Max Level at end?

[Dark Wing]

Hi,
great site I see there.

I have a simple question : never paid that much attention to "apprentice" or "journeyman" levels a while back when I played to DM, now I am wondering for those who ended the game, at which level you come at end?

Max level for Halk the Barbarian with his journeyman fighter level at start? Max level for Leyla Shadowseek in the Ninja class if you keep to use her as a ninja in the dungeon? (dunno how, she will probably earn some fighter levels over some more ninja levels in any cases)

Well maybie there's a place where there are uncountless monsters in the dungeon you fight over and over and they always come back, I don't remember if it's the case in that game, so the point of XP earned is moot anyway...well save being hungry or thirsty thereafter. I have seen this in the old Drakkhen game on Atari ST, I don't remember that in DM though...too young, er these very days.

In Chaos Strikes Back and Dungeon Master 2 the same?
Dungeon Master rocks.

[beowuuf]

Levels depend on what you do, not monsters etc (though it does provide a bonus to your gains) so even sittign in a darkened corner will gain you levels, eventually, without respawning monsters

The maximum maximum you can get is Archmaster. After a niormal game you can get expert in fighters easily, a little less with ninja depending how you play, and possibly a master level or two with the priests and wizards

Theoreticially anyone can push quite far - actually ,the halk journeyman thing is crippling him from higher l;evels, as he is losing three times the bonuses and starting champions can get to journeyman fighter quite quickly. Similarly ninja levels

I once trained up on the amiga DM, but didn't really get beyond archmaster qizards, PAL priests, ON fighters and lo master ninjas - then again, I know better ways now if i were to ever try it again, which i wouldn't : )

CSB is a faster game with less resources like food and water, uinless you know where to look - so about the same as DM on balance

DM 2 seems to give more rewards, so by the time i finished a normal game everythign but ninja levels was into the master side for almost everyone

[Dark Wing]

It looks that the fighter levels of Halk won't help that much indeed in the long run (but still helpful in the beginning), low levels easy to get anyway, but if I play the game once more if I have the time to do so (and end the game for once ), I will probably choose him anyway. 15 is max levels, no stamina/health advancement thereafter really? Also, at higher levels, when it's harder to reach a new level, I expect the fighters to not reach new levels as fast as the other classes, they can only do so by killing monsters. On the other hand, I can understand that you ended with a Archwizard! Mana for destruction, but also usable in safety, with some XP as reward.

[sucinum]

my usual levels with 1 4 char-party are:
fighter: front lo-master, rear expert
ninja: all adept
priest: front expert, rear lo-um master
wizard: front lo-master, rear lum-master
i train some minutes at the frist screamer, the screamer room after the worms and at the rat-training-room. for wizard/priest-levels, i usually follow the skeletton-stairs down to the dragon level and cast some spells there. that provides very nice exp in that stage of the game.

[beowuuf]

Fighters gain levels by swinging fighter weapons. Ninjas gain by using some weapons, but mostly punchign and throwing.
So, you could atatck thin air and gain points. Of course, you gain more for everything (spells, flipping a coin) when in combat.

Once you have reached archmaster, no further advancement. But each level takes double the experience. Differnet levels have a greater depth that multiplies your experience gain, but still - it takes ALOT of effort to even approach such levels.

[Dark Wing]

Well thanks for the tips and posts!

One thing I did not understood by reading through the DM Encyclopedia on the XP thing is the hidden skills. Do you need to reach level 4 in the 4 different hidden skills to reach a real level and then everything the same for the next level again? Or do you need to only practice one hidden skill to 4, and then jump a level, gaining the 3 other hidden skills (at level 4) you didn't practice? "Logically" it would be the first option, but it's a game so I am not too sure. If it's the first option though, what are the 4 different skills you need to practice (to level 4) to reach a level? For the ninja, it would be maybie kick/punch/hit, Climb, Stab, and shoot/throw? Please forget these 2 last sentences if it's the 2nd option - as then you only need to shoot with a bow for example to reach a level in the ninja class)
Also does a high dexterity allows to swing/hit/reload quicklier?

[Exodus]

Check out these bad boys... Tiggy and Gando, just the two of them, playing with 4x the monsters (ini-file settings in the game allows you to add more monsters at teh same location as the existing ones). You can really gain the levels!!




If anyone wants the save game let me know and I will post it here. Its the regular RTC 0.28 DM game

Ex!

[zoom]

hidden skills:
you got four main skills : fighter and so forth.
these main levels have sublevels independent from the main levels. If you gain exp. in a hidden skill, you also gain that experience in the main skill that is adequate to the hidden skill.
e.g. when you use the completed firestaff option invoke, you gain main wizard-skill experience. No hidden skill gets improved.
if you swing, you gain experience for swing hidden fighter-skill and for the main fighter-skilll. So if you gain enough experience with swinging to reach lets say fourth level, you should have also gained a fighter level at this point
(or before; the main skill gets all the experience it´s hidden skills have ).

now it is so that there are for each champion different starting levels for the hidden skills.
i think elija has priest hidden skill "scare monster, warcry, calm,.." level four but he is only priest level 3!!
I do not know what reincarnation does, but i think that these levels are somehow remembered. .. i recall a game where i got a new fighter attack option " melee" before the champion gained journeyman/craftsman?? rank in fighter.

[beowuuf]

huh, didn't I answer the hidden skills question a whie ago? hmm, the reset fairy been again or a poorly pressed submit button...

weapon optiosn are independant of your main level, so you don't get a level them get an option

you can see a hidden skill get boosted with the gem of ages - cast a potion to your maximum level with and without it - see the difference! but to visible skill has been touched....

[Exodus]

I noticed that when you grab the inquisitor, you don't get berzerk option unless you are an expert or better in the fighter category. I guess I should try other characters to see if they get this option before becoming expert fighters....

[purple1]

Many weapons and items have requirements for their abilities. Otherwise, a character in DM2 with no fighter ability could use the Vorax's Berserk attack for 100+ damage.

[Dark Wing]

hidden skills:
you got four main skills : fighter and so forth.
these main levels have sublevels independent from the main levels. If you gain exp. in a hidden skill, you also gain that experience in the main skill that is adequate to the hidden skill.
e.g. when you use the completed firestaff option invoke, you gain main wizard-skill experience. No hidden skill gets improved.
if you swing, you gain experience for swing hidden fighter-skill and for the main fighter-skilll. So if you gain enough experience with swinging to reach lets say fourth level, you should have also gained a fighter level at this point
(or before; the main skill gets all the experience it´s hidden skills have ).

well thanks for the info, makes sense, note that the Climb example for one of the 4 ninja hidden skills was really typed as an example...wouldn't work if it was the case, cause one would have to train in Climbing an reach 4 to this hidden skill in the 2nd option above just to reach the first ninja level... (and one would need a rope I think)
As for the dex thing I will check by myself, I have learnt here recently that the move speed of the group depends of the lower dex of the group.

now it is so that there are for each champion different starting levels for the hidden skills.
i think elija has priest hidden skill "scare monster, warcry, calm,.." level four but he is only priest level 3!!
I do not know what reincarnation does, but i think that these levels are somehow remembered. .. i recall a game where i got a new fighter attack option " melee" before the champion gained journeyman/craftsman?? rank in fighter.

I am not the guy who can respond of course, but I think that Sonja She Devil has probably some bonus for something with her Shoker, as well as Chani with her Moonstone.

[Dark Wing]

Exodus that's amazing, the little guys may be really dangerous.

[beowuuf]

the choker has no bonus, the moonstone does give a bonus, but i think chani has little somethign extra naturally - maybe a slight increase in luck or a hidden skill

[Lunever]

I never knew exactly how the hidden skill system has been working, but I suspected it to exist for years before this matter was brought up first here. It is one of the things I badly miss in RTC. George, would it be possible to implement that? (I'll do a threat in the RTC suggestions pointing here)

[Zyx]

http://dmweb.free.fr/DMSkills.htm#Actions
Here you'll get the list of hidden skills linked to the actions.

http://dmweb.free.fr/DMSpells.htm
And here, for the spells

[zoom]

I hope all of you can read it!
It´s a list of the actions linked to the hidden skills or main skills, taken off of the encyclopaedia; So not really my work here THe "only available by hacking" and "not implemented" i left out. Is everything correct? I am not sure about the cleave option of the Vorpal Blade, but i do not think that it is the same as fighter cleave.

FIGHTER

main skill: probably standing in front of or getting hit by monsters

hidden skill one: swing, slash, cleave, berserk
hidden skill two: jab, thrust
hidden skill three: bash, stun, chop, melee
hidden skill four: warcry (with or without facing a monster), parry, block

NINJA

main skill: maybe when using a NINJA action and missing a monster

hidden skill one: climb down (--> always works...)
hidden skill two: punch, kick, stab, hit (for instance with a Large Shield)
hidden skill three: throw
hidden skill four: shoot

WIZARD

main skill: fail to cast a WIZARD spell, ZO KATH RA; fuse, fluxcage, invoke

hidden skill one: FUL, FUL IR; fireball (Fury)
hidden skill two: ZO, OH IR RA, OH EW SAR, OH KATH RA; disrupt, lightning, light, dispell, maybe cleave (Vorpal Blade), too
hidden skill three: YA BRO ROS, DES EW, OH EW RA(not sure, but likely-->); window
hidden skill four: ZO VEN, DES VEN, OH VEN

PRIEST

main skill: fail to cast a PRIEST spell, ZO BRO RA

hidden skill one: flip coin (seriously: this one makes me laugh!!!)
hidden skill two: YA, VI, YA BRO DAIN, YA BRO NETA, FUL BRO KU, OH BRO ROS, VI BRO; heal
hidden skill three: blow horn(Horn of Fear), warcry(in front of monster), confuse, freeze life, calm, brandish
hidden skill four: YA BRO, FUL BRO NETA, YA IR, DES IR SAR; spellshield, fireshield

[Galn]

I played the original DM on the Amiga many many moons ago and before I went down a level out of the Hall of Champions I had already added a few levels of Ninja to all 4 of my characters. This new version takes a long time to even get to Neophyte, let alone Apprentice. By the time I completed the game all my characters were close to Archmaster in their main skill and just a few levels behind in other skills. Perhaps the Atari version has skill advancement a lot slower than the Amiga version.

[Florent]

Perhaps the Atari version has skill advancement a lot slower than the Amiga version.

Funny you mention this... I have had this feeling for a long time, having spent hours just watching friends play on their Atari (yep, just sat there and watched, that's how good the game is !), then playing it myself on my Amiga a few years later.

Here's another impression I had : when I started playing CSB on my PC with the Amiga emulator WinUAE, it felt as if levels came MUCH faster than on my real Amiga version.

Can anyone confirm or deny this ?

[sucinum]

in earlier versions you regenerated much slower while sleeping, slowing the process of training.

[RogerS]

While procrastinating finishing CSB with Gando (still got Dain left), I did test meynaf's dmcsb and found out that experience gain in the Atari version is indeed slower than the Amiga version.

https://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p= ... ost1630101

Wizard level gain from torch spells is about 60% slower than in the Amiga version, and ninja level gain from throwing is 4 times slower than in the Amiga version.

[ChristopheF]

I have checked in my ReDMCSB source code, and I cannot find any difference between Amiga/Atari ST versions regarding the way experience is computed.
Maybe CSBwin and dmcsb do not behave exactly like the original game. Can you reproduce your measurements with an actual Atari ST version (running in an emulator) ?
Or maybe I missed something in the source code

[RogerS]

I just installed the Hatari emulator and tested it with DM 1.1

It took 16 casts of Lo Ful to reach neophyte wizard, in line with what I found in CSBWin and dmcsb and around 60% slower than the Amiga version.

It took 72 club throws to reach neophyte ninja, the exact same number as CSBWin and dmcsb and exactly 4 times as slow as the Amiga version (18 throws required to reach neophyte ninja).

A user on the English Amiga Board reported something similar.
https://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p= ... ost1630126

[ChristopheF]

Congratulations RogerS!
You have found a new bug in the game affecting the Amiga 2.x versions (I have not checked any other versions yet). The Atari ST version has the correct behavior.

I have analyzed that issue in detail and reproduced tests similar to yours. I have only tested with throwing objects because there is no randomness in the amount of experience you gain in that particular case, unlike spell casting.

I confirm that the source code is identical for all versions of the game regarding the way experience gains are applied. However after compilation the actual behavior is not the same on all platforms.

The game stores the last time that a creature attacked the party in a signed long integer variable, which is initialized with a negative value of -200.
Each time a creature attacks the party, this variable is updated, always with with a positive value (time starts at 0 and always increases).
When applying experience, the code compares this variable with the current time. But the current time is an unsigned long integer variable. Different C compilers have different behaviors for such comparisons between signed and unsigned variables and this is the cause of the issue at hand.

The amount of experience you gain for any action is:
- divided by 2 if no creature attacked you in the last 150 ticks.
- multiplied by 2 if a creature attacked you in the last 25 ticks.

On Amiga 2.x versions (possibly others, but not Atari ST), the game always wrongly considers that you have been attacked by a creature less than 25 ticks ago, until you have actually been attacked by a creature at least once. When that occurs, the abnormal behavior ceases and experience is computed in the same way on Atari ST and Amiga. Until then, any experience you get is wrongly multiplied by 4 compared to the amount you should normally get.

Check for yourself by repeating you tests but with the following procedure:
- Start a new game on DM Amiga
- Choose your champions, but do not train them yet
- Go down to the level below the hall of champions, turn right, open the door and let the mummy attack your party at least once
- Go back to the hall of champions upstairs (this is important because each level has a different experience multiplier that also affects the amount of XP you get for your actions)
- Wait at least for 150 clock ticks (this is roughly aroud 25 seconds, but wait more to be extra sure)
- Train your champions. You will see that you get the same behavior as on the Atari ST versions

[RogerS]

Wow! I'm amazed that we were able to discover a new bug after 35 years

I can confirm that the bug is also present in Amiga version 3.6

I let the mummy attack me once, then backed out of there and closed the door and went upstairs and waited a bit, then went down to level 1 again and tested.

This time it took 19 or 20 casts of Lo Ful (a lot of them failed attempts) to reach neophyte wizard and 72 throws of a club to reach neophyte ninja.

[ChristopheF]

After checking, this bug is indeed present in all versions of the game engine except the Atari ST ones.

[Gambit37]

Amazing that these quirks are discovered after all this time!