Conflux III discussion thread - potential spoilers

[Zan]

Yes, looking good again, thank you.

I don't know the Oracle file name. If you let me know, I'll check its date.

[Phoenix]

The respawn rate is constant. Rats spawn in the main enterance. When you step on either of two grates on the floor a rat is spawned. If you then attack the rat, kill it, and put any items it drops in your inventory, you only have to wait 5-7 seconds before a new rat can be spawned.

As I see it, this is only true for the first 30-50 rats. Then the respawn timer seems to be set to a higher value.

Sorry, but this your perception, not what the actual game code shows. The disable generator is set to 50, so if I do the math correctly, it's 8.33 seconds before the generator can activate again. When you step on a pad, a rat is spawned 2.5 seconds after that. Whether or not a rat drops a steak and a hide is another matter. Paul can explain the actuator better than I can.

[Paul Stevens]

Paul can explain the actuator better than I can.

Ouch!

In DM or CSB these things are relatively simple. But in Conflux? Nothing
is 'normal' in Conflux. For starters, that generator shares its location
with !two! DSAs. They are named "fading generator" and "monsgen sound A'.
The latter sounds (from its name) like a generic sort of thing that has something
to do with generator sounds. The former? I don't want to guess. Here it is:

0S0 L$ &GENERATORDELAY@ &DUP L0 &< ?J1T3 &DUP L255 &< ?J1S1
1S1 &1+ L$ &GENERATORDELAY!
1T3 &DROP

So, good people......The DSA does appear to modify
something called 'GENERATORDELAY'. If there is enough
interest we might be able to decode this completely. I would
be up to the task but only after some painful re-education.
For example, the first instruction --- "LS" ---- What does that do?

The name - "fading generator" - might imply a generator that
fades away or loses its power.

Even worse than what I have described here is the fact that Conflux
is extremely complex. There could very well be a DSA in some remote part
of the dungeon that disables this generator for 3 minutes when, for example,
Jed presses a switch in the mines while holding a Chewer Pod in his left hand.
Conflux contains evil things like that. Most will never be discovered.
A few are known to be broken and do not do what they were intended to do.

On with the argument. I mean discussion.

[Phoenix]

Yes, many of the DSA's are undocumented and only Zyx really knows what they do. I don't know if this info is of any use:

ACTUATOR[fffe 0000 5304 e540] typ=00 val=000 Target=01(21,28)0 OO=1 au=0 act=0 NO DL=06
Actuator disabled
Unknown timer 5 results
Unknown timer 5 results
Create monsters at 01(21,28)

Anyway, once you unlock the guild elevator and open the gate to the Officer's Canteen in the Mines, there's an endless supply of food. I like to fry a VEN egg with a torch for a cooked egg. A cooked egg can be eaten for a better food value than a steak and can be thrown to produce a MON poison cloud.

[Paul Stevens]

Phoenix has supplied, and I have posted, single guild speedruns:

https://dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin/Conflu ... uildDemos/

Each has a slow and a fast playback batch file. The fast playbacks take
about three minutes.

[Zan]

For starters, that generator shares its location
with !two! DSAs. They are named "fading generator" and "monsgen sound A'.
The latter sounds (from its name) like a generic sort of thing that has something
to do with generator sounds. The former? I don't want to guess. Here it is:

0S0 L$ &GENERATORDELAY@ &DUP L0 &< ?J1T3 &DUP L255 &< ?J1S1
1S1 &1+ L$ &GENERATORDELAY!
1T3 &DROP

So, good people......The DSA does appear to modify
something called 'GENERATORDELAY'. If there is enough
interest we might be able to decode this completely. I would
be up to the task but only after some painful re-education.
For example, the first instruction --- "LS" ---- What does that do?

The name - "fading generator" - might imply a generator that
fades away or loses its power.

I just want to add 2 things I noticed when examining with CSBuild.
The wall in the West {1,19,28} of the generator square points also to the square and says soething like "Counter...".
And a square in the Storage Cellar {1,8,5} points also to the generator. If you step onto it, it gets disabled and longer points to the generator square - whatever that means?!?

I doubt whether it makes sense going deeper here (see my comment below).

Even worse than what I have described here is the fact that Conflux
is extremely complex. There could very well be a DSA in some remote part
of the dungeon that disables this generator for 3 minutes when, for example,
Jed presses a switch in the mines while holding a Chewer Pod in his left hand.
Conflux contains evil things like that. Most will never be discovered.
A few are known to be broken and do not do what they were intended to do.

I think it might be something like that. It could be just as easy as stepping onto a square (I saw already some squares that removed walls really far away from their locations...)

Examples:
1. There is no limit from the beginning: I stepped onto the "wrong" square and activated the limit and Phoenix didn't step onto it.
2. There is a limit: Phoenix stepped onto the "right" square and removed it, and I didn't.
3. Or a little more devilish: there is a limit. You can remove it - but only if you haven't reached it yet...
And maybe you really need that Chewer Pod also!

I think we shouldn't go deeper into this (especially since there is enough other food). Maybe we should just finish with: there is something strange here!

Nevertheless, that was a great discussion.

[Phoenix]

The game changes depending upon which champions you have. When I play Leif, I see more rats generated in the Cellar. When I play Gando, the number of gigglers and leprechauns almost doubles. There are dialogs that only occur, doors that open for certain champions. There are weapons/armor/items that can only safely used by specific champions. If you aren't quick to explore the Cellar, rats will eat all the cheeze on the ground. Certain actions like killing Vecna, permenently change the game. You also can't see and do everything in Conflux in one game. The replayability sets Conflux apart from most dungeons.

[Zan]

Today I found some time to do some more testing on experience points with Leif.

I killed Chewers and Rats until being FIghter Apprentice: Without opening Guild doors, then went through the Wine Cellar to the Temple door again and started bashing it. Then – astonishing enough – after many, many bashes (about 10 times more than normally needed when opening the guild door before) I went up to Journeyman. So I went back to my last savegame and did a savegame just one bash before levelling up to Journeyman.

Now I did two variants:
1. Opened the first guild door. Bashed the second one (which resulted in Journeyman).
2. Bashed the Temple door another time (which resulted in Journeyman), then opened the first guild door. After this you still get the message "You need a higher fighter rank..." (as expected). Bashed the second guild door.

Then went back to the Temple door and bashed it until Craftsman. In both cases I needed 267 hits which looks fine, since each bash results in 15 XP which multiplies to 4005. I verified also with minimum window size as described by Paul above and noticed XP increasing from X'6e8 to X'168d (also 4005 points).

From this I would conclude the following:
1. You still get about 10% XP (or a little less) when fighting at the current maximum level.
2. You even can get a higher rank without opening guild doors.
3. There are no further penalties for further levels.

[Phoenix]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand the purpose of this research. The level locks are a part of Conflux's design since at least V3k. If they are not working properly, then that is a bug.

[Zan]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand the purpose of this research.

Yes, I should have said this more clearly before: the purpose was to check that there are no penalties in later levels - only less XP until you open the next guild door.

The level locks are a part of Conflux's design since at least V3k. If they are not working properly, then that is a bug.

Not sure whether this is a bug. It could also be intended and programmed to give players just 10% XP instead of 100% and let them level up very, very slow. Why not?

In real games I NEVER levelled up when at current maximum level - not even in the first ones where I really didn't have a plan... So it looks as if I found the guild items somehow "just in time" with not too much XP waste. Most of the time it was the fighter guild where I reached the limit (due to the missing guild riddle item...). So I did many fights in Ninja mode to avoid fighter XP waste.

Anyway I'm currently thinking about a restart, since I found out several things that I could have done better. Should result in less XP waste also...

[Zyx]

I should say something about your recent collective efforts. I'd like to say more but it's just up to others to find the time. I'm onto other matters.
Congrats for your stubbornness and method. I recall effectively wanting to tone down the possibilities of learning skills without some social sharing, like having a plateau if you're only on your own. But it would still be doable, at a slower pace... Now imagine reaching some master level this way. Shouldn't you be something, for a master? After all, reaching the hard way is not the same as reaching the easy way, unlocked by masters and teaching, but no so much autodidactism and intuition of reality... What if you learn some dirty or intuitive tricks like special moves, or "spells (like spend 1st level 1st rune and cast, spend 1st level rune and cast, then, if in next 5s, spend and cast next spell with tripled effects!) ? It could be interesting... Just the detail of needing to be implemented! Maybe I could help, if someone wants to learn how to make a DSA. Otherwise, maybe to be remember in some future creation.
Also, the rat nest should be as recently hypothesized, namely that the rate generation should start decreasing after a while. Don't remember if it stops completely. Everything has an end after all. But then, after a while, the habitat should be colonized again by some nesting critter allowed by the level. Not implemented either!

[jiri]

Small hint for Techno level (Mophus quest). ....Place each Essence gem in their amalgam south of the reactor....

Spoiler

It seems that NORMAL version of gems works there as well. On the other hand it was fun for me to obtain Essence gems.

[jiri]

I am in level 35 (Mophus quest -> part which is not mandatory to finish quest, pity in my opinion). I was able to clean whole level including nice fight after stepping to 35(15,01) and I managed to get sapphire key. Now I am able to enter "Cunning wing". I was not able to figure out how to solve Frozen Chambers riddle. I only found following note in level editor (Ordered messages from S0 to T3. If sucess, MSA) but it did not help me much. Are there any other hints available for this riddle?
In the rooms with bags 35(22,20) I found bag with four sar wines. Is it main treasure of this level? It seems to be only valuable items in this level for me. But to be able to create zo liquer from it I would also need selenium. I know that I can obtain selenium from Moonstone Necklace and I used all of them for it.
Is there ANOTHER way how to obtain selenium?

[Phoenix]

Unfortunately level 35 and that riddle is unfinished. I'm not sure if that level actually has a treasure. As for selenium, the answer is no.

[jiri]

https://dmwiki.atomas.com/wiki/Conflux/Competition
I think there is small mistake in The Challenge Rating table. In my current game I am Dungeon Master with 161 point (that is reason why I realized it).
140 - 169 Expert Hero.
170 - 179 Dunegon Master.
should probably be:
140 - 159 Expert Hero.
160 - 179 Dunegon Master.
Can anybody with appropriate wiki edit permission correct it?

[Phoenix]

Done. I've also updated the Videos page.

[jiri]

I started Maleficient Guild Quest. So far I am able to kill rats/trees in cellar and level my characters without big problems (priest, ninja, fighter so far). Only problem I have is FOOD. I have no problem with water.

Food is never an issue in Conflux. If you are running out of food, you're definitely doing something wrong.

So can you me give hint what I am doing wrong?

I found steaks, cheese and muschrooms, spitter berries, (limited amount) of ven eggs and I am able to kill rats for stakes BUT IT TAKES me long time because party is weak (hit and run strategy + help of doors). So I am able to kill 4 rats but my party consumes in the meanwhile more energy than I can get from 4 steaks. It is even worse when I try to get food from trees. I do not think that I could be much faster in killing than I am now.
I can start playing with just one or two members instead of four it would probably help me to limit amount of food I need.
Is there anything else I can try?

[Zan]

Hello jiri,

are you talking about the Rat Lair? Which door do you use for help? I think the one at the Wine Cellar stairs is just too far away.

Anyway, here are my recommendations:

Spoiler

1. With Maleficients I keep away from Chewers until I'm at least a Craftsman (better more...) Fighter or Ninja. I don't kill one before (you can circumvent them saving a lot of time). They take too much time in low levels. My impression is they heal up faster than I can take them down...
2. In the Rat Lair, you do not need hit and run. Attack the rats from behind. Most of the time they run away from you, but be prepared sometimes they also turn around. To attack from behind, step on the southern grate (1,31,2), then back, left, back, 4x left fast. You are now in the North of a small 2x3 room where you can get behind them. If they leave the room follow them as long as they don't turn around. When they turn around, retreat to the room. Oh, and of course, you should not step onto the Rat generators...
3. Have as less load as possible. Stamina decreases less and you need less resting.
4. Have grey load if possible (I store everything not needed at (1,31,21) - including weapon, but except food. You need to be fast.
5. If you have bags with you, you can put food into them and also store them on the ground.
6. Increase Ninja levels first, thus you can drop your weapon also for less load. I use the punch option, since it's cooldown is faster and it costs less stamina. Since I'm attacking from behind, I don't worry about bad defense.
7. You can plant Spitter Berries for your own Spitter Tree plantations. In the Sewers, I leave a Spitter Berry on most squares where I killed a Spitter Tree - except the ones that are standing in my way, e. g. the one next to Pit D since I use this passage quite often (and I'm often in a hurry there ).
8. If you have solved the Priest Guild riddle, you can also grow Spitter Trees at (0,13,15).
9. You can trade Fur Rags for Steaks (I think you know that, it's just for reason of completion).
10. In the Sewers is also a Rat Family and at least one Rat generator.
11. Later if you are strong enough there is an easy way from the Dwarven Mines to the Canteen just requiring an Iron Key.

Hope this helps,
Zan

edit: hint 2 detailed, spelling mistakes corrected

[Phoenix]

I started Maleficient Guild Quest. So far I am able to kill rats/trees in cellar and level my characters without big problems (priest, ninja, fighter so far). Only problem I have is FOOD. I have no problem with water.

I found steaks, cheese and muschrooms, spitter berries, (limited amount) of ven eggs and I am able to kill rats for stakes BUT IT TAKES me long time because party is weak (hit and run strategy + help of doors). So I am able to kill 4 rats but my party consumes in the meanwhile more energy than I can get from 4 steaks. It is even worse when I try to get food from trees. I do not think that I could be much faster in killing than I am now.
I can start playing with just one or two members instead of four it would probably help me to limit amount of food I need.
Is there anything else I can try?

The Maleficient guild is very hard and takes much longer to do than a normal game. It's kind of expected that you have played Conflux a couple of times before attempting it. You need to know where everything is and how to do all the puzzles. You'll need to do hit and run/door tactics practically the whole game.

What weapons do you have? If you're fighting rats with maces and staffs, you need better weapons. Also, you can't approach the Maleficient game like DM/CSB where you kill everything you come across until you have the best equipment, a flask, and have lots of HP. In the begining, it's lots of sneaking around and using doors and shooters. Because of the stats, you will miss more than you hit.

I killed a lot of rats until I unlocked the Guild elevator. Eat only when your champions food levels go yellow. Steaks and eggs are the best sources for food. Chewer pods are better saved for juice. Use the Bone Doll to invoke and pray. Once you have over 100 HP attempt Supplies for the Strong.

It's tough, but it can be done.

[jiri]

Hello Zan,
Your second recommendation solved my problem! It is kind of crazy, now I can kill rat (with punch attack) even with champion without any ninja level! I use similar strategy (attack from behind) to easily kill e.g. dragons/worms with weapons. But I have never tried it for rats (and without weapon).
Thank you very much!

[Zan]

Once you have over 100 HP attempt Supplies for the Strong.

Supplies for the Strong can be done with 1 HP (and without branch) almost without risk with a little running around. Only problem is you might be disturbed by rats - but there is a 2x3 room nearby here also.

[jiri]

Gauntlets, no longer broken, unique and vampyric (Ghoul Touch)
According to wiki, successful hits should increase Vitality.
I was able to kill stone golem or red scorpion with it but there was no increase of vitality for my champion.
What is definition of "successful hit"?

[Phoenix]

A successful hit is one that causes damage. The amount of Vitality you get is different for each creature. I just took one of my WIP008 champions and punched a red scorpion and a stone golem to death and only got about 5 points of Vitality. I took that same champion and punched a spider for 2 points, but when I punched four spitter trees, I got 82 points.

[Zyx]

That's one I may remember. Vampiric weapons work best with creatures of flesh and blood. Or should. Clearly spiders have a bad blood and spitter trees are a better vitality source. But the idea is that you can suck life more or less plentily according to each creature.

[jiri]

Thanks for your previous answers.
Can you please describe me how can one use anchor spell (DES EW DAIN)? When I try to cast it (with a coin in hand) it always fizzles.

[Zan]

Some spells need a certain wizard rank. Not sure whether this one belongs to them.

[Phoenix]

It looks like I didn't finish the wiki entry for the teleport scrolls, I'll fix that. The anchor spell is used in conjuction with a teleport scroll. The scroll that details the requirements of the achor spell can be a little confusing. Technically the spell is DES EW DAIN, but in actuallity it is MON DES EW DAIN. You need to be next to a wall to cast it, and because it needs to be cast at MON power level, you need to be an EE Master wizard. The spell also consumes the coin and is only visible for about 22 seconds. The teleport scroll can be invoked at any power level.

If you don't set an anchor before invoking a teleport scroll, you are sent to Aquatana

[jiri]

Thanks for your clarification. Well, then it has limited value for me because when I have EE Master wizard in my party then party is typically strong enough to survive without teleports.

Spoiler

In my case (Maleficient Guild Quest) I simply grabbed Caliburn and invoked teleport scroll to default place (Aquatana). There I found nice Pendant Feral necklace and was able to easily teleport from {17, 7, 27} to Sewers.

[Phoenix]

There are only four teleport scrolls in a normal game, so you can't really rely on them for anything other than an emergency escape. I've looked over my log for the Maleficient guild and my champions were all full LO masters when I grabbed Caliburn. They were all full EE Masters when I finished the quest. I completed all the normal quests, so I wasn't trying to finish the game as fast as possible.

[Zan]

Anyway I'm currently thinking about a restart, since I found out several things that I could have done better. Should result in less XP waste also...

As mentioned I did a complete restart. And yes: all my champion groups have unlocked 5 of each guild doors now rather fast. So I decided to start publishing what I have so far in the wiki. More soon...