Dungeon Master Forum

Download the actual newest version of the dungeon here

I have updated my old PCDM dungeon with CSBWin and cleaned up a few bugs. I have also created a new graphics.dat with new weapons/items/etc a few new monsters and a lot of altered stats for objects. It is only a small project that I hope to expand and create a complete new dungeon for, but the dungeon and this file work very well together. Wish I could draw better...
Problem is I have nowhere to upload it. Is the old encyclopaedia still active for uploading dungeons? With the graphics file it is larger than normal

Thanks

Paul

Not long 'til adept now

Christophe can arrange to upload the graphics file seperately if you contact him, temporarily I can host the file for you until it's on the fourm, just mail it to:
<me> at dmjump dot net

Done!

Download it at http://www.dmjump.net/towers.zip

I have uploaded the dungeon to the encyclopaedia.

You two are stars. Thanks

Great, thanks Paul. I'll have a peek at it on the weekend...

Regards, PitD

BTW, there is no version history yet (old & new release both have no version numbers), and you did not include the txt file from the first version - on purpose? With which version of CSBwin did you test the dungeon - 9.6v4?

Something I would generally be very much in favour for: Including a list of all files + dates the version has been tested/built with, so at all times, even years later, players can find out easily which files to use to be able to play a game.

Regards, PitD

I shall have a look through the dark corners of my hard drive and produce a version history - I agree it nees doing. Although I can't say exactly what changes I made... it would give too much away!

The text file... oops. It is with the old DMPC version but again needs updating as the mighty dragons no longer roam this land.

I have posted a small text document outlining the original story and a brief version history (on the encyclopaedia page). I have not kept a full record of all changes, as a lot of amendments were from a day to day basis (and on a whim) and were not documented.

Hi Paul,

I played through the new version on the weekend and have made some comments, a few errors found that have not been in the last review although some of them already existed - do you want them in the Encyclopedia as a new review or privately via email? One of them is critical - a dead end, the rest more or less a matter of style improvement. I can provide them by tomorrow.

Regards, PitD

HiPitD,

You finished that quickly maybe I should make it harder....
Very interested to hear your comments, esp on that dead end.
You can post them here if you like, as long as you don't slate everything!

OK, I admit, I didn't play test all the way through, very naughty. Staring at the same dungeon for hours on end can get boring. If you would like to implement a few changes yourself with CSBuild, then be my guest!

Harder? Gulp!

I've just started this with a reincarnated party (perhaps this was a bad move) and found the early bits really tough. With my fighters unable to hit a barn door with a banjo and my wizards only dreaming of a fireball I was only able to defeat the first 2 mummies thanks to a lot of running away.

Then I wandered in to the next bit and got cornered by 4 mummies who smegged the party.

Of course this doesn't put me off at all, I will to complete this dungeon, and Conflux II, eventually

We seem to have both ends of the spectrum here: PitD who finishes it in 2 days and you who gets killed by the 1st monsters!!! What's a designer to do?! Only joking

I have always been a fan of dungeons that start with modest characters that have to be trained. I believe that this tests the skills and flexibilty of the player more. And tests skills that maybe are rarely seen in other dungeons when you start of relatively easily or with good characters and items. You also need to find the best combo of number of team members, ressurected vs reincarnated (BTW, it was meant to be played with DM rules, or its going to be very hard!!!) and tactics against what the dungeon pits against you and be willing to change what you normally do. Well this is true for all dungeons I suppose. But I have altered the stats of many items so old tactics may not work as well.

I found that two characters, reincarnated with DM rules was easiest, with patience and a little training. Once you get out of the initial bit and it opens up a bit I think it eases off!

SPOILER!!!














Train at the Vison of Chaos, the level deepness is high....

Hmm. No need to make it any harder Paul... Since I already once played through the dungeon from the very start searching all the corners and levels I improved my party the second time wanting to check only if the dungeon worked smoothly - so I did certainly not have the same challenge as Des this time. Also, since I already knew most of the tricks and traps (except some changes) it was a lot easier to make up my tactics and adjust up front.

Ok. Here are the remarks - stripped of as much hints as possible, if you want more details I'll email you.










So: ****SPOILER WARNING***









Random observations, some of them already posted before in my review at the encyclopedia and now reviewd/checked, some new. Since they are mainly for PaulH, the intention was to be cryptic sometimes.

*****
Checking for errors, double-checking errors from V1.0:

Playing Gothmog ? OK

Pressure pad on 1 (11,23) - door does not. Intended, OK

Door at 1(21,18) only opens when you are either (I don't know which) craftsman wizard or are able to launch an On fireball (strength 3). Food all right this time, door still hard but possible after training. OK

Scroll in the "Reading room". OK (Found out this time )

Door at 08(17/35) has an iron plate at the lower part that should not be there - graphical glitch ? - STILL THERE

Blocking false wall on 07(51,32) has no trigger to ever open as far as I could see. OK (Trick wall now)

If you start (as I did) with the green tower first, you have no vorpal blade [...] OK - you can get one before now.

In the teleporter room as far as I can see, I cannot reach 4(13,15) or 4(14,15), therefore my way is blocked [...] OK

At 4(33,14) and 4(32,10) there are fountains that do not show on the maps in CSBuild. Either these are random wall decorations or I don't understand why they appear there. Still there, probably random decoration. OK

The pressure pad at 3(19,12) should probably open the door at 3(18,14). If not, this is a death trap. My mistake, did not think simple enough. OK

"Zero Displacement" Mended - OK.

Teleporter at 3(13,25) Hint still hard but enough. OK.

Pit at 3(19,09) Very hard but now has a vital hint. OK.

The scroll at 3(07,23) Between the first row and the others there is an empty line in the scroll - on purpose? Solved it this time. No idea what the result should help me or if it's just another tip on the hat. Oh well. OK.

Shortcut back after concluding the three towers Thanks for that one - OK.

The start of the final part having to step on the pressure plate at 10(10,25)... very hard. Still very hard, but doable. OK

Berzerker/dragon fang room around 10(34,18) a little too tough. Same as above - OK.

Shortcut at the end of the corridor of fire. Shortcut is nice and since there's a fountain now at the beginning of level 11, not even necessary. Maybe you should demand specific items for the two eyes at the very end of level 10 - nearly too easy at that stage. OK.

"Zo Ful Ra" text in level 11. Now changed - OK.

Master key at 11(37,46) Not even necessary any more now, but nice for food hunting. OK.

Very last pit at 2(22,15) at "Time is of the essence" It opens with only 1/6 second delay- to short to ever get through. Make it 13 like all the others and it should be fine.

"Cast your influence cast your might" riddle !!!Unfortunately the door at 8(33,16) is resistant to Ful Ir and therefore produces a dead end.!!!

General Comments:
Dungeon is much more straightforward now, you got rid of confusing areas and problems with advancing pretty well.

Graphical changes were fun - since I know how my own painting attempts work compliments on your achievements, especially the rives, mummies and hellhounds look very nice, screamers were great fun when seeing them first. Zytax' remind me of H.P.Lovecraft's Nightsgaunts... good stuff. Golems feet are pretty small from my angle, dragon did not impress me too much ;o) Munchers... interesting.

Experience point levels too small for me. Dungeon is pretty hard at some points and taking 6 as the highest makes it very tough in nearly all sections. Maybe hide an extra level with a training area or some "fighting round course" that has no target except gaining some levels by making the XP multiplier 10 or more. You can put it somewhere not easily found and see it as a bonus area for those players searching meticulously.

Potential dungeon and/or CSBwin/CSBuild problems:

When checking the game near the end I got "Not implemented" messages with CSBuild that had not been there before - there seemed to be no timer problems, however I received two interesting active timer messages saying "70 adjust light by -8". No idea what they mean. I also found, that some objects (clone type 24 and 48) abviously get created during the game (had not been there when I initially checked the dungeon), same goes for some orphaned texts, food, monsters, weapons and potions - all of which CSBuild discovered when I checked my save game.

Probably something for Paul Stevens.

Regards, PitD

i started playing towers of chaos II yesterday : just rules, i even play it at work actually
just a question : where is gothmog ? haven't found him in the HOC

Hi PitD

Many thanks for your comments, I think you now know the dungeon better than me!!!

The CSBWin 'not implemented' and 'cloned item' messages are a mystery to me too. BTW, what is an 'orphaned item'? (!)

The monsters... that dragon took me the longest too LOL. Its wings take up to much space, so I think I am going to redraw it. The golems feet do need sorting out. Did you notice any difference with the weapon damage? I am currently redrawing walls and it is looking good.

The dead end... it is solvable! The door was not meant to be fireballed! Zo spells? Then chuck something!


Level deepness... yes I agree I think if I release another version, I will improve this, or put in a training area. I have only used a fraction of CSBWins potential

Again, many thanks

Paul

Hi Linflas!

Like the pic!

The HOC layout is the same, so Gothmog is a couple of squares behind Hissssa. Through an illusionary wall.

Playing it at work eh? Don't blame me if you get fired!

Good luck,

Paul

I just downloaded Tower of Chaos from dmweb.

It has errors to start with. Clones, orphans, and
strange actuators. They all appear to be very easy
to fix. Why were they left in the game?

Another thing we need is an ability to identify the
version of a game. I will add that to the 'Edit|Global Info'
menu and provide a menu item to display the version
in CSBwin.

To answer the 'orphan' question earlier, orphans are items that are not placed directly in the dungeon, and that are not now linked to it either
Monster/chest contents that remain when the carrier is deleted, texts that have their scrolls deleted...
That is my understanding, anyway, and I don't think there is anythign else counted as an orphan, is there?

Game versions: Do what Zyx does, and have it as a floor item at the start?

Game version......Floor text at start. Yes. That is a great idea.
Nevertheless, I think I will add an official 'version' text that
can contain upper/lower case, digits, etc. that can be
referenced at any time during game play. The author can
put all sorts of stuff in there.....Author information, version
number, introduction, story line, hints if he likes.

I converted the dungeon originally from DMPC. Until I learn how to use your editor 100% and the nomenclature associated with its functions, I was wary about changing too much. Now that I am coming to grips with it all, then yes I can removed the cloned texts etc. It doesn't appear to alter the function of the game.

What do you mean by 'strange actuators'? Maybe my take on linking actuators for effects in DMute, and its conversion to CSBWin may make things look a little odd

The actuator at 00(09,01) targets the 'South' position
of a teleporter square. There can be no effect of
targeting any position other than North. The runtime
engine will change it to North anyway (FTL code, not mine).

The Pressure Pad [1d1] at 03(07,05) targets position
03(06,04). There is nothing there! What is the pressure
pad for?

Neither of these things is currently a problem. But it would
be nicer to have it be 'Clean'. Then, if the runtime engine
is modified to take advantage of these otherwise unused
cases, your dungeon will still work.

And I believe you are right about the clones and orphans
not being cause for concern in the playing of the game.
But can you prove it? It would be easier to fix than to prove
it won't cause problems.
And again, cleanliness is next to godliness. If you can
release a clean dungeon, why release a dirty one?

The actuator at the 1st part of the game 00,09,01... when I designed this dungeon, I took the original DMPC dungeon, deleted bits I didn't want and kept in bits that might be handy. I untouched this part of the dungeon at the beginning, so it is a problem inherent of the original DMPC V3.4 game that has come through in the conversion.

The other bit at 03,07,05... well this is obviously a blatant rip off off the the worm trap in the original. I believe that that wall used to contain a text, 'this is my prisoner, let him suffer'. I deleted the text, but not the actuator. I left it in incase I decide to put some more text in. Well its a good excuse...

Yes I agree, better to prevent a problem than to encourage one.

Can this version text be displayed the same as moves, etc i nthe zoom x 1 section?

Can this version text be displayed the same as moves, etc i nthe zoom x 1 section?

I had not consided that. My idea is that the text can be
of unlimited length. Write a book. Provide hints or
spoilers for all your puzzles. So, in general, it would not
fit in the sidebar of the x1 window. But I can put the first
part of it there.

What did you have in mind? A more glorious use for this text?

ah, i had no ideas other than 'there is a part that is being used anyway to show hidden info'
Your idea soudns much beter with expanded possibilities

Going back to my failed first attempt, I forgot about the DM Rules option.

It's set to off by default so my reincarnated characters had half stats. My stay in the area mentioned in the spoiler was very brief as the party copped some damage early on which exhausted most of Tiggy's mighty 12 hit points, so I did a runner.

I've just started a new game and things are looking much more promising.

A tough start is of course in the spirit of CSB. When I played this back in the summer (using CSB4Win), I did have a try with reincarnated characters. When this ended in tears I imported my well hard DM party who dispatched the worms in seconds with some huge fireballs. It felt like cheating!

Paul, there's an option you can tick in CSBuild that means the game starts with DM rules by default

I have released an updated graphics.dat which will work with this dungeon with some new walls/monsters/items and altered stats. Well, it will work with any CSBWin dungeon, but as I have changed some items things might get a bit weird!

It is very much an experiment: I ain't an artist, 16 colours is very limiting and interpreting the mapping of graphics from the dat file is hard. I eventually want to design a totally new custom dungeon with pretty much everything changed... I have too much time on my hands at the minute!

funny you should release that for ToC, i've just started playing this game in the last few hours...