that it should be
avoided if there is the possibility that
anyone nearby might be offended.
Young people are probably less offended
than many adults because they hear it
in school and on the street. I want to
be a better model than that.
I'm pretty old-fashioned. But tolerant.
I am supposed to access this moderators' forum, being moderator of one of the forum?
My opinion is to keep the forum accessible to every age and to adapt your language to the current interlocutors in the chat. Which means self-censorship when it would offense someone otherwise.
As for the disagreement between users and moderators, and admin and moderators, I think it's only a small problem gone big due to emotional heat. Nobody should act or speak in anger, because there is no intelligence in it. So let a week pass before thinking about it again.
My opinion is to keep the forum accessible to every age and to adapt your language to the current interlocutors in the chat. Which means self-censorship when it would offense someone otherwise.
As for the disagreement between users and moderators, and admin and moderators, I think it's only a small problem gone big due to emotional heat. Nobody should act or speak in anger, because there is no intelligence in it. So let a week pass before thinking about it again.
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cowsmanaut
- Moo Master
- Posts: 4378
- Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 12:53 am
- Location: canada
actually, it was dissapointment I felt posting the above, not anger. Though perhaps some level of patience, or to simply have put the vote not to the moderators, but to the whole forum as I was not aware that you two did not have access.
More over, I had not continued to read the posts in the thread that started this whole thing until just now. Which explains some of the oppinions shared in the private forum and gives me a little perspective.
I should say that those arguing for their freedom to say anything makes me even more upset when confronted with instances like that.
I had no idea about the whole 10 year old thing. However, having lived with an 8 year old for a year (friends child) I noticed the very same in him. If confronted with swearing, he didn't want to participate anymore. That I'm sorry is simply sad. The whole point of this community was to include everyone!! That was the main feature of why I started it the way I did.. to bring everyone together. To have more than one moderator and share the control.. not something I saw a lot of at the time. Yet now I see it becoming more closed.. the statement of newbies as a negative is not what I wanted to see.
It leaves me with an impression of a plant that though there is new growth and new buds opening all over, the core is beginning to rot.
it's that feeling that makes me not want to be a part of it.
it's funny too, now that I think about it.. not funny haha but funny strange. That I be asked to put the vote up in the mod forum where it was already decided. Because the same 3 going against it in that other thread were the same 3 against it in the mod forum.. not only that but those for having a little self control had no access at all to the vote. Possibly coincidence though.
so now I'm wondering what to do.. I'm really not sure.
On one hand I have more than enough stress to deal with that I don't really feel like fighting for anything. In fact this has me on the verge of depression when combined with everything else that has gone wrong this year.
Yet on the other hand I feel as though I'm abandoning some kind of responsibility.
More over, I had not continued to read the posts in the thread that started this whole thing until just now. Which explains some of the oppinions shared in the private forum and gives me a little perspective.
I should say that those arguing for their freedom to say anything makes me even more upset when confronted with instances like that.
I had no idea about the whole 10 year old thing. However, having lived with an 8 year old for a year (friends child) I noticed the very same in him. If confronted with swearing, he didn't want to participate anymore. That I'm sorry is simply sad. The whole point of this community was to include everyone!! That was the main feature of why I started it the way I did.. to bring everyone together. To have more than one moderator and share the control.. not something I saw a lot of at the time. Yet now I see it becoming more closed.. the statement of newbies as a negative is not what I wanted to see.
It leaves me with an impression of a plant that though there is new growth and new buds opening all over, the core is beginning to rot.
it's that feeling that makes me not want to be a part of it.
it's funny too, now that I think about it.. not funny haha but funny strange. That I be asked to put the vote up in the mod forum where it was already decided. Because the same 3 going against it in that other thread were the same 3 against it in the mod forum.. not only that but those for having a little self control had no access at all to the vote. Possibly coincidence though.
so now I'm wondering what to do.. I'm really not sure.
On one hand I have more than enough stress to deal with that I don't really feel like fighting for anything. In fact this has me on the verge of depression when combined with everything else that has gone wrong this year.
Yet on the other hand I feel as though I'm abandoning some kind of responsibility.
If I have been less vocal about supporting cows, then I apologise in public. I have no problem with what he has said about being cleaner forum.
I think the forums have become lax, and it has shifted the tone.
Perhaps we are used to our franker conversations in chat - in terms of bluntness, rudeness, word usuage, etc. However, it seems to have spilled over into the forum to the point where we have to say 'this is obviously an adults forum' instead of 'this is a forum for everyone who loves the game.'
Of course youngers readers use certain language, and say and know things. And I think people older than the rest of us invented some of the terms and concepts
That's not the point. The point should be is this supposed to be the norm? Is this forum supposed to be a place where anything goes all the time?
Similarly, should we always instantly make points or comments when we are angry or annoyed in the general traffic areas?
If it is, we are likely to get new users who do those things as a matter of course, because that is the tone of the forum. And we are all more likely to annoy, offend or simply turn each other off to the day to day conversations and goings on in the forum threads.
If we can agree that the initial points of contact we have should be more respectful and more 'formal' in tone, then the mods know what to ask people not to do, and forum users know what is and is not questionable content in a post. And of course there is nothing to stop us having an informal forum where we can relax, nor stop us chatting normally in ajaxchat if it is just people who know each other
I think this is a separate debate from the 'editing posts behind people's back' thing, which I think has caused more of the flare up. And that issue stemmed from us not having this conversation, or at least not remember having it.
I think the forums have become lax, and it has shifted the tone.
Perhaps we are used to our franker conversations in chat - in terms of bluntness, rudeness, word usuage, etc. However, it seems to have spilled over into the forum to the point where we have to say 'this is obviously an adults forum' instead of 'this is a forum for everyone who loves the game.'
Of course youngers readers use certain language, and say and know things. And I think people older than the rest of us invented some of the terms and concepts
That's not the point. The point should be is this supposed to be the norm? Is this forum supposed to be a place where anything goes all the time?Similarly, should we always instantly make points or comments when we are angry or annoyed in the general traffic areas?
If it is, we are likely to get new users who do those things as a matter of course, because that is the tone of the forum. And we are all more likely to annoy, offend or simply turn each other off to the day to day conversations and goings on in the forum threads.
If we can agree that the initial points of contact we have should be more respectful and more 'formal' in tone, then the mods know what to ask people not to do, and forum users know what is and is not questionable content in a post. And of course there is nothing to stop us having an informal forum where we can relax, nor stop us chatting normally in ajaxchat if it is just people who know each other
I think this is a separate debate from the 'editing posts behind people's back' thing, which I think has caused more of the flare up. And that issue stemmed from us not having this conversation, or at least not remember having it.
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Ameena
- Wordweaver, Murafu Maker
- Posts: 7516
- Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 6:25 pm
- Location: Here, where I am sitting!
- Contact:
I wasn't planning on really entering any of this discussion, but that "...moderators who cared enough to post" comment just made me go "ouch", as though those of us who said nothing don't give a...well, one of those. I just don't really like getting involved in these kinds of things where bad stuff gets said - they usually seem to blow over after a while anyway, and anything I may think on the matter has pretty much already been said by other people (no-one specific, just a bit here and a bit there by pretty much everyone who's got involved), so I don't see much point in repeating it, or looking like I'm "taking sides". I'd rather just got on and was lovely and happy like we pretty much have been the whole time since I've been here (aside from the odd disagreement here and there, of course).
I think I'd better just leave it there since I don't reckon I need to say anything more. Maybe I didn't even need to say that but meh...
I think I'd better just leave it there since I don't reckon I need to say anything more. Maybe I didn't even need to say that but meh...
______________________________________________
Ameena, self-declared Wordweaver, Beastmaker, Thoughtbringer, and great smegger of dungeon editing!
Ameena, self-declared Wordweaver, Beastmaker, Thoughtbringer, and great smegger of dungeon editing!
Hey Cows, I'm sorry to hear that you probably intend to leave us, or at least seriously consider it. I'm especially sorry, because I regard you as a friend, and I always assumed that friends can be of different oppinion without turning their backs on each other, so all I can say, please don't leave us just because we disagree in that topic. Friends should respect different oppinions, and it' be really sad not having you around here.
Like often with a public debate written stuff tends to make arguments hotter than verbal ones, because once you've written it everyone can re-read it and notice motives you wouldn't notice if you just heard it once in a verbal conversation, plus, you can't notice from the face of someone when you're starting to annoy him/her, but only notice that you have annoyed someone long after doing so. We all aren't exactly newbies to the internet and should be aware of that, and because we are aware we should not take every single word someone posted as a potential offense. Most offenses in public forums were never meant to be such.
But let's for a moment reconsider what this all is about. Is about an aspect of the forum that is with a couple of recent exceptions mostly academical. We don't have much rude language around here, really not, and if on some rare occasion a regular like Gambit quotes something rude, that should not be the spark that makes a long-standing community like ours seriously quarrel with each other.
Gambit was annoyed, which I can completely understand. I recently left a local Babylon-5 forum I used be rather fond of because the admin there repeatedly edited/deleted perfectly non-offensive contents I had posted just because it wasn't what he would have posted if he was me.
From all that has been said I think it is easy to agree upon next time such a thing happens there will be a polite PM about perceived rudeness to its author instead of direct editing. That's really not much to ask.
The other incident is admittedly more difficult, because live chats are harder to control and can't be modded like posts can. I'm not happy with what hapened, and while I might disagree with Masterwuuf about a couple of things, he shouldn't have been ignored when he especially mentioned his kid being about.
Still, that is ONE such incident in many a year, and it was done not by everyone around here, there were but a few involved, so if anyone wants to insist on staying angry and breaking friendships, please keep it to the persons actually involved and don't generalize it to all other regulars or force them to take sides. I'm neither happy about what Sophia did nor I'm happy about the conclusions Cows and Masterwuuf draw from it, but I'm especially unhappy if that incident makes us making a mountain out of a molch.
I'm still with Gambit that we don't need a general censoring, I'm with Cows and Masterwuuf in that we do edit extreme cussing, and I'm with Beo that we try to fix things with a couple of PMs rather than by directly editing other people's stuff. Yet among you there isn't a single person I'm not also disagreeing in some aspect of this entire topic. Please stay friends anyway and don't turn your back on me.
Like often with a public debate written stuff tends to make arguments hotter than verbal ones, because once you've written it everyone can re-read it and notice motives you wouldn't notice if you just heard it once in a verbal conversation, plus, you can't notice from the face of someone when you're starting to annoy him/her, but only notice that you have annoyed someone long after doing so. We all aren't exactly newbies to the internet and should be aware of that, and because we are aware we should not take every single word someone posted as a potential offense. Most offenses in public forums were never meant to be such.
But let's for a moment reconsider what this all is about. Is about an aspect of the forum that is with a couple of recent exceptions mostly academical. We don't have much rude language around here, really not, and if on some rare occasion a regular like Gambit quotes something rude, that should not be the spark that makes a long-standing community like ours seriously quarrel with each other.
Gambit was annoyed, which I can completely understand. I recently left a local Babylon-5 forum I used be rather fond of because the admin there repeatedly edited/deleted perfectly non-offensive contents I had posted just because it wasn't what he would have posted if he was me.
From all that has been said I think it is easy to agree upon next time such a thing happens there will be a polite PM about perceived rudeness to its author instead of direct editing. That's really not much to ask.
The other incident is admittedly more difficult, because live chats are harder to control and can't be modded like posts can. I'm not happy with what hapened, and while I might disagree with Masterwuuf about a couple of things, he shouldn't have been ignored when he especially mentioned his kid being about.
Still, that is ONE such incident in many a year, and it was done not by everyone around here, there were but a few involved, so if anyone wants to insist on staying angry and breaking friendships, please keep it to the persons actually involved and don't generalize it to all other regulars or force them to take sides. I'm neither happy about what Sophia did nor I'm happy about the conclusions Cows and Masterwuuf draw from it, but I'm especially unhappy if that incident makes us making a mountain out of a molch.
I'm still with Gambit that we don't need a general censoring, I'm with Cows and Masterwuuf in that we do edit extreme cussing, and I'm with Beo that we try to fix things with a couple of PMs rather than by directly editing other people's stuff. Yet among you there isn't a single person I'm not also disagreeing in some aspect of this entire topic. Please stay friends anyway and don't turn your back on me.
Parting is all we know from Heaven, and all we need of hell.
Hi, sorry i'm doign five differnt thigns at once, and now my bed is delivered i guess i need to go to work again instead of fixing them!
I reckon there is no harm, since we are all getting more comofrtable with each other, to create an infomal chat forum where it thigns like ajax quote of the week, and more intersting debates can go
While I have created a new general news thread where less contentious subjects (like hey, earthquake, and ooh, happy 2009) can go - so basically, anyone browsing for some fun discussions or younger knows one area is safe, the other less so
Otherwise, business as normal - i don't think swearing or anything not age appropriate, as lunever points out, really creeps in to the other forums. If it doesw, we can try a little harder to make sure it doens't in that case.
Does this sound like an ideas? If so, i will migrate a few threads in to the general news forum (like the say hi thread) and we can see if that makes us all happy.
Otherwise, hopefully we can continue chats about what our moderation style should be at another times...liek when I'm not trying to run out the door!
Hopefulyl if we've drawn a line in the sand though, this won't come up.
I reckon there is no harm, since we are all getting more comofrtable with each other, to create an infomal chat forum where it thigns like ajax quote of the week, and more intersting debates can go
While I have created a new general news thread where less contentious subjects (like hey, earthquake, and ooh, happy 2009) can go - so basically, anyone browsing for some fun discussions or younger knows one area is safe, the other less so
Otherwise, business as normal - i don't think swearing or anything not age appropriate, as lunever points out, really creeps in to the other forums. If it doesw, we can try a little harder to make sure it doens't in that case.
Does this sound like an ideas? If so, i will migrate a few threads in to the general news forum (like the say hi thread) and we can see if that makes us all happy.
Otherwise, hopefully we can continue chats about what our moderation style should be at another times...liek when I'm not trying to run out the door!
Hopefulyl if we've drawn a line in the sand though, this won't come up.-
Gambit37
- Should eat more pies
- Posts: 13715
- Joined: Wed May 31, 2000 1:57 pm
- Location: Location, Location
- Contact:
Upon reflection, I do agree with Beo and yourself Cows that there should be certain limits and I crossed the line in this case and for that I now apologise. I used a very particular phrase in a deliberate way that seems to have now labelled me as gutter trash. That's a shame, for I am not that person. I explained my use of this phrase; neverthless, it clearly offended and maybe I shouldn't have used it at all.
I agree that I do not want to see this place turn into an adults only forum and I'm sorry to say that maybe I lost some sight of that, having become very familiar with people here and comfortable with showing all sides of me. But I don't think it's actually as big a deal as we're making out: as Lunever points out, extreme cursing is a hardly a big problem here. I rarely do it, most others don't and the forum is generally pretty clean.
Cows, I'm really very sorry that you feel the need to leave over this, but I do think that you have lost sight of what my argument was about. If you want to make a stance against foul language, that's your right and in fact I applaud it, but I do feel you haven't fully dealt with the arguments against censoring. It isn't about the freedom to say ANYTHING per se -- I agree that very young minors should be protected from bad language and that as adults we have a responsibility to uphold good values. I have already agreed to self-moderate there: either you have not read that bit or you've chosen to ignore it in helping you make your decision to leave.
I wrote a reasoned argument in the mods thread about this and also mentioned it in PM and you've made no comment. I know that you have stresses in your personal life currently, goodness knows we all do; but I'd love to finish this discussion in the future when you're more able to give it your full attention.
If you still choose to leave, that's your right of course. I can't believe it's actually come to this. I will be very sorry to see you go: you made this place what it is and without your support (both financial and spiritual) this place would not exist. But I also think, as you yourself mused, that you would be failing in your responsibilities if you simply walk away. Do you really want to walk away from eight years of friendships simply because of a heated argument? I dearly hope you reconsider.
I also feel that on a personal level this is unresolved. Please, please take up my olive branch offer at the end of my last message. I understand if you don't have time or energy to do so at the the moment, but please don't completely walk away from us all.
I wish I had a voice of brevity. Least said, soonest mended.
I agree that I do not want to see this place turn into an adults only forum and I'm sorry to say that maybe I lost some sight of that, having become very familiar with people here and comfortable with showing all sides of me. But I don't think it's actually as big a deal as we're making out: as Lunever points out, extreme cursing is a hardly a big problem here. I rarely do it, most others don't and the forum is generally pretty clean.
Cows, I'm really very sorry that you feel the need to leave over this, but I do think that you have lost sight of what my argument was about. If you want to make a stance against foul language, that's your right and in fact I applaud it, but I do feel you haven't fully dealt with the arguments against censoring. It isn't about the freedom to say ANYTHING per se -- I agree that very young minors should be protected from bad language and that as adults we have a responsibility to uphold good values. I have already agreed to self-moderate there: either you have not read that bit or you've chosen to ignore it in helping you make your decision to leave.
I wrote a reasoned argument in the mods thread about this and also mentioned it in PM and you've made no comment. I know that you have stresses in your personal life currently, goodness knows we all do; but I'd love to finish this discussion in the future when you're more able to give it your full attention.
If you still choose to leave, that's your right of course. I can't believe it's actually come to this. I will be very sorry to see you go: you made this place what it is and without your support (both financial and spiritual) this place would not exist. But I also think, as you yourself mused, that you would be failing in your responsibilities if you simply walk away. Do you really want to walk away from eight years of friendships simply because of a heated argument? I dearly hope you reconsider.
I also feel that on a personal level this is unresolved. Please, please take up my olive branch offer at the end of my last message. I understand if you don't have time or energy to do so at the the moment, but please don't completely walk away from us all.
I wish I had a voice of brevity. Least said, soonest mended.
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cowsmanaut
- Moo Master
- Posts: 4378
- Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 12:53 am
- Location: canada
Again it's not a heated argument. It was fully due to dissapointment of hearing friends say things that were morally opposing to what I thought was a reasonable request.
I said that I'm not for censoring peoples normal words. That I do not delete entire sentences or change meanings of them. What I did is I changed two letters to soften some rather harsh words that I thought upon reflecting of the author were more harsh than intended. I did it in such a way that the meaning and intent of the message were unchanged. I felt it was easier to just do such a minor change then send an email, and now based on what I've seen here : argue it for 3 days, and then have it changed. Gambit, you said sorry for the use of the words and left them up there. after I read that I made the change. It seemed like simple logic to me. If you feel bad, why leave it for others to read when a simple adjustment would make the difference.
I've let a few slip here myself and went back to edit them right away. It happens.. you hang out with friends who are cursing a lot and you sometimes get a bit of a brain fart which leads to you slip in a word.
To explain what I reacted to, was not specifically that Gambit got mad at me for editing.. yes that did upset me, but not enough to want to leave.
What it was, was a statement that "I don't want to be edited under any circumstance" and "I don't want newbies telling what to do" etc. It was as if it was a statement "I can do whatever the hell I want so bugger off". There was seemingly nothing to say "yes we could and should exhibit self control for the sake of others because it's respectful" it was "14 year olds have heard it all before" it was excuse after excuse for why you should be allowed to do so and it was selfish and disheartening. It didn't make me angry, it made me sad. I felt like I was suddenly morally opposed to friends I've known for years and I had no idea how it had happened.
I felt that if I wanted to remain friends I had to leave the forum.
Now that I'm being asked to stay by so many, I do want to stay, I always did want to stay, but felt that I simply could not handle it... and yet now I feel as though my staying will appear as though some sort of ploy to have my way, which is what I expressly put I was not doing. I'm uncertain if this is people agreeing because they were blinded by something else before.. or simply because they don't want me to leave?
Friends can have opposing points of views, and I'd rather people express themselves honestly rather than fear I'll have some sort of fit and "threaten" to leave.
This is probably the toughest point I've ever reached here.
Upon the advice of several including some not invloved with the site, I'm going to stay. However I have an offer from Beowuuf to take over should I decide to leave at some point in the future. Which makes me feel more comfortable.
so, I'll stick around I guess. I think having this informal chat area that can have some stronger language and debates is a potential solution.
I'm willing to post warnings about foul language and allow people to self edit.. but the question comes up.. what to do when they won't?
I said that I'm not for censoring peoples normal words. That I do not delete entire sentences or change meanings of them. What I did is I changed two letters to soften some rather harsh words that I thought upon reflecting of the author were more harsh than intended. I did it in such a way that the meaning and intent of the message were unchanged. I felt it was easier to just do such a minor change then send an email, and now based on what I've seen here : argue it for 3 days, and then have it changed. Gambit, you said sorry for the use of the words and left them up there. after I read that I made the change. It seemed like simple logic to me. If you feel bad, why leave it for others to read when a simple adjustment would make the difference.
I've let a few slip here myself and went back to edit them right away. It happens.. you hang out with friends who are cursing a lot and you sometimes get a bit of a brain fart which leads to you slip in a word.
To explain what I reacted to, was not specifically that Gambit got mad at me for editing.. yes that did upset me, but not enough to want to leave.
What it was, was a statement that "I don't want to be edited under any circumstance" and "I don't want newbies telling what to do" etc. It was as if it was a statement "I can do whatever the hell I want so bugger off". There was seemingly nothing to say "yes we could and should exhibit self control for the sake of others because it's respectful" it was "14 year olds have heard it all before" it was excuse after excuse for why you should be allowed to do so and it was selfish and disheartening. It didn't make me angry, it made me sad. I felt like I was suddenly morally opposed to friends I've known for years and I had no idea how it had happened.
I felt that if I wanted to remain friends I had to leave the forum.
Now that I'm being asked to stay by so many, I do want to stay, I always did want to stay, but felt that I simply could not handle it... and yet now I feel as though my staying will appear as though some sort of ploy to have my way, which is what I expressly put I was not doing. I'm uncertain if this is people agreeing because they were blinded by something else before.. or simply because they don't want me to leave?
Friends can have opposing points of views, and I'd rather people express themselves honestly rather than fear I'll have some sort of fit and "threaten" to leave.
This is probably the toughest point I've ever reached here.
Upon the advice of several including some not invloved with the site, I'm going to stay. However I have an offer from Beowuuf to take over should I decide to leave at some point in the future. Which makes me feel more comfortable.
so, I'll stick around I guess. I think having this informal chat area that can have some stronger language and debates is a potential solution.
I'm willing to post warnings about foul language and allow people to self edit.. but the question comes up.. what to do when they won't?
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karamell116
- Neophyte
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:36 pm
let's just sit and think
I've read most of the posts on the whole matter.
First
I think the pro curse language are fooling themselves thinking they're just between themselves (i.e. adults) on a public forum.
why ?
Google ! Anyone of any age CAN have access to the content.
So this point of warning when kids are around is crazy and does not make sense at all to the scale of the internet and its use. Everyone can virtually AND technically have access to a public page.
Second
How come censorship equates to the change of two letters on a word that is everything but necessary to convey an opinion ?
The Collins dictionnary gives this definition of the verb "to censor" :
"If someone in authority censors letters or media, they officially examine them and cut out any information that is regarded as secret"
Do you guys REALLY feel threatened when the f* word is replaced or even dismissed ?
How about we have the chance to listen to you instead of hearing you out ?
Third
Kids have already heard it. I'm a language teacher and I've noticed that people rarely need a lesson on how to curse in a foreign language.
Does this mean we want to be remembered as the one forum that taught the bad word to someone ?
Fourth
Cow leaving = cow giving up his responsibilities towards the forum. What if by leaving he was actually showing how much he cares for this forum and how deeply disturbing some swear words can be in his duties to maintain a forum of a high standard ? What if by leaving the forum he would be making you think on whether or not this matter (which admittedly went out of hand) is relevant to thegood functioning forum ?
Fifth
Not editing posts so that you feel a little more free to express yourself. You all admit that this forum is great because there's not so many cursing words... Why ? Self-restraint and second examination by the administrators. We all agreed to the second part when registrering. So make it your rule ! If you're not happy with it, try on another forum see if the grass is greener there.
Think and think well
First
I think the pro curse language are fooling themselves thinking they're just between themselves (i.e. adults) on a public forum.
why ?
Google ! Anyone of any age CAN have access to the content.
So this point of warning when kids are around is crazy and does not make sense at all to the scale of the internet and its use. Everyone can virtually AND technically have access to a public page.
Second
How come censorship equates to the change of two letters on a word that is everything but necessary to convey an opinion ?
The Collins dictionnary gives this definition of the verb "to censor" :
"If someone in authority censors letters or media, they officially examine them and cut out any information that is regarded as secret"
Do you guys REALLY feel threatened when the f* word is replaced or even dismissed ?
How about we have the chance to listen to you instead of hearing you out ?
Third
Kids have already heard it. I'm a language teacher and I've noticed that people rarely need a lesson on how to curse in a foreign language.
Does this mean we want to be remembered as the one forum that taught the bad word to someone ?
Fourth
Cow leaving = cow giving up his responsibilities towards the forum. What if by leaving he was actually showing how much he cares for this forum and how deeply disturbing some swear words can be in his duties to maintain a forum of a high standard ? What if by leaving the forum he would be making you think on whether or not this matter (which admittedly went out of hand) is relevant to thegood functioning forum ?
Fifth
Not editing posts so that you feel a little more free to express yourself. You all admit that this forum is great because there's not so many cursing words... Why ? Self-restraint and second examination by the administrators. We all agreed to the second part when registrering. So make it your rule ! If you're not happy with it, try on another forum see if the grass is greener there.
Think and think well
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cowsmanaut
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Sophia
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Re: let's just sit and think
Actually, what bothers me is the use of "proxy words" like "fork," "f*" and so on. In this case, you're using it for illustrative purposes without actually wanting to say the word, and that's fine. However, if someone is actually cursing and using a proxy word rather than the real one, I don't see how that's any better-- everyone knows what word you mean. What is being gained by not saying it?karamell116 wrote:Do you guys REALLY feel threatened when the f* word is replaced or even dismissed ?
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cowsmanaut
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well, there are those points when you start with a nice long FFFFFFFFFFFFF which ends in -udge because you've noticed you were about to swear. why bother? why not just feel free to swear anywhere to anyone at anytime? why even make an effort to restrain yourself... ?
In most cases using a "proxy word" is a statement of two things. One is the expression of anger or greif you wished to display, but the second is a respect for others by the use of that word as opposed to the more hash version. After all there is no other reason than respect to use a "proxy word".. So I hardly see what's wrong with it, and in fact I see that as right.
In most cases using a "proxy word" is a statement of two things. One is the expression of anger or greif you wished to display, but the second is a respect for others by the use of that word as opposed to the more hash version. After all there is no other reason than respect to use a "proxy word".. So I hardly see what's wrong with it, and in fact I see that as right.
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karamell116
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Moving away from swear workds to something that might one day come up, racial/sexual ephithets. I don't care how offensive or not the word is, it's always the intent behind it. Someone can use a subsititue or the real word, I will always be more concerned about the intent behind it and the feelings of those directly addressed.
I guess swearing is vaguely similar - if the word didn't need to be said, I guess a substitute isn't needed either. If the word needs removed, we're creative people who can express ourselves better in that case than just having our crassness masked.
I guess swearing is vaguely similar - if the word didn't need to be said, I guess a substitute isn't needed either. If the word needs removed, we're creative people who can express ourselves better in that case than just having our crassness masked.
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Sophia
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I don't understand, really, because it's obvious what word you wanted to say. How are you not swearing? The sentiment is the same, you even started to say the same word. I'm not talking about "feeling free to swear anyone to anyone at anytime." I doubt if you'd even say the "proxy words" to people you didn't truly wish to offend.cowsmanaut wrote:well, there are those points when you start with a nice long FFFFFFFFFFFFF which ends in -udge because you've noticed you were about to swear. why bother? why not just feel free to swear anywhere to anyone at anytime? why even make an effort to restrain yourself... ?
I guess I don't understand how it's respectful. As I said before, everyone knows what word you meant. What difference does it make whether you really say it or whether you use a euphemism? Eventually the euphemism becomes a strong word itself simply because everyone knows what you meant:cowsmanaut wrote:In most cases using a "proxy word" is a statement of two things. One is the expression of anger or greif you wished to display, but the second is a respect for others by the use of that word as opposed to the more hash version. After all there is no other reason than respect to use a "proxy word".. So I hardly see what's wrong with it, and in fact I see that as right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism# ... eadmill.22
Precisely.beowuuf wrote:if the word didn't need to be said, I guess a substitute isn't needed either.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFreedomkaramell116 wrote:What is being gained by saying it ?
Or at least, that's what is lost if you can't say it anymore. Which is fine for me, I think you have to give up a little of your freedom to make a community. Otherwise, everybody hurts. Sometimes.
Last edited by Zyx on Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gambit37
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Cows, are you going to reply to my last PM? Because you have posted many times on the forum today yet have failed to reply to my personal message and I don't feel I can make any further progress on this issue until you do.
Last edited by Gambit37 on Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Paul Stevens
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Paul Stevens
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Euphemisms are handy things to have.
"I have to go to the 'Powder Room".
In my mind a lot better than saying
" <insert various locker-room sentences> ".
They have stood the test of time. Of course
we know what they really mean. I have no
idea why they don't sound the same. But
they make a big difference in how I view
the person saying them.
I vote to continue their use.
edit----i wonder if euphemisms are a bit
like a swim suit. Everyone knows what I
look like under the suit but I will continue
to wear the suit, thank you.
"I have to go to the 'Powder Room".
In my mind a lot better than saying
" <insert various locker-room sentences> ".
They have stood the test of time. Of course
we know what they really mean. I have no
idea why they don't sound the same. But
they make a big difference in how I view
the person saying them.
I vote to continue their use.
edit----i wonder if euphemisms are a bit
like a swim suit. Everyone knows what I
look like under the suit but I will continue
to wear the suit, thank you.
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Paul Stevens
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MasterWuuf
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Gambit37
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The forum content is blocked from search engines, so that is NOT the case here. And we could easily impose a minimum age if we chose by enabling COPPA registrations.karamell116 wrote:Google ! Anyone of any age CAN have access to the content.
That's ONE definition. There are others: "A person authorized to examine books, films, or other material and to remove or suppress what is considered morally, politically, or otherwise objectionable."karamell116 wrote:SecondThe Collins dictionnary gives this definition of the verb "to censor" :
"If someone in authority censors letters or media, they officially examine them and cut out any information that is regarded as secret"
Under the circumstances, the act of censorship has been acted out on these forums quietly and secretly that goes against the spirit of what we were doing here and goes against rules we all originally agreed. I am still waiting to hear the justification for this. If it's not censorship, what is it?
It's not about feeling threatened when a naughty word is replaced; it what the censorship represents in a broader scope. Lunever knows what I'm talking about, few others seem to understand or even care. I've detailed my argument for this on the moderators forum and it has not been answered.karamell116 wrote:Do you guys REALLY feel threatened when the f* word is replaced or even dismissed ?
How about we have the chance to listen to you instead of hearing you out ?
No of course not, and I uphold the view that exceptionally bad language should not be fed to minors. I've said as much elsewhere. Yet I will argue to the death anyone's right to say it among adults if they choose. My right to free speech is greater than your right not to be offended,karamell116 wrote:ThirdKids have already heard it. I'm a language teacher and I've noticed that people rarely need a lesson on how to curse in a foreign language. Does this mean we want to be remembered as the one forum that taught the bad word to someone ?
He already said he felt like it would not be fulfilling his responsibilities if he left.karamell116 wrote:Fourth Cow leaving = cow giving up his responsibilities towards the forum. What if by leaving he was actually showing how much he cares for this forum and how deeply disturbing some swear words can be in his duties to maintain a forum of a high standard ? What if by leaving the forum he would be making you think on whether or not this matter (which admittedly went out of hand) is relevant to thegood functioning forum ?
Well, that's the real issue isn't it? Several of us here are Admins. We share the same rank and work to the same standard. At least, I thought we did. It turns out someone wasn't and was doing things to their own agenda. That's simply not on and it still has not been addressed in all of this. That is what I'm so pissed about.karamell116 wrote:FifthYou all admit that this forum is great because there's not so many cursing words... Why ? Self-restraint and second examination by the administrators. We all agreed to the second part when registrering. So make it your rule ! If you're not happy with it, try on another forum see if the grass is greener there.
You talk about the "good functioning of the forum" but that's only possible if everyone is working to the same agreed rules and standards.
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karamell116
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Happy you answered to my question Gambit
My mistake on Google, it appears the forum cannot be reached through google. Or at least the matter at hand could not.
As for censorship, even with this definition, it does not fit. Your personal opinion has NOT been modified, but an unnecessary adjective to it. If you want to get mad at something, at least get mad at something worth it.
Which brings me to this. I find it great you have the luxury to call on freedom of speech for the f* word. I guess it's part of being raised in a democracy. People stand up and raise protestation boards for stupid things. In other countries, they know what censorship is and freedom of speech. Oh, and they do know what it is, when it's not. Which obviously you don't.
Freedom of speech goes indeed above my feeling offended. But certainly not over the respect you owe to other audiences. Being an admin, you might want to be a better example in that case.
I am well aware of Cow saying he felt like he would leave his responsibilities behind. But frankly did you have to hammer it a second time ("failing your responsibilities") to ensure Cow would feel REALLY guilty ? I don't think so.
And oh, why did you apologize then ? If you're so right ?
As for the good functionning, how about you acknowledge that the editing of post considered unappropriate without any notice of any kind was part of the contract we all signed when we registered ? you didn't receive the memo ? You clicked ok while watching TV ?...
Are you "pissed about" it because it happened or because it happened to you (since you're an admin) ? Admin people are safe from having their post edited ? How fair is that ?
You said you did it in a "deliberate way". It's written text, you think it over and over and that's why when something unappropriate is seen, it has to be removed by someone else, since the original author was unable to perform it before clicking "submit".
There is no reason to warn the someone we edit his post of. We're not writing a book, it won't be published by an editor, so take it easy. He should have known this word would be a problem, and if he doesn't, why bother explaining him ??
I very much disagree with Lunever and you on this idea.
(non appropriate data removed by husband, so take it up with him)
Ps : if you think I'm shouting behind the word, sorry, it's not the case
As for censorship, even with this definition, it does not fit. Your personal opinion has NOT been modified, but an unnecessary adjective to it. If you want to get mad at something, at least get mad at something worth it.
Which brings me to this. I find it great you have the luxury to call on freedom of speech for the f* word. I guess it's part of being raised in a democracy. People stand up and raise protestation boards for stupid things. In other countries, they know what censorship is and freedom of speech. Oh, and they do know what it is, when it's not. Which obviously you don't.
Freedom of speech goes indeed above my feeling offended. But certainly not over the respect you owe to other audiences. Being an admin, you might want to be a better example in that case.
I am well aware of Cow saying he felt like he would leave his responsibilities behind. But frankly did you have to hammer it a second time ("failing your responsibilities") to ensure Cow would feel REALLY guilty ? I don't think so.
And oh, why did you apologize then ? If you're so right ?
As for the good functionning, how about you acknowledge that the editing of post considered unappropriate without any notice of any kind was part of the contract we all signed when we registered ? you didn't receive the memo ? You clicked ok while watching TV ?...
Are you "pissed about" it because it happened or because it happened to you (since you're an admin) ? Admin people are safe from having their post edited ? How fair is that ?
You said you did it in a "deliberate way". It's written text, you think it over and over and that's why when something unappropriate is seen, it has to be removed by someone else, since the original author was unable to perform it before clicking "submit".
There is no reason to warn the someone we edit his post of. We're not writing a book, it won't be published by an editor, so take it easy. He should have known this word would be a problem, and if he doesn't, why bother explaining him ??
I very much disagree with Lunever and you on this idea.
(non appropriate data removed by husband, so take it up with him)
Ps : if you think I'm shouting behind the word, sorry, it's not the case
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Gambit37
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Under the circumstances, I am not going to respond to anything further here until Cows has had the courtesy to respond to my PM of two days ago -- despite being so apoplectic with anger that I could happily throw myself out of the window. You have absolutely no idea what you have just done, @karamell116.
I respectfully ask you to refrain from adding anything further until this issue has been resolved amicably by the parties it concerns, in particular I ask you to respect PRIVATE conversations had by two people in PRIVATE messages and to refrain from raising these unrelated issues on the public forum.
If you would like to discuss the matter further, please do so PRIVATELY.
I have locked this topic for now because it's just going round in circles. It can be re-opened once personal matters have been settled.
So like recently I will suppose this thread to be locked, even it is not locked. So after this post, I wont add anything further.
Karamell: Though Sophia isn't very diplomatic, she has a point there. You're not helping. On contrary to Adam you don't know any of us, neither from years of writing nor from personally meeting. Of course you are entitled an oppinion about the issue, like everyone else too. But actually you aren't really trying to speak with anyone of us in sense that can be called communication. You just want to take a stand against what you perceive to be Adam's opponents. But we aren't his opponents, we are as repeatedly pointed out his friends. So please don't ursurp a co-admin position here and cease adding further fuel to the fire. Please let Matt and Adam sort it out privately. They've gotten along for about 8 years now so there is hope that they can get along another 8 years. Both are admins, both have or should have the same rights, no one should control the other, so if they can agree that Matt's offer to do more self-restraint is a basis and Cows doesn't have to be the one person doing censoring but can have the same result by PMing Matt instead of overruling him, if they could agree on this it'd be fine, if not, it'd be a shame, but at least it'd be their personal shame then. Don't get me wrong, you are welcome to participate in this forum like everyone else is too, but if the one and only contribution you are giving is bossing around people you don't respect the least bit and making doors between long-standing friends become even more closed instead of trying to help moderate a solution that is acceptable for both, please refrain from it and trust that Adam is a bright person who can think this through for himself.
Karamell: Though Sophia isn't very diplomatic, she has a point there. You're not helping. On contrary to Adam you don't know any of us, neither from years of writing nor from personally meeting. Of course you are entitled an oppinion about the issue, like everyone else too. But actually you aren't really trying to speak with anyone of us in sense that can be called communication. You just want to take a stand against what you perceive to be Adam's opponents. But we aren't his opponents, we are as repeatedly pointed out his friends. So please don't ursurp a co-admin position here and cease adding further fuel to the fire. Please let Matt and Adam sort it out privately. They've gotten along for about 8 years now so there is hope that they can get along another 8 years. Both are admins, both have or should have the same rights, no one should control the other, so if they can agree that Matt's offer to do more self-restraint is a basis and Cows doesn't have to be the one person doing censoring but can have the same result by PMing Matt instead of overruling him, if they could agree on this it'd be fine, if not, it'd be a shame, but at least it'd be their personal shame then. Don't get me wrong, you are welcome to participate in this forum like everyone else is too, but if the one and only contribution you are giving is bossing around people you don't respect the least bit and making doors between long-standing friends become even more closed instead of trying to help moderate a solution that is acceptable for both, please refrain from it and trust that Adam is a bright person who can think this through for himself.
Parting is all we know from Heaven, and all we need of hell.