Linear style (as DM)
Open-ended style (as CSB)
Logic puzzles
Find the item to progress puzzles (being prepared to visit every corner of the dungeon to find a key in the shape of a vexirk's thingy or whatever)
Movement/timing puzzles (basic ninja stuff)
Other puzzles (word/math/right item in the right place stuff)
Being required to use expert knowledge of DM physics in order to overcome obstacles (jumping through pits onto monsters to kill them etc.)
Having to use magic map a lot due to breathtaking quantity of invisible pits/fake walls/ability to zoom through the dungeon with gay abandon
Availability of food/water being/not being a significant issues
Plenty of opportunity to advance your characters at your own pace/pressed for time or places of safety
New monsters/familiar monsters
New items/wallsets etc.
I was initially going to do this as a poll, but, well, I changed my mind and did a list instead.
Y'see, I'm about halfway through making my RTC dungeon and things are going well, but I've been giving my thought to the style of the whole thing. I mean, there's a lot of difference between DM (which essentially tries to help you along and certainly enables you to progress through the dungeon quickly) and CSB (which tries to kill you, or at least make you wish you were dead). So far, I've used different styles for different bits of the dungeon, which is fine (the overall layout is fairly DM, with some of the more specific areas a bit more CSB). I've now come to the lower levels of the general layout (so essentially the DM bit) and am wondering which way to go next in terms of design. Thus the question: what do people like in their dungeons?
What do you like?
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Someone Else's Problem
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Paul Stevens
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The one thing that I most like is the ability to go slow and yet
make progress. So that I can "ratchet" the game forward. This
means I need a source of food and water (like the screamer
regeneration room in DM or the worm regeneration room in CSB's
basement). And it means that can clean out an area of the
dungeon and it will not refill itself with monsters while I am off
doing something else. These are not absolute rules but they
should be followed more-or-less so that the dungeon can get
easier over time. I don't like having to save and restart over
and over again in order to master each particular part in a
big hurry.
I like everything on your list. Even the linear/open style can
exist in different parts of the dungeon and at different scales.
I like ****LOTS**** of little puzzles thrown in to make life a
bit complicated. CSB has a lot of them. The worm regenerator
puzzle on the top floor where you have to remember to bring
a boulder along, for example. Easy to do but easy to forget.
An all of these "little" puzzles are not necessary to win the game
but they make things easier and many are quite impossible to
discover without the editor. So they seem to make the game
seem more random (What happened???? Last time I came
here this door did not open!!!) Even the simple "Surrender your
possessions" puzzle confounds many people for a long time.
It confounded me for a long time. And now that you can have
many thousands of actuators........
make progress. So that I can "ratchet" the game forward. This
means I need a source of food and water (like the screamer
regeneration room in DM or the worm regeneration room in CSB's
basement). And it means that can clean out an area of the
dungeon and it will not refill itself with monsters while I am off
doing something else. These are not absolute rules but they
should be followed more-or-less so that the dungeon can get
easier over time. I don't like having to save and restart over
and over again in order to master each particular part in a
big hurry.
I like everything on your list. Even the linear/open style can
exist in different parts of the dungeon and at different scales.
I like ****LOTS**** of little puzzles thrown in to make life a
bit complicated. CSB has a lot of them. The worm regenerator
puzzle on the top floor where you have to remember to bring
a boulder along, for example. Easy to do but easy to forget.
An all of these "little" puzzles are not necessary to win the game
but they make things easier and many are quite impossible to
discover without the editor. So they seem to make the game
seem more random (What happened???? Last time I came
here this door did not open!!!) Even the simple "Surrender your
possessions" puzzle confounds many people for a long time.
It confounded me for a long time. And now that you can have
many thousands of actuators........
linear and non-linear are both good, as long as the non-linear has anchors and a sense of purpose - ie rooms arent' random, there is a certain logic once you explore and grow to know the dungeon.
i agree with the food/water, tryign to drive people through a dungeon by limiting it punishes careful players. Also, monster generating should be logical - there's nothign worse than exploring/mapping an area and realising later you've just given yourself overwhelming odds somewhere else
i like puzzle choice - there's nothign better than two or three ways through a set of areas - so if you are banging your hread at one puzzle, you can maybe try another instead or try to fight through a flood
replayability is nice too
fnd the item puzzles are nice once in a while, maybe it's a good idea not to have it too unobvious (though if there is a door you can't open in an important area, and later you haven't got the item to open another area, then that should ring a bell)
most of the stuff on your list is good - personally don't liek the magical map thing, but that's just me
the playing styles of people break down into about four - five different paths i think
1) sit in a corner and train for ages then push through a dungeon (so food/water is needed, but then characters are overly powerful compared to monsters)
2) Carefully mapping (food water is again needed, excessive triggering of creatures/traps is annoying)
3) Careful exploration
4) Driving through/hack and slash (unobvious item several levels up annoying)
puzzles are always good thigns to have - varied in type, and importance. Even somethign as simple as a few floor pads or togglign walls is a welcome distraction from the walking and fighting : )
i agree with the food/water, tryign to drive people through a dungeon by limiting it punishes careful players. Also, monster generating should be logical - there's nothign worse than exploring/mapping an area and realising later you've just given yourself overwhelming odds somewhere else
i like puzzle choice - there's nothign better than two or three ways through a set of areas - so if you are banging your hread at one puzzle, you can maybe try another instead or try to fight through a flood
replayability is nice too
fnd the item puzzles are nice once in a while, maybe it's a good idea not to have it too unobvious (though if there is a door you can't open in an important area, and later you haven't got the item to open another area, then that should ring a bell)
most of the stuff on your list is good - personally don't liek the magical map thing, but that's just me
the playing styles of people break down into about four - five different paths i think
1) sit in a corner and train for ages then push through a dungeon (so food/water is needed, but then characters are overly powerful compared to monsters)
2) Carefully mapping (food water is again needed, excessive triggering of creatures/traps is annoying)
3) Careful exploration
4) Driving through/hack and slash (unobvious item several levels up annoying)
puzzles are always good thigns to have - varied in type, and importance. Even somethign as simple as a few floor pads or togglign walls is a welcome distraction from the walking and fighting : )
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sucinum
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i usually train a bit and then try to hack through the dungeon without pausing too much (of course i sleep where i can). you can see that in my dungeons, they fit my playing style but still provide a challenge for me, because i didnt save with monsters, fireballs and hitpoints 
. the riddles....i just included anything i could imagine, you will find repetitions in my 4 dungeons and maybe you will some day play another rpg and think like "i have seen this trap before..." 
i think, small riddles are ok to keep the attention, even if they are easy: a room with a big monster and a weapon inside is boring, if you have to solve a riddle or search a hidden button to enter it, it's much more interesting.
. the riddles....i just included anything i could imagine, you will find repetitions in my 4 dungeons and maybe you will some day play another rpg and think like "i have seen this trap before..." i think, small riddles are ok to keep the attention, even if they are easy: a room with a big monster and a weapon inside is boring, if you have to solve a riddle or search a hidden button to enter it, it's much more interesting.
Here's what I like:
Linear style: gives a great sense of accomplishment, but since it's an easy exploring, too much would become boring.
Open-ended style : gives much choice, and it's a challenge for exploration skills. Since it's hard to memorize an entire dungeon, too much would be tiring. Some tricks could help memorizing like distinct wall sets, pieces of maps, etc.
So I' prefer a mix of both styles.
Logic puzzles: there are never enough of these!
Find the item to progress puzzles : yes, as long as it's not too hard. It's a good way of linking parts of the dungeon (kill the chief to get the key to the secret passage leading to the treasure), but I don't like when you need to find a key randomly scattered through 5 levels just to open a door.
Movement/timing puzzles: alway rises the interest as long as they're plotted with parcimony.
Other puzzles: I like originality. Otherwise the dungeon boils down to empty spaces between rock walls.
Being required to use expert knowledge of DM physics in order to overcome obstacles: that's very interesting but only for optional quests, so the average player is not punished for his lack of knowledge. Otherwise the solution should be hinted and justified.
Having to use magic map: no!
Availability of food: I like dungeons with food sources at some specific spots and with some levels of scarce food: this way you have to manage the food, but not always, and not up to the point of being a permanent annoyance.
Places of safety: they should be exceptionnal enough to be of value; and since I don't like beefing the stats of the party without deserving it, such places should conceal some bad surprises for the campers.
New monsters: oh yes, facing a monster of unknown powers and strength gives a good rush of adrenaline. Probably one of the best thing to be done with a new dungeon, given the graphics are of quality.
New items/wallsets: I like them too, as long as they're well designed. They give a fresh feeling to DM!
Something I like too are good fights where you can't danse around the monsters that easily. The best examples in mind:
-the deth knights in the "dead end" in CSB
-the Lord Chaos level in DM (big open space where you have to avoid being surrounded)
- the Arena (in one of Lunever's dungeon? don't remember which), where you're surrounded by dozens of weak blue ogres
- fighting 3 dragons in a double sized corridor (Alkiir dungeon?)
Linear style: gives a great sense of accomplishment, but since it's an easy exploring, too much would become boring.
Open-ended style : gives much choice, and it's a challenge for exploration skills. Since it's hard to memorize an entire dungeon, too much would be tiring. Some tricks could help memorizing like distinct wall sets, pieces of maps, etc.
So I' prefer a mix of both styles.
Logic puzzles: there are never enough of these!
Find the item to progress puzzles : yes, as long as it's not too hard. It's a good way of linking parts of the dungeon (kill the chief to get the key to the secret passage leading to the treasure), but I don't like when you need to find a key randomly scattered through 5 levels just to open a door.
Movement/timing puzzles: alway rises the interest as long as they're plotted with parcimony.
Other puzzles: I like originality. Otherwise the dungeon boils down to empty spaces between rock walls.
Being required to use expert knowledge of DM physics in order to overcome obstacles: that's very interesting but only for optional quests, so the average player is not punished for his lack of knowledge. Otherwise the solution should be hinted and justified.
Having to use magic map: no!
Availability of food: I like dungeons with food sources at some specific spots and with some levels of scarce food: this way you have to manage the food, but not always, and not up to the point of being a permanent annoyance.
Places of safety: they should be exceptionnal enough to be of value; and since I don't like beefing the stats of the party without deserving it, such places should conceal some bad surprises for the campers.
New monsters: oh yes, facing a monster of unknown powers and strength gives a good rush of adrenaline. Probably one of the best thing to be done with a new dungeon, given the graphics are of quality.
New items/wallsets: I like them too, as long as they're well designed. They give a fresh feeling to DM!
Something I like too are good fights where you can't danse around the monsters that easily. The best examples in mind:
-the deth knights in the "dead end" in CSB
-the Lord Chaos level in DM (big open space where you have to avoid being surrounded)
- the Arena (in one of Lunever's dungeon? don't remember which), where you're surrounded by dozens of weak blue ogres
- fighting 3 dragons in a double sized corridor (Alkiir dungeon?)
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Someone Else's Problem
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Thanks very much to everyone who's answered; I have, and will continue to, modify my dungeon-creation style based on the excellent responses that I've received here (and I've also learned a new word). I was getting to a point at which I wasn't sure what I was doing any more - I'd already spread my main areas throughout various levels of my dungeon and had got to the stage at which I just seemed to be filling in the gaps in between - but this genuinely has been extremely helpful in getting me onto (hopefully) the right track again.
Anyway, the first question is still active should anyone wish to respond, but I'd like to ask another one: is there anything that's really annoying in a dungeon, the website-with-repeating-animated-gif-background equivalent of the dungeon creation world, that I should avoid like the plague? I realise that this question's sort of been answered already in the above responses, but I was wondering if there was stuff that appeared frequently in newbie-produced dungeons that turns out to be a horrible mistake even though it seemed like a great idea at the time, stuff in DM/CSB that's just really annoying etc.
Anyway, the first question is still active should anyone wish to respond, but I'd like to ask another one: is there anything that's really annoying in a dungeon, the website-with-repeating-animated-gif-background equivalent of the dungeon creation world, that I should avoid like the plague? I realise that this question's sort of been answered already in the above responses, but I was wondering if there was stuff that appeared frequently in newbie-produced dungeons that turns out to be a horrible mistake even though it seemed like a great idea at the time, stuff in DM/CSB that's just really annoying etc.
Four square dances with large hit point monster
For no good reason i call it surgery - when there is no difficulty to a fight except that a large amount of hit points has been plowed into a creature, so yopu are just there carving pieces off of it and strainign your wrist until it falsl over. Never fun.
Interesting fights can be when a creature has low hp but isn't an easy kill, as you have limited weapons, or it's magic immune, or you are having to use some strategy and movement in when surrounded by a few creatures
For no good reason i call it surgery - when there is no difficulty to a fight except that a large amount of hit points has been plowed into a creature, so yopu are just there carving pieces off of it and strainign your wrist until it falsl over. Never fun.
Interesting fights can be when a creature has low hp but isn't an easy kill, as you have limited weapons, or it's magic immune, or you are having to use some strategy and movement in when surrounded by a few creatures
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Paul Stevens
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Indeed, even thigns like that where the area creates interest and evil are good and makes the fight interesting again.
My favourite fight still has to be the three dragons in the sealed room of grave of filius...there it was alot of hacking, but there needed to be some intelligent footwork too.
I do believe alkiir has two dragons in more confined space too!
My favourite fight still has to be the three dragons in the sealed room of grave of filius...there it was alot of hacking, but there needed to be some intelligent footwork too.
I do believe alkiir has two dragons in more confined space too!
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Someone Else's Problem
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Cool - this [finding ways to negate the four-square dance thing and making fighting more of a challenge, at least for the big nasties] is something that I've been pretty keen on throughout. The difficulty I find is making such areas challenging enough that they have to use wit, footwork, and whatever resources they have at their disposal to win without actually creating a situation in which you're effectively trying to "beat" the player.
There are ways. For example the fun of tryign to fight two nasties in a three-by-three room - this is actually quite doable without trapping yourself, depending on their speed
Things like random wall or teleporter opening in a room, so a creature can suddenly trap you in a cal-de-sac, or will appear behind you.
Look forward to seeign what you come up with!
Things like random wall or teleporter opening in a room, so a creature can suddenly trap you in a cal-de-sac, or will appear behind you.
Look forward to seeign what you come up with!
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sucinum
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"having to jump down a pit to get a key"Someone Else's Problem wrote:Anyway, the first question is still active should anyone wish to respond, but I'd like to ask another one: is there anything that's really annoying in a dungeon, the website-with-repeating-animated-gif-background equivalent of the dungeon creation world, that I should avoid like the plague?
flooding with monster generators
Heheh I readthough this and just realized that everyone here just posted everythin they wany in adungeon that todays games would hate to have in a game. Isn't that something?
Anyways I have nothing to ad to this except to make it as long as logically possible. If there's one thing that bugs me a bit it's finishing a dungeon too early(or anything game like in general).
Anyways I have nothing to ad to this except to make it as long as logically possible. If there's one thing that bugs me a bit it's finishing a dungeon too early(or anything game like in general).
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Someone Else's Problem
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I don't know - all this talk of multiple monsters in confined spaces makes me think of the stressful 2 Pyramid Head room in Silent Hill 2 - more so because the techniques required to survive it are very DM (sidestep, attack, sidestep, run across the room, turn, attack, sidestep etc.). This, of course, puts me in the position of saying that Silent Hill 2 is one of "today's games", which, seeing as #4 is in production, is like calling the Spice Girls a current chart band. But if I was up to the minute and contemporary, I'd hardly be here, would I? 
Incidentally (and we're going into full digression mode here - I am actually hijacking my own topic, which has to be breaking at least sixteen different rules of netiquette[1]), I read an interesting article about game design on GameDev a little while ago (coming to think of it, i may have picked the link up from this forum somewhere), about the problems inherent in contemporary game design for people with not much time to play due to the commitments of adulthood. It actually makes a lot of sense, and while one could accuse DM of being too time consuming in the sense that it will repeatedly allow you to fail without the slightest bit of help, it is otherwise a shining example of good game design (I realise that I'm preaching to the converted here, but do feel free to give me a congratulatory clap on the back for my good taste) in that it's easy to pick up but you do benefit from practice, and you can play for a very short period of time and really feel that you've accomplished something, whether it's gaining a level of experience, solving a puzzle, or just moving on through the dungeon a bit. It's also quite a good thing for me to read in terms of answering my initial question, which is why I'm going to go back and read it now.
See, I wasn't really digressing at all.
[1] And I'm even footnoting in order to digress from my digression...when was the last time the word "netiquette" was actually used? Maybe I can slip "cyber" in here somewhere as well...
Incidentally (and we're going into full digression mode here - I am actually hijacking my own topic, which has to be breaking at least sixteen different rules of netiquette[1]), I read an interesting article about game design on GameDev a little while ago (coming to think of it, i may have picked the link up from this forum somewhere), about the problems inherent in contemporary game design for people with not much time to play due to the commitments of adulthood. It actually makes a lot of sense, and while one could accuse DM of being too time consuming in the sense that it will repeatedly allow you to fail without the slightest bit of help, it is otherwise a shining example of good game design (I realise that I'm preaching to the converted here, but do feel free to give me a congratulatory clap on the back for my good taste) in that it's easy to pick up but you do benefit from practice, and you can play for a very short period of time and really feel that you've accomplished something, whether it's gaining a level of experience, solving a puzzle, or just moving on through the dungeon a bit. It's also quite a good thing for me to read in terms of answering my initial question, which is why I'm going to go back and read it now.
See, I wasn't really digressing at all.
[1] And I'm even footnoting in order to digress from my digression...when was the last time the word "netiquette" was actually used? Maybe I can slip "cyber" in here somewhere as well...
Hmm........I'll get back to you on that one.And I'm even footnoting in order to digress from my digression...when was the last time the word "netiquette" was actually used?
I'm going to read that article. I'm pretty sure i can relate to it.
Edit- just read it...I can agree to all but a few points. I could post them but there illrelevent here.
Meaningless quote:
Words cannot have meaning unless they're given a meaning, words cannot benifit or harm unless they are allowed to.
Words cannot have meaning unless they're given a meaning, words cannot benifit or harm unless they are allowed to.
Oh yeah, a quick question regarding starting characters. I am producing a new dungeon with a new set of characters and wondered what sort of starting stats people preferred: fairly strong characters (ie CSB style) average (DM style) or weak (some other style).
I know this depends on the design of the dungeon and integration between the start, but some people either love or hate training up and having long drawn out tactical battles against screamers and mummies.
I know this depends on the design of the dungeon and integration between the start, but some people either love or hate training up and having long drawn out tactical battles against screamers and mummies.
How about three halls you can drift into? Hall of ythe weak, hall of the strong, etc. If you take the weak ones some specials open, if you take the ultra strong ones them more generators trigger, but basically people can choose the challenge level they want
Conflux is an example of weak starting characters btw - with the proviso you can trade up for better characters using guild items of course, so i suppose it's more a case of balancing the weapons or bonuses aswell as the stats...but basically still comes down to weak starting characters : )
Conflux is an example of weak starting characters btw - with the proviso you can trade up for better characters using guild items of course, so i suppose it's more a case of balancing the weapons or bonuses aswell as the stats...but basically still comes down to weak starting characters : )
Exploring every tile is good when you are curious and want some bonus goodies, but if it becomes obligatory and doesn't fit with your current mood, then the situation is annoying.PaulH wrote:Can't understand why people don't like having to drop down a pit to find a key: especially when todays intrepid DM fan likes to explore every tile. Pits are an important part of the game, to go down as well as just find out ways of crossing.
What's more, pits are not like doors or stairs, since they're one way only. If you''re not the save-and-reload player, you'll always leave the pit option for last. So it's even more annoying to have to randomly explore pits.
In conclusion, pits as a way of exploring should be carefully considered, maybe hinted, and not abused, IMHO.
Like Sucinum, I prefer starting with weaker characters and then building their power.
I tried to integrate pits and chucking objects down them/dropping down them into a few puzzles in ToC. If all pits were one way only and ended play there would be lots of dead ends and faulty dungeon design: and who's to say a transporter field that you may stumble upon is going to offer a return path to where you were? Would you leave that as your last option? Absolutely not!
Exploration is what dungeoneering is about. I think dropping down a pit is slightly more acceptable than prodding each and every grate in a dungeon just to see if there is an item there or bashing walls to see if they are illusions! Thats what we all resort to when truly stuck, but a pit, if there, is more viable and obvious option in the 1st place if you have exhausted your other options. But as you say, it needs to be well placed and not abused.
Sucinums pit puzzle, in my opinion, is one of the all time great puzzles in DM because of its simplicity, originality and the fact it beat so many people.
Exploration is what dungeoneering is about. I think dropping down a pit is slightly more acceptable than prodding each and every grate in a dungeon just to see if there is an item there or bashing walls to see if they are illusions! Thats what we all resort to when truly stuck, but a pit, if there, is more viable and obvious option in the 1st place if you have exhausted your other options. But as you say, it needs to be well placed and not abused.
Sucinums pit puzzle, in my opinion, is one of the all time great puzzles in DM because of its simplicity, originality and the fact it beat so many people.
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George Gilbert
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Without wishing to comit heresy, one of the better dungeon designs I've seen in recent times was in the original Tomb Raider (The Cistern).
To summarise you had a room with one configuration that when you flipped a switch changed to a different one. To progress through the level you had to repeatedly flip the switch each time enabling you to acces previously unreachable areas gradually altering other aspects of the room, collecting keys etc, until you could get out.
I think some people found it annoying, but I always thought it was a great bit of design to cram so many puzzles into such a small area by repeatedly having to traverse the same room (but in different states).
Kind of similar to CSB really
To summarise you had a room with one configuration that when you flipped a switch changed to a different one. To progress through the level you had to repeatedly flip the switch each time enabling you to acces previously unreachable areas gradually altering other aspects of the room, collecting keys etc, until you could get out.
I think some people found it annoying, but I always thought it was a great bit of design to cram so many puzzles into such a small area by repeatedly having to traverse the same room (but in different states).
Kind of similar to CSB really