Legend of Grimrock

[Beastman666]

I consider "Escape From Dragon Mountain" (made by same guys) as a finished engine, not a simple experiment. The level is entirely playable.
Something also that makes me trust in Grimrock : the iOs port.

Na, wasn't a shot at Almost Human...Just hope that my hope is not hopeless :rolleyes

[Gambit37]

@Beastman: I think the project is in good hands. Stop worrying!

[PetriH]

Will this be the game I'm hoping for since the times of DM, EOB, LOL and Stonekeep? Or will it just be another half-finished experiement? Eagerly awaiting Grimlock.

Well, we are working on this full steam at least 8 hours a day and 5 days a week, so there's good chances that it will be much more than just another half-finished experiment

[PetriH]

The blog has just been updated with new stuff! Check out this new monster concept by our talented Juho:
http://www.grimrock.net/2011/08/10/hot- ... uggardian/

Any ideas for a nice ice/cold based monster?

[Crash.]

Greetings,

Is there a plan to release a level editor so that people can create custom dungeons? Alternatively, do you plan expansions/additional dungeons as DLC once the main game has been released?

As far as an ice monster goes, I'll have to do some research into what has already been done, but from what I remember many games that feature either an ice golem/troll/elemental that is fairly humanoid albeit hulking, or an ice version of some existing animal, insect, or arachnid. This results in a somewhat dull experience. I would suggest something non-humanoid that is an original creature with narrow features, long spindly appendages, with icicles as teeth and claws. In general, what I would like to see in any RPG are monsters that are creative and scary (there is a thread about this) but most games seem to deliver giant rats and the like. I always enjoyed the most bizarre ideas in the D&D monster manuals.

Maybe something like the Poltergeist hall monster could be a source of inspiration.



Cheers

[PetriH]

Is there a plan to release a level editor so that people can create custom dungeons? Alternatively, do you plan expansions/additional dungeons as DLC once the main game has been released?

Level editor: a game like this deserves a good level editor but we are fully occupied with the game at the moment. So it's not going to happen at least immediately after lauch but we would really like to do it at some point.

New dungeons and expansions: Definitely yes if there's demand for them and the initial launch is successful enough to keep us going.

And thank you for the ideas, keep 'em coming!

[Bit]

Just do a little dance each morning for having artists in the team...

[Crash.]

Just do a little dance each morning for having artists in the team...

I find the artwork, model designs, and animation that I've seen so far to be exceptional, and frankly superior to what is in many multi-million dollar titles.

[Bit]

I have a little hope that this team can prove that it is still possible to create exceptional software without having to starve.
After all they also need a lot of good luck. Quality doesn't guarantee anything anymore - for that there are too much idiots outside.

[Crash.]

Other ideas for an ice/cold based monster:

Something inspired by a mantis such as this thing from "the mist":



This McFarlane figure is pretty cool for a humanoid beast:



Okay, I'm not serious about this one, but had to share it:



Cheers

[beowuuf]

Fun creatures! And scary too!

[Selur]

Woooow.. the game looks very good!

[PetriH]

Just do a little dance each morning for having artists in the team...

Hehehe, that's funny because I have started to take dancing lessons recently I'm not even kidding.

Blog has been updated again, check out new screenshots! Oh, oh, and first ever game play video is coming tomorrow! Can't wait to see everybody's reaction...
http://www.grimrock.net/2011/08/23/new- ... interface/

[PetriH]

Other ideas for an ice/cold based monster

Thanks for those cool monster concepts, Crash! The evil snowman looks wicked Let's see what our artists think...

[Gambit37]

Funnily enough I tried using images of McFarlane figures for some RTC monsters. I always thought the Snowman would make a great foe
They do some awesome dragons too....

Grimrock is looking awesome by the way. I love the lighter interface. I really can't wait for this

[linflas]

New interface looks great !
I'm a bit surprised by the magic scroll. I guess Sancsaron is able to cast a poison cloud with it but there are *runes* on it that seem clickable.
Does that mean that we *must* find scrolls to use magic and click on runes to activate spells ? or is it just a way to learn spells and so that means there's another interface for casting spells ?

And err... shall we fight evil gastropods as well ?

About the iPad interface, it would be interesting to be able to switch arrows position : left or right.

[PetriH]

New interface looks great !
I'm a bit surprised by the magic scroll. I guess Sancsaron is able to cast a poison cloud with it but there are *runes* on it that seem clickable.
Does that mean that we *must* find scrolls to use magic and click on runes to activate spells ? or is it just a way to learn spells and so that means there's another interface for casting spells ?

Our super secret magic system is going to be revealed very soon... Hint: there are three components you have to have in order to cast spells in LoG. One of them is the scroll. If you look closely at various screenshots you might be able to find the other two

btw. scroll graphics are still unfinished and therefore a bit misleading (sorry about that).

And err... shall we fight evil gastropods as well ?

Yes, another secret revealed!!!

About the iPad interface, it would be interesting to be able to switch arrows position : left or right.

Yep, that's actually in the plans.

[Crash.]

Thanks for those cool monster concepts, Crash! The evil snowman looks wicked Let's see what our artists think...

Well hopefully you guys have all kinds of scary and inventive creatures in mind, and just need to choose which ones to include. I'm hoping for the weird and terrifying, and to seeing monsters I've never seen before.

I do have an unrelated question... will there be music or a music system? It has been my experience that no game ever has enough music, so the best implementation I have seen was with Oblivion, where it was possible to add to the included music, and insert your own songs into respective directories for different areas or contexts. The same was possible with Fallout3, although this was broken somewhat with FalloutNV. I would be pleased of more games would provide a directory or number of context directories where compatible music files could be copied and played randomly by the game.

I have to say that this game is just looking better and better; the screenshots, lighting, modeling, and animation are beautiful. My brother and I can't wait to stay up all night playing this game, just like the good old days - only now it will be on a 60 inch plasma screen instead of a 13inch CRT

Thanks!

[PetriH]

Woot! The first gameplay video is out!

http://www.grimrock.net/2011/08/24/firs ... lay-video/

[linflas]

I try to find something that is not perfect in that video, and obviously, that's impossible. Everything is astonishing.

[Jan]

Indeed, it is fantastic. Except... poor snail! Snails shouldn't be enemies!

[PetriH]

I try to find something that is not perfect in that video, and obviously, that's impossible. Everything is astonishing.

Wow, thanks man. That's really nice of you to say. Although myself I can see many kinks that we still need to fix...

[PetriH]

Indeed, it is fantastic. Except... poor snail! Snails shouldn't be enemies!

Yeah, I know. It's cruel, but SO ARE THEY!! And besides they are very tasty

[linflas]

as a french, i eat snails and frogs and yes ! they are soooo tasty

[oh_brother]

Wow. That looks fantastic! You managed to maintain the DM-feel, but make it look far more modern at the same time.

Really looking forward to this.

[Crash.]

Interesting Runecaster interface layout - can the runes be selected using the keyboard numberpad? I also have a control suggestion. Is it possible to add a single key command for the lead/active character to "take all" for the items that are on the current square? Finally, I seem to recall that one of the parts of DM style games that I always found tedious was using missile weapons, such that I had to spend way too much time picking up arrows so I would prefer melee weapons and magic. I always thought it would be an interesting idea to implement a certain number of "magic arrows" in the game, that return to the quiver automatically after doing their damage.

Thanks very much for sharing the gameplay video; it looks brilliant. I'm sold on this game.

Cheers

[cowsmanaut]

funny, I know all DM fans will be very happy with this game, however one feature makes me wonder about those not familiar with DM.. and it's one argued on this forum frequently when talking about 3D DM. Step based movement. Some here want to hold it faithful to DM, others like myself don't see the need for it in a 3D engine.

Other than a respect to the original DM there is no real reason to have it. Some claim that you need it for puzzles, but it's just not true. Several first person games have had large floor zones that activated things, so that people couldn't just step around them(like you can in oblivion, but that's as intended)... and without a jump feature you can't jump over them either(though even if you could jump, it would still depend how far you could jump). It's interesting how some of the extreme fans hold on to a desire to maintain what was only present due to the limitation of technology. That's proven in DM Nexus since it's their 3D engine and there's no step based movement.

Honestly, I think in order to appeal to a larger market(ie non DM fans), it's one thing that may need to go. I just doesn't make sense.

Anyway, otherwise to me it's looking great

[Crash.]

I think there is room for both types of games.

The one thing that I notice with modern 3D first person RPGs like Oblivion or Fallout3 is a complete lack of puzzles or interesting dungeon mechanics. There are few if any keys, buttons, switches, teleporters, hidden walls, pits, riddles, and basically all of the things that when used in combination, made games like DM interesting and challenging. The in game hand that could be used separately from movement was also a design element that added to the sense of immersion. There could be many more additions to this list. I haven't found a single dungeon in a modern game that was interesting or memorable, in spite of having a full 3D environment, gigantic game worlds, and all of the technology (and sometimes multi-million dollar budgets) to make amazing dungeons. It is kind of like certain movie sequels where now that the budget and technology are almost unlimited, no one has bothered to be creative. Perhaps it isn't a matter of whether these games are stepwise, but for whatever the reason, the dungeons are boring. Please tell me if there is a good dungeon game out there that I may be missing.

I thought that maybe it was just that I was being nostalgic, remembering old gameplay experiences being better than they really were, but then I went back and played a game like EOB 1&2 or Lands of Lore that I had never experienced back in the day, and quickly discovered that the old games had something that the new ones have forgotten. Few new games take all of the things from before and build on them. Even with the dated graphics and other such limitations, these games proved to be more enjoyable than many of the modern games that I tried but never got interested in enough to finish.

I don't think that stepwise movement or all right angles are mandatory, but I don't think these characteristics detract, particularly in the case of a game like this where the steps and creatures are fully animated. Even with this old school convention, I expect this game to be much more immersive and enjoyable than any of the top view, click to move, current D&D games, the side scrolling 2D indie RPGs, and more so than even some of my favorites such as Oblivion and Fallout, due to my expectation that it will be necessary to think and problem solve, and that greater creativity will go into the level design and game mechanics. Also, many modern games are trying so hard to be movies, focusing on useless cinematics, verbose voicework, and tedious cut scenes, that all of this takes away from actual game design and game play. I am quite glad to see a dungeon RPG focused on play rather than trying to be a lame CGI movie. Watching a movie is a passive experience, and not something that I want to mix with gaming.

I would imagine that LoG as it has been developed cannot now be easily changed from a stepwise game to a full free-motion 3D game without extensive redesign. Maybe there can be a sequel or spin-off that loses the stepping, but I for one would be happy to play many more games in this old school style, and I never would have stopped if for not the fact that people stopped making them. For years my friends and family have wished for what we are seeing in LoG - classic gameplay with modern technology.

That said, I wouldn't object if someone were to re-make Dungeon Master Nexus as a PC game with a mouse-look interface, or if the owners or designers of the original Dungeon Master came out of the woodwork with a full motion DM sequel. I would be pleased to play both styles of game.

Cheers

[PetriH]

funny, I know all DM fans will be very happy with this game, however one feature makes me wonder about those not familiar with DM.. and it's one argued on this forum frequently when talking about 3D DM. Step based movement. Some here want to hold it faithful to DM, others like myself don't see the need for it in a 3D engine.

Other than a respect to the original DM there is no real reason to have it. Some claim that you need it for puzzles, but it's just not true. Several first person games have had large floor zones that activated things, so that people couldn't just step around them(like you can in oblivion, but that's as intended)... and without a jump feature you can't jump over them either(though even if you could jump, it would still depend how far you could jump). It's interesting how some of the extreme fans hold on to a desire to maintain what was only present due to the limitation of technology. That's proven in DM Nexus since it's their 3D engine and there's no step based movement.

Honestly, I think in order to appeal to a larger market(ie non DM fans), it's one thing that may need to go. I just doesn't make sense.

Anyway, otherwise to me it's looking great

Hi Cows and thanks for the feedback!

This is something we have been thinking a lot at the start of the project. And we've done experiments both ways. The bottom line is: 3D movement does not add any value to the game if the environments are still tile based. On the contrary it makes movement just harder. If the world was built in full 3D (bridges, platforms at different height, tunnels going freely in any direction, tunnels in the floor/ceiling etc.) then it makes sense to have free movement. But full 3D would increase development costs tremendously. Also one aspect is that tile based movement works basically on every possible platform, especially on tablets & smart phones it's a perfect match.

We are aware that it makes the game possibly less appealing for younger gamers but this is a risk we're willing to take.

Cheers, Petri

EDIT: 3D does not prevent making puzzles but it takes time off the project that could have been used to make puzzles for the game. That's probably one of the reasons why e.g. Oblivion does not have any. The other reason is that games are made for an average gamer who's attention span is probably a bit different from a typical DM player

[Babe Bridou]

re: step based movement
(@Cowsmanaut, two people faster than me due to internet shutoff )

You are wrong about the progress of technology. You can't make a game of the dimension of DM without a tile based engine. It's pretty much the only good way to solve the exponential issues that rise as soon as you have a continuous space of possible positions & orientations. Puzzles are much, much faster & cheaper to make and end up of much higher quality with much higher potential complexity if you can guarantee exact positioning of actors after each events without the use of expensive (and generally annoying) cinematics to reposition players & monsters.

Of course you can make it a seamless 3D world, but you won't be able to handle all the actors' possible choices and decisions if the vast majority of them are not meaningful ("moving 10cm to the right and looking left by 1.3°" is an example of a non-meaningful action taken by an actor in a free 3d world). Tile based world pick an infinity of different positions and reduce them to exactly single coordinates vector. It makes all position changes much, much more meaningful, leading to much, much better and much faster AI. Just have a look at the depth that allows a tiled engine in games such as Dwarf Fortress. Heck, compare the AI of a giggler to the AI of... well... damn? Is there any thief AI in any "seamless" 3D game, ever, if you except cinematics? I don't think so! I might be wrong though. Come on, prove me wrong

Seamless movement - that's a whole different deal.
If you give up on tile-based world engine & complexity, then you give up on tile based movements, that's a given. Now the reverse isn't especially true. You can keep seamless movement for the player, but behind the scenes you keep assuming the player is just "inside tile XYZ". It's workable. I actually thought about it and tried it for a while for my own project. The main problem is with the controls.

1) there is no mouse on the tablet/phone. It's a pain to look around by swiping/scrolling/using a thumb gui "button". I tried. it really is not fun.

2) you can't go as fast/slow as you'd like with wsad. In general you have two modes, running and walking, and nobody ever walks. You know what's not fun? walking down the same corridor, taking those turns that you know by heart/muscle memory because you've been through this place forever, and still take the same minute to traverse the place (Corpse running to Blackrock Mountain, anyone? ). How about making it 10 seconds if you're skilled, fast, and know the place by heart? More fun? Yes. One of the true reasons why Dungeon Master was fun? Yes. Possible with seamless movements? No.

The real question is this one:

in order to appeal to a larger market(ie non DM fans), it's one thing that may need to go.

What if we want to share the fun we got from DM to the new generation?