DMuting CSB

[PicturesInTheDark]

Downloaded it. Looks great. Something on Mirc though: tried it today, looks very confusing. Any short guide how to find use this thing?

Regards, PitD

[PicturesInTheDark]

Ok, since nobody seems to be in @MIRC some things I found with CSBuild. By the way, even if it has been said before: Great work, Paul, it is much appreciated.

1) I guess I see what you mean with the level (adding tiles) - but I cannot find any sense in this. If I click "new" (dungeon), I have to manually add levels and tiles for all levels - wouldn't it be more practical if the maximum dungeon size (16 deep, 32x32 I think) would be given, i.e. you just loaded Beowuufs "blank dungeon" as a standard? I imagine most it's easier to decrease the dungeon size (even if that is not necessary for a dungeon to work) if you want to than you must increase it every time.

2) What was the "database full" message you removed? When did it come up? What happens now? Just no message, but still full?

3) Thank you for the GUI teleporter selection, I think that is a real improvement although not in your basic line of interest.

4) What does "broken" mean for clothing? E.g. if an armet were "broken", what effects would that have in the game?

5) Does "important" for an item mean,it is vital for the solution and it's place may not be swapped randomly in a CSB dungeon?

6) "Place pit or teleporter on wall cell" was meant as "Make empty square and place pit/teleporter" in one go if the suqare was full before - did you mean the same?

7) Checks: If you could include a kind of "processing" during checks that would be nice (for example it took my machine some seconds to find a lot of errors on the "objects" for "prison" - which by the way, did not help me at all, I would not know what to do with line after line saying "orphaned object database 0"), but more important: if there were no errors, a short message would be necessary: "Check ok" would do nicely.) The "floor decoration" check would also be better in a list as to have a better overview.

8) When viewing object counts, there are three lines with "??????" - what are these?

9) On "Global Info", what is the difference between "Party X/Y" and "Starting X/Y" ?

10) What purpose was on your mind for that encrpytion thing ? ;)

Regards, PitD

[Paul Stevens]

Very nice questions!

===================================
1) I have to manually add levels and tiles

I'll add a 'Maximize Dungeon Size' on the 'Global
Info' dialog. But remember that you cannot make
the dungeon smaller.
===================================
2) What was the "database full" message

A leftover from debugging and the old 1024 limit.
Now it starts to warn you at 7500 and refuses
at 8000.
====================================
3) GUI Teleporter target.

You are welcome...I wanted it, too. We still need
the same for actuators.
====================================
4) "broken" mean for clothing

I have no idea what it is used for.
====================================
5) "important" for an item mean?

In the old days the 1024 limit often caused objects
to be discarded. "Important" items were never
discarded. You would not want your Key of B to
be discarded, would you? All items in the original
dungeon (mini.dat) were marked as important.
=====================================
6)"Place pit or teleporter on wall cell"

Yes, we agree onj the meaning.
======================================
7) include a kind of "processing" during checks

That is a good idea.
======================================
8)object counts, there are three lines with "??????"

These should say "unused" or simply be removed.
======================================
9)"Party X/Y" versus "Starting X/Y" ?

In a dungeon, "starting" is used. In a savegame
the "party" is used. Dungeons MUST start on level 0.
======================================
10) purpose for that encrpytion thing

The standard purpose. To hide the information from
prying eyes.

[PicturesInTheDark]

To hide a dungeon design from prying eyes? ;)

That sounds kind of interesting...

Anyway, thanks for the answers, I'll come up with more questions after looking into CSBuild in Detail... Just one more here: what did you mean, the dungeon cannot be made smaller? Why is that?

Regards, PitD

[Paul Stevens]

What did you mean, the dungeon cannot be made smaller? Why is that?

I mean that I am not going to implement "Delete Row",
"Delete Column", or "Delete Level".
=====================================
Lot of errors on the "objects" for "prison" - which by the way, did not help me at all,

There is not much I can do to help. Those objects were
left in the database but they were nowhere referenced.
So I cannot tell you where they used to be or are
supposed to be. I can only say that they should not be.
The database numbers can be associated with object
types by looking at the "View Object Counts". For example,
I think that database 5 is "Weapons".
=====================================
PAul

[Paul Stevens]

CSBuild Version 0.757 is at
webpages.charter.net/pstevens1

Fixed:
1) Saving as little-endian destroyed the file - PitD
2) Editing Door Open/closed/smashed - Christophe
3) Update status bar when doing page-up/down-Christophe
4) Second Iron Door now named 'Ra' - Christophe

Implemented:
5) Place teleporter on Wall Cell - PitD
6) Place Pit on Wall Cell - PitD
7) Allow Pit above Wall Cell w/warning - PitD
8) Auto-detect little-endian files - Christophe
9) Progress bar during "Check Objects" - PitD
10) Set Dungeon to Maximum Size - PitD
11) ReDo (Control-Y) - Paul
12) Object counts for DB11,2,13 now say "Unused" - PitD
13) Move "Help" menu to far right - PitD
14) Move Global and Local edit to "Edit" menu - PitD
15) Added "Check Pits and Stairs" option - PAul

My list is empty.....awaiting reports of problems.
I probably broke some things. There were rather
large changes in some of my classes.

PAul

[PicturesInTheDark]

Hey Paul,

good morning to you (and Christophe), there seem to be a lot of changes going on here, if you keep up your pace I'm going to have my hands full with just adapting the screenshots ;)

I'm glad we're seeing continuous improvements here, although we seem to be a three-guys-force only (nobody else interested here in an easy-to-use editor that covers most of the bases for you ?), we are definitely advancing. Three new versions in just a few days with a lot of new functions. (BTW: The chesting in monsters really is nice. Is a chesting of monsters in chests thinkable ??)

I will check out the changes and let you know. As proposed by you, Paul, and rain I will post my questions and requests here, but I'll keep sending the manual to you personally until it's done. Christophe, since you're actively following here, if you let me know your email I'll also mail the updates of the documentation to you if you want to. Choose between .doc and .pdf.

Have a good day,

regards, PitD

[PicturesInTheDark]

Looks great!

Some minor things I found:

* I would provide an additional text to the "level up/down" arrows on the task menu, since new, save and open also have those. ("View next higher/ lower level")

* Since you automized the endian reading, the error messages coming before he tries to read little endian (like "too many levels, database appears damaged") should go. I suggest reading big-endian by default, then reading little-endian -and give your message you do so- and only after trying that unsuccessfully give out error messages. Otherwise no real use if he could load it with the second try anyway. Is that too much trouble in coding ?

* I still think the "active timers" should also go to the "edit" menu if you really can edit them. If it's only a term of speaking, never mind this suggestion.

* Not sure about the "maximize dungeon size". My idea was that you can start editing a new dungeon with one click. Now you still have to go to menu | global info | maximize. hmm. what effects does maximize have on game engines/readers? can dmute still read those games? does Dm for PC have problems reading those big dungeons? "Undo" does not work here, right?

* If I place a pit on a wall cell, he warns me and then changes nothing. It works for the teleporter, though.

* Still upholding a claim on message after checks saying it was successful (for all checks separately, like you did with the pits and stairways), could be the same message in all cases like "check successful" or "no monster/object.... errors found"). Also still think, the decoration errors should be in a list like all the others and not pop up one-by-one as message boxes. Loss of overview.

* Additional texts for the tyle types to the right (drawing menu). Although most would know, it does not hurt and should quickly be done ("false wall, empty square, wall, ...)

Regards, PitD

P.S.: What do you feel is missing for a V1.0 ?

[Paul Stevens]

1) text to the "level up/down" arrows on the task menu

Good Idea.
=======================================
2) messages coming before he tries to read little endian
(like "too many levels, database appears damaged")
should go.

I think this is too much work for right now. Perhaps
if you ask again in a month or so when there are no
more important item to address.
=======================================
3) "active timers" should also go to the "edit" menu if
you really can edit them

You cannot edit them yet. Do you want to edit them?
If you want to edit them I guess I can implement that
and move it to the 'Edit' menu. Otherwise I will change
the title to 'View'.
=======================================
4) new dungeon with one click. Now you still have to
go to menu | global info | maximize

How many times in your life do you have to start a new
dungeon? Can you tolerate those three exta clicks?
I would rather leave it as it is.
=======================================
5) can dmute still read those games?

Nobody can read games written by CSBuild, I believe.
=======================================
6) "Undo" does not work here, right? (after maximize)

"UnDo", "ReDo" only apply to changes made to
cells on the map. Other things will require a manual
"Save"/"Open" operation. I save ten backups just
for that reason. Do lots of "Saves" when you are
changing the shape of the dungeon.
=======================================
7) pit on a wall cell, he warns me and then changes nothing

Please be more specific.....it works for me. I still will not
allow you to put a pit above a stairs, for example. What
are you trying to do?
=======================================
8) Still upholding a claim on message after checks saying
it was successful

Which ones do you want changed?
=======================================
9) decoration errors should be in a list

Please send me a dungeon with these errors so I can
test it.
=======================================
10) Additional texts for the tyle types to the right
(drawing menu)

Perhaps I can draw them vertically and put a text
beside each one. I'll try.

[Paul Stevens]

1) text to the "level up/down" arrows on the task menu

Good Idea.
=======================================
2) messages coming before he tries to read little endian
(like "too many levels, database appears damaged")
should go.

I think this is too much work for right now. Perhaps
if you ask again in a month or so when there are no
more important item to address.
=======================================
3) "active timers" should also go to the "edit" menu if
you really can edit them

You cannot edit them yet. Do you want to edit them?
If you want to edit them I guess I can implement that
and move it to the 'Edit' menu. Otherwise I will change
the title to 'View'.
=======================================
4) new dungeon with one click. Now you still have to
go to menu | global info | maximize

How many times in your life do you have to start a new
dungeon? Can you tolerate those three exta clicks?
=======================================
5) can dmute still read those games?

Nobody can read games written by CSBuild, I believe.
=======================================
6) "Undo" does not work here, right? (after maximize)

"UnDo", "ReDo" only apply to changes made to
cells on the map. Other things will require a manual
"Save"/"Open" operation. I save ten backups just
for that reason. Do lots of "Saves" when you are
changing the shape of the dungeon.
=======================================
7) pit on a wall cell, he warns me and then changes nothing

Please be more specific.....it works for me. I still will not
allow you to put a pit above a stairs, for example. What
are you trying to do?
=======================================
8) Still upholding a claim on message after checks saying
it was successful

Which ones do you want changed?
=======================================
9) decoration errors should be in a list

Please send me a dungeon with these errors so I can
test it.
=======================================
10) Additional texts for the tyle types to the right
(drawing menu)

Perhaps I can draw them vertically and put a text
beside each one. I'll try.
=======================================
11) What do you feel is missing for a V1.0 ?

Every day you tell me about a dozen things that need
fixing or changed. So Version 1.0 seems a bit premature.

[PicturesInTheDark]

Active timers: So far I don't even have an idea what they are or do. So I'd suggest changing the title of the box to "active timers" and leave them in the view menu.

New dungeon: It's ease of use. No more no less. But since you call the shots, it's fine if you say no.

Reading CSBuild: If no special changes are done by CSBuild, why should they not be read by other dungeon readers? Or does CSBuild write in a different way in general?

Pit on a wall cell: Strange, it works when I try it at work, will try again at home and give you feedback if the problem persists.

Target of actuators/objects/monsters/decorations/pits and stairs should all have a "processing" part and if done successfully without errors a message saying so ("No errors", "yahoo" or "Check o.k.").

Decorations: Unlike the other checks, if CSBuild finds errors here, he does not produce a list, but single message boxes one after another. That is inconsistent and less easy to use. I'd prefer a list here as well.

V1.0 was just curiosity since you must have a picture in mind what you still want in there, no more. On what grounds do you raise your major numbers anyway? Besides, from the list I normally get back half rejected or proven wrong ;)

Regards, PitD

[Sphenx]

PitD: if you make documentation, I should recommend you the less specific format. Html would have been very good for this; between .doc and .pdf, I'll certainly prefer to see a .pdf (which means Portable Document Format..).

PAul: "Nobody can read games written by CSBuild, I believe."
I would say it is not a real good thing. I did not stopped you with your extra databases and DSA, but I would hope that you can still convert your internal format into a DM-standard one. It is at least what I do with DMbuilder (It is .. obvious why ..). If you don't make it, there will be a problem to switch from an editor from another. DMute can't read dynamically the dm-format, and it has not been updated, we can't do anything for that, but our both editors are still in development, that would be an annoying oddness to have incompatible formats.
You know I planned to read your special format when it has only extra databases, but I don't know with DSA, or any new modification you may have done, it may be a too complicated task.

On the graphical part, there is no problem and this is clear: Paul doesn't need any pictures to make a dungeon, while I prefer to choose items by their images (is that a sort of mind-laziness?). This is how we oriented the editors development.

[Paul Stevens]

A timer is what gets created when you step on a
pressure pad or flip a switch or drink Ku Potion or
almost anything that happens in the dungeon.

CSBuild and CSBwin have 'Extended Features' that
the other editors and runtime engines cannot read.
That is the way it is and that is the way it will be
unless the authors of those other tools update their
programs. I am happy to help those authors
understand. The DSA definititions are very easy to
skip over. In fact, I have tried to make it easy to
ignore any of the 'Extended Features'. I have also
tried to make the extensions in a way that when they
are enhanced the programs that simple skip over them
are not affected.

I added these extended features to address very real
limitations in the original. The 1024 Limit had obviously
constrained the CSB game to less than it might have
been. And nobody ever managed to answer my
challenge of creating a puzzle that required four
switches to be pressed in a particular sequence
(A simple thing with DSAs).

I will add "Processing" and "No Problem Found" to
each and every "Check" menu item.

Can you send me a design with "Decoration" errors
so that I can test this code?

I raise my version numbers by 0.001. Just 243 versions
until we get to 1.000. ;-)

[PicturesInTheDark]

Hi Amber & Paul,

first of all thank you both for the very specific explanations. I think it is valuable that we have different approaches in design and programming - it's better to have multiple ones going on in different directions than only one.

Regarding the html: I'm going along the lines of Paul here: I prefer pdf (doc or rtf can be provided for those who wish to since I'll write it in word but then create a pdf out of it), but pdf is the choice made. Html is not my idea of a proper manual, but if someone wants to convert it, I'll hand over the source when I'm done. No problem. I won't do it.

It sure would be nice if DMBuild could read CSBuild and vice versa (even if "extended" functions would be skipped, but if that is possible to keep up seems unlikely to me. However, I think it should be possible to "read" a dungeon that does not use extended functions from the start with any of the programs, don't you think? If that does not work, we would at least need a specification, what version was used for the build so that upwards compatibility from that version on would be guaranteed.

About the versions: thanks Paul ;) I was hoping for a more... hmm planned approach, but I see what you mean. The question was posed because I was trying to figure out myself what a basically completed editor/builder should be able to deliver at least (besides being stable and mostly error-free, of course). But I guess the answer is fair.

I'll send you a decorations-error-game right away (poison again ;))

Regards, PitD

[Sphenx]

Well done PitD, the "e" is at the right place. Hello Amber ;)

[Paul Stevens]

CSBuild 0.758 is at webpages.charter.net/pstevens1

fixes:
Very Bad error in UnDo/ReDo ( a Debug/Release problem)

implements:
status bar text for toolbar tools - PitD
status bar text for menu items - PitD
Identify selected Tile Tool - Compromise with PitD
"Check | Decorations" --> List - PitD

[PicturesInTheDark]

Sorry Sphenx! Was not concentrating properly it seems...

Paul: you have a very productive streak at the moment - thank you, I'll look into it as soon as I can. Update on the doc might take some days, it's a busy week. I'll keep you informed.

Regards, PitD

[beowuuf]

Ages ago in posts someone asked about chesting monsters...big no...

Paul mentioned the four switches dungeon challenge...damn, i started that, hit a problem, then never got around to debugging it...must dig it out again and look (i have too many discarded dungeons like that it's not funny!)

[Sphenx]

Chesting monsters is something that will probably crash the run-time engine. First, this can make a chest with a negative weigth i.e. a real heavy weight, then the player takes ages to move.
The image of the monster in the chest will be a complete noise, so not very nice to see.
The last point is the most funny (but totally ruined by the others): when monster is in a chest, take it as an item, place it on the floor, move one square, and the monster pops up like magic.

Another thing to do is to chest monsters in monsters, or pile up several monsters together. This can have a nice effect too, but I think it may also crash the engine, so be careful when you do such non-standard things.

[beowuuf]

monsters in monsters is fine, as long as it is one at a time....no negative effects that i've observed : )

[Sphenx]

For the several monsters in one pile, I think there are negative effects, I've made one in my DMBuild demo dungeon, and it actually creates some bugs when monsters die (floating spells bug, and eventually game crash).

[Paul Stevens]

I put CSBuild version 0.759 at
webpages.charter.net/pstevens1

Fixes:
Check mark on menu item "View | Target Lines" - PitD
Changed "Edit Timers" to "View Timers" - PitD

Added:
List of targets on right side of map screen - PAul
Notice of completion of "Check" menu options - PitD

============================
I have no outstanding problem/question reports. If I
forgot your favorite problem or question, please resubmit
it. Until then I am going to do something more
relaxing.....building a cabinet with some poplar I
bought today.

PAul

[rain`]

Paul, any chance that you can make a "random dungeon" feature like diablo?

Of course, having random puzzles could be hard, but someone like yourself surely has enough time and initiative to make a random dungeon generator!

hEHhehEhehEhehEhEhe, im just kidding!

=]

-rain`

[PicturesInTheDark]

Paul even denies simple lists of all error messages ;)

I think the break is well earned, we (at least I) have seen a lot fixes, additions and changes in the last weeks... I'm working on the documentation and it's growing... hope this is going to help some of the builders out there...

Regards, PitD

[Paul Stevens]

You wnat a 'machine-generated' random maze and puzzle????

Wait three days and I will demonstrate.

[Paul Stevens]

CSBuild version 0.760 is at:
webpages.charter.net/pstevens1

Nothing very important but releasing an executable
is very simple. And now my pile of 3x5 cards
is once again empty.
===========================
--Allow only one monster record on a cell.
--Better helpful hints on text editor dialog.
--Initialize teleporter target browser. It pointed to (0,0).
--Note on level info dialog about limited decorations, etc.

[beowuuf]

Random dungeon generation has been mentioned before, and really can't see a way to implement it - good dungeons are all about the game balance and feel.
Another demo level that was lying around on my HD forgotten was a simple exercise in showing how to have 'random' generation of the dungeon - different paths opening up and random object placement

If i ever find it and get back to it i will upload it, though I'm sure people with imagination can come up with better (especially using CSBuilder's DSA setup)

[rain`]

the random dungeon thing was a joke... heheh =]

then again maybe its just 4:20 gettin to ya.

[beowuuf]

Lol, no, its been mentioned as a serious question before!
Either a) as a dungeon hack idea, where you actually have a fully playable random dungeon, or b) as an editor feature ,where you have the levels laid out for you already so you can populate them with tricks and traps

And 4:20 always gets to me...freaky time with its darn even numbers : )

[Paul Stevens]

CSBuild version 0.761 is at:
webpages.charter.net/pstevens1

Fixes:
--Stairs. You can now edit direction. And "Check" validates direction.
--Monster. Correctly edits postions. "Check" validates them, too.

Questions:
--PitD. How do I put a space in 'Wall Text'?
The dialog now has a comment that a space is generated
by typing a '@'.