Race to Fusion

[PaulH]

Very, very good! I haven't seen the run yet, but look forward to it! I remember spending a long time setting the original. At least I still have the single character record

[Antman]

At least I still have the single character record

Yes both resurrected and reincarnated too! Not sure those records will ever be beaten, even with four characters I think I make it to the end of the worms level around the same time you do with just one! Although since I've been practicing a lot recently I should be in good playing form... maybe I'll give it go.

I think you could beat the four champion time too, I actually thought of a way to shave some more time off involving the Zokathra... had to be after I made the recording of course

[PaulH]

This is really interesting stuff, itching to see the video! I remember I got very lucky with the worms and saved a big chunk of time. I think my reasoning for taking Stamm was his stamina drains curiously slowly and that I'd save on sleep. That said, he needed training for the mana so is offset by that.

I have to say I'd wondered for many years whether my record would be broken - I know it could, and if anyone was going to do it, it would be you. When I got the email in my inbox this morning about a reply to the this thread I instantly knew what it would be about! Definitely made me smile . I might have a quick run through later just to jog my memory and see if I can spot what you've done.

It's amazing to think I was 25 when I did that run. Now I'm 42, I'm hoping the reactions are still there lol.

Very well done.

[PaulH]

Well. Talk about rusty! About as sharp as a falchion. Amazing how much you forget, like the key sequences right at the start!

I think I have a rather elegant solution to the worms... Time to investigate.

[Antman]

Paul uploaded the recording here http://dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin/Competi ... M28m23s.7z.

Yes I watched your recording many, many times, only having to kill one pair of worms was very lucky.

I had forgotten a huge amount, which gold keys to get, which doors were choppable, the secret gold key in the worms level, which iron keys to get, the combination for the switch puzzle, the teleporter shortcut in the same level, ful bomb/freeze life box locations, that you need the ruby key, which skeleton keys to get and locks to open, more and more... Probably why it took over 60 attempts in the last couple of weeks to get a successful recording! I'm much older too now, surprising how the muscle memory and reaction speed can come back with some practice though although I come back to play CSB and Conflux every so often.

Might have thought of another time saving manoeuvre on the scorpion level, might try it out.

[PaulH]

Just watched it through, a cunning mix of skill and tactics. And I have to say, quite a bit of bad luck with monster positions, but I'll come back to that.

My thoughts before I pressed play were that there were definite improvements that could be made on my time with simple moving efficiency - more sidesteps and less hitting walls and you deftly navigated the dungeon. Certainly with more grace than me! My other thought was what the team you picked might be, and you picked 3 out of 4 that I had guessed (I guessed Sonja rather than Halk. I envisaged that Leyla would be in for the rope and for the worms and, even though you were only partially successful with it, it's a well thought out plan that I never thought of at the time. In the end though, it's all about Stamm

The three rooms picked on level two (HOC being zero) I think are the fastest, but I've been toying with the idea of 'Room of the gem' if I can kill the rock pile quick enough. You get the mirror of dawn so saves a few moves later.

I was intrigued to see the rock pile on level 3 move so quick by simply going up and down stairs as if it reset it's movement timer. I think I got lucky though and got past it, but I'll be stealing this for next time hehe. Getting thrust on the rapier is a must I feel.

Killing off the characters and then resurrection at the end is a beautiful move and plays to the characters' strengths when needed - especially when the boots of speed are gotten. I think I might be able to invoke something similar, but at a different part in the game - we'll see

So the monsters, you definitely had some bad luck with those gigglers and then the demons at the end. I recall having issues with screamers - in the end I think this is what ultimately makes or breaks a game; the tactics we have employed are more predictable and shave small (but not insignificant) amounts off. And those new tactics I have seen have certainly done that!

SO can it be beaten? Absolutely. Will it be beaten - yes. I think you will beat it again and drop more off it. I remember doing about four or five runs in quick succession and shaved more off each time. Though I should have kept going when on that hot streak lol. Will I have another go? Maybe . Could be a project if the weather turns bad but as before, I need to sharpen those skills!

As before, many congratulations for a stunning game!

[jayrshaw]

Hi Guys,

This is probably a dumb question, but how do you see the playthrough using the files at http://dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin/Competi ... M28m23s.7z? I unzipped the files, and the only executable file in the mix just appeared to be the general application for playing the game. Is the "playfile.log" file the one that contains the actual playthrough data? If so, how do you use this file to view the actual playthrough?


--Jay

[PaulH]

DUNGEON>Misc>Playback

[jayrshaw]

Thanks, Paul - I got it to work. Hopefully I'll get a chance to watch through the playthrough sometime tomorrow.


--Jay

[PaulH]

No worries!

[jayrshaw]

One more question - is there a way to pause the playthrough once it has started? I just discovered that to fully grasp what is going on in the game, I have to watch the playthrough at "molasses" speed or so. I don't know exactly how long the playthrough takes at that speed, but I'm not sure if I can easily sit through the entire thing without pausing at least once or twice...


--Jay

[PaulH]

Press Escape, it will pause it.

It's not a long recording - unfortunately for me lol.

[jayrshaw]

Thanks again, Paul! By the way, I just tried "glacial" speed and it seems like doing that essentially pauses the game, too...


--Jay

[Paul Stevens]

The other thing that can be done.....I can make it into a movie (.mp4)
and then you can watch it with a viewer that allows forward/backward
skipping and single frame display. Let me know if that would be useful.

[MasterWuuf]

I somehow missed this thread. Race to Fusion. I guess I will investigate a bit, when time allows.

And by all means, Paul, a movie would be nice. Thank you for offering to do this.

Paul Stevens said: "The other thing that can be done.....I can make it into a movie (.mp4)
and then you can watch it with a viewer that allows forward/backward
skipping and single frame display. Let me know if that would be useful."

[Paul Stevens]

It is 1:35 AM. I'll try to remember to do this tomorrow. If you don't hear from
me in 36 hours, complain!

[Antman]

"Press Escape, it will pause it." that is incredibly useful and I'm not sure how I did not know of its existence!

"deftly navigated the dungeon" until I got the boots of speed and lost control many times in the long corridors of level 6!

I actually hadn't put too much thought into the fourth character, I did try some others like Mophus for more stamina potions and Hawk for better balance but ended up settling with Halk for pure fighting ability for the beholders on level 9. Sonja is an interesting choice, I should take a look over the characters again. But yes Stamm really does seem to be an endurance powerhouse, the main fighter and responsible for throwing everything but still often manages better stamina than the others.

Ah you must mean 'Chambers of the Guardian' and that is a very very intriguing idea. Can avoid the 'Creature Cavern', which can be a bit annoying and also skip all of level 5 and get the third iron key on the level below instead, that would certainly save some time. The rock pile has pretty low health...

"I was intrigued to see the rock pile on level 3 move so quick by simply going up and down stairs as if it reset it's movement timer." Yes the movement timer does seem to be reset and it is very handy for making slow monsters speed up, also monsters will run away if you do it long enough. Stairs are actually 'safe zones', even if you're boxed in, as long as you're spinning nothing can touch you.

I think the resurrecting can actually be skipped in hindsight, and some time saved. Maybe we had the same idea here

With the monsters there always seems to be one or two or more who are in bad places, sometimes fatally, I actually thought it was pretty lucky overall. The worms could definitely be improved, I actually was waiting a small amount of time before trying the teleporter/rope again but I think that is unnecessary. Having to kill two groups then lure the third out was unlucky. I've had at least one game where the first worms were telefragged on the first attempt and I was able to dodge the rest, very rare though. With the demons at the at the end I could have taken more risks but I've learned to be cautious, they can be a huge pain and my success rate there isn't very good. Especially now that the bug (present in the original code thanks to a compiler bug) with monster fireballs has been fixed in the latest versions of CSBWin. Both groups of two demons were holding conference with Chaos when I arrived unfortunately so I thought it best to lure them away.

Thanks for the analysis and thoughts! I wouldn't be too surprised if you find yourself having a go, especially if you have ideas up your sleeve, which it seems like you do! I think you know the dungeon a lot better than me overall. I only started trying when I thought using an altar of vi and thought 'what if...', then it kept bothering me haha.

@MasterWuff: Welcome! Now you're here, I hope to see your record submission soon I've been enjoying reading your journey through Conflux.

[jayrshaw]

Well, I watched the entire playthrough this morning (it took around 3 hours at "molasses" speed). You guys are definitely way beyond my skill level to manage playthroughs like this.

It's kind of funny that the game was designed in such a way that you can complete it without actually fighting the vast majority of enemies in the dungeon. I may be wrong, but it looked like the part where the gigglers kept stealing your torches was the section of the game where you lost the most time (I guess it was good that you took so many torches along with you). The funniest part of the playthrough was probably the point near the end of the game where you killed Gothmog by repeatedly ramming him into a wall.


--Jay

[Paul Stevens]

See:
http://dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin/Competi ... 23M23S.mp4

It was encoded at 320x200 15 FPS to save space.
I play it with MPC-HC. The space bar starts and stops play.
The left/right arrows skip forward backward 10 seconds.
Control arrows advance one frame back/forward.

https://www.videohelp.com/software/Medi ... ome-Cinema

[Antman]

It's kind of funny that the game was designed in such a way that you can complete it without actually fighting the vast majority of enemies in the dungeon.

Yes I think only the "prisoner" skeleton across the pit on level 3 (which triggers the worms appearing), the beholders on level 9 (or the skeletons if you go through the other door) to get a key of b and the animated armour on level 11 for the emerald key actually have to be killed. Have you seen the CSB speed runs? I think they're even more surprising with how much can be skipped (if you've played CSB ).

I may be wrong, but it looked like the part where the gigglers kept stealing your torches was the section of the game where you lost the most time (I guess it was good that you took so many torches along with you).

Yes those gigglers are super annoying, I actually took all the torches just for them. In an earlier game they cleaned me out and got away so I was left trying to finish in the dark.

The funniest part of the playthrough was probably the point near the end of the game where you killed Gothmog by repeatedly ramming him into a wall.

Not so funny for Gothmog, lol. The speed from the boots of speed really help for the ending so having one character is a must.

[jayrshaw]

Yeah, I figured that you killed Gothmog off after creating the Zokathra so you could get the speed bonus from the Boots of Speed. I haven't played CSB yet mainly because I prefer playing games on a TV with a controller; I've only ever played the SNES version of Dungeon Master!


--Jay

[PaulH]

Thanks for the analysis and thoughts! I wouldn't be too surprised if you find yourself having a go, especially if you have ideas up your sleeve, which it seems like you do! I think you know the dungeon a lot better than me overall. I only started trying when I thought using an altar of vi and thought 'what if...', then it kept bothering me haha.

I think I'll have a few relaxed games experimenting, and see where that leads. Every so often I'll have a run through, so now have a good excuse! Exploring characters is one area - so many I have never taken. Might be some surprises lurking.

[PaulH]

I managed a modest solo run of 33.8 mins! Tried the Chambers of the Guardian - I'm still undecided on this route. Possibly is slightly quicker if you get some good blows on the rockpile.

Was fun to do it again, I need to try and decide on speed settings as seems to run quick on my new computer but might just be imagining it.

Paul, what does the "player clock" option do?

[jayrshaw]

You guys really are speed demons! I had to view Antman's playthrough at "molasses" speed to even have a decent handle of what was generally going on. It took me around 3 hours to watch the playthrough, so you guys must be playing at roughly about six times the speed I was viewing the game at if you are finishing in around half an hour - wow!!


--Jay

[PaulH]

Practice and patience

Have you seen Antman's CSB speed runs?

[jayrshaw]

No - I haven't actually even tried CSB myself, yet...


--Jay

[Antman]

I managed a modest solo run of 33.8 mins!

Nice, that didn't take long! I haven't started trying any solo runs, but I think I'll give it a go.

I need to try and decide on speed settings as seems to run quick on my new computer but might just be imagining it.

I felt it was faster on my PC with Extra Ticks enabled than it used to be on my old PC, so I played with extra ticks off. If you enter the dungeon and hold down turn for a full minute, how many ticks do you get? With extra ticks on I get ~900, but ~250 if just standing still. With extra ticks off I get ~250 for both.

[Antman]

I was playing around with the annotation feature in CSBWin and ended up annotating my game. I actually had a look a source code and hacked in some changes so the annotations are displayed in game instead of with a dialog box. The code built surprisingly easily (although only Release, Debug always crashed) and more surprisingly successfully played back my game so it must be very close to the code used to build CSBWin version 17.6.

The annotations are pretty silly but it was fun to make, maybe I've been in lock down too long. You can see the result here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_s_WSX ... sp=sharing. Probably best watched without 'extra ticks' on as it may go too fast otherwise.

[jayrshaw]

Hey Antman,

My wife and I tried watching the annotated playthrough and thought the commentary was really funny! Unfortunately, CSBWin kept crashing at some point during the middle of Floor 1 of the dungeon (i.e., the first floor with actual monsters). We were watching the playthrough at "normal" speed, so we'll try at a slower speed and see if that prevents CSBWin from crashing...


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Unfortunately, changing the game speed doesn't seem to prevent the game from crashing on our computer. We've tried watching the playthrough about 5-6 times now, and it always crashes at some point during the middle of Floor 1 (usually roughly around the point where you pick up the chest with food in it or shortly before that point).


--Jay