Games in General: Save anywhere versus Restricted saves?

[Gambit37]

Games that allow you to save anywhere:

1) Reduce the time taken to complete
2) Offer a form of cheating
3) Allow players of different abilities to enjoy them game how they wish
4) Restrict replayability

Games that save for you at key points or have another "restricted saves" system:

1) Extend the length of the game
2) Offer incentives for progression
3) Limit progression for poor players
4) Are more satisfying

DISCUSS

[Trantor]

I think this completely depends on the game you are playing. In general, shorter games like the old Resident Evils proft from restricted saves, because everybody would beat them in a day or two if you could save everywhere. In longer games, it can get annoying if you can't save everywhere. If a game needs a high amount of try & error to complete, I prefer saving anywhere. Also, the more difficult a game is, the better it is to be able to save everywhere. Conflux is a very good example - everything there can be very deadly, and if you could only save in certain places, it would be too frustrating for me.

But I have to say that I don't care too much about the saving system, I'll take it as it is. I can't remember a single game that annoyed because of its saving system (unlike a friend of mine, who was so pissed of the typewriters in Resident Evil that he refused to play it). Oh, wait, there was one game that did annoy me: The German RPG "Das schwarze Auge: Die Schicksalsklinge". You could save anywhere, but if you did not save in a temple in a town, every party member lost one experience point! I don't think this sort of "punishment" for saving anywhere is justified.

[beowuuf]

I don't think that experience loss is a punishment, sounds a good compromise - stops saving every two seconds that can ruin a gain while leaving it in.

In general I prefer being able to save as often as possible. I don't agree that games with restricted saves are more satisfying, just as I dont' think unlimited saves restrict replayability. If you have to play the same bloody level or area 10 times from the start to finish it, then a) that's boring, and b) i have seen that level as much as I ever want to see it again...expecially if it's a difficult game so I might have to play it several times. Replayability - 0. If I can save whenever I like, then I am maybe still challenged by a difficult area, puzzle, creature, environmental set up, etc- I can beat it without soing 'ugh, I have to do that long level again' and will probably prelay the game again another time.

For example, I like Half Life's system - you get a save per level, but you also get one...only one...saved game slot. You can save before doing somethign difficult or tedious, but maybe you've just screwed yourself - too little health, etc - in that case, you restart earlier. But otherwise you can go on. I think the method Trantor didn't like would also actually be a good system.

I beleive unlimited saves, as you say, offers different levels of abilities to enjoy the game how they wish. Some people play tons of FPSs. A game difficult enough to challenge them (I know you also have game settigns, but still, there will be challenging bits no matter what) can be annoyign and disheartening to a casual gamer withotu the ability to save before a challenge onyl, and hone the skills they ned at that point. Also, people with good skills but limited time - I remember this coming up in the DM Java forum, and someone argued abotu their time. They were busy t work, only had a few horus to enjoy a game, so hated having to invest hours which should be rewarding and relaxing, and instead because of bad decision you lose the whole night...waht was the point, do you feel less stressed at the end. Nope.

Reward - well, you get what you put into a game. If someone decides t save every two secodns and claw their way through a game, and at the end whines it was 'too easy' then screw them, they took the way through they did and get the rewards they did. A system shouldnt' be imposed to 'save' peope frm themselve,s and punish people who played a game through and got slapped for a poor deciaion.
I agree it's really easy to restart, especially if it costs you nothign in playing time to the last save, to restart after even the most minor badness. Then again, that is jsut down to the person havign discipline. I save often, but I try not to take advantage of it and only restart due to major death or if I've screwed myself. Sometimes I don't, but mostly I do, I will even save over a god save as I progress from a bad decision as long as I know there is a way out of it (dead characters or falling back to a previous level - as long as it is not insane, suck it up). It's more rewarding, but I don't want it imposed on me

As a dungeon designer I would argue for restricted saves sometimes, but as your points seem to be biased for it, I wanted ot do a mroe 'for' argument, especially as that is my prefered saving system : )

[Gambit37]

I love starting these discussions! I wasn't being particularly biased one way or another, I just listed some of the things that popped into my head for each system.

I don't have strong feelings either way -- as Trantor says, it depends on the game. Except for the situation where you get one save per level and find it very hard to complete because you keep getting killed just beofre the end -- now *that* is bloody frustrating.

Interesting points all round so far. Anyone else?

[Zyx]

For Conflux, I allowed saving anytime except for final fights against the ending bosses. So the player can play at will and stop at any moment, but for the final fight, he'll just have to prepare good tactics, face the challenge and sit until death or victory, without partial successes.

[Adamo]

Unlimited saving is as bad as saving restrictions, IMO. First and second method kills playability in different ways. I was thinking about it a lot and decided, that I would prefere some sort of a compromise: X special objects on a whole game (for example 200), wchich you loose 1 of these objects each time you save the game. How many of those objects are in a game - it`s up to the game designer (you could easily balance the number, not to make a game too easy or too hard). For example: each time you save the game (no matter when or where are you), you loose one special coin or something (I allready wrote about it somewhere on the forum). That means you decide, on wchich level you want to take advantage of these coins. You can gather them on easy levels to use it for harder levels, or to fights with "bosses", for example.
Of course, a lot of these objects should be also a reward for a player, hidden in some special places and areas (after killing a dragon you gain five more coins, wchich mean 5 more saves, etc.)
The whole idea is that you`re using it as you wish - there are no restrictions. The only restriction is they amount [number] (number of possible saves).
In that case, that would requite the players, who watch they moves, who has some strategy of playing (strategies of fights or even avoiding too strong monsters), and not these, who plays in "a russian tank style": save every 2 seconds and kill everything that moves with no strategy (like I do sometimes)

I think it wouldn`t be hard to do with DSAs, would it?

[beowuuf]

Fantastically easy...umm, kinda It : )

Say you'd associate a 'save' action on the coin using ADGE, and using a party attack filter in CSBwin you would use it to detect when this 'save' action is implemented. It triggers your save regulating DSA. By default this DSA has set the dungeon to no saves. For a window you can have the DSA alter it's sate (save for five seconds) to 'allow saves'. You could even use a parameter to keep track of the amount of times this is implemented, so you could have 500 coins around (each coin being deleted after use by the DSA) and still only allow 200 saves, of b) simply have the coin as a permeneant way to save - if a giggler steals it, then you better get that thing back!

[Adamo]

To make some appearances of sense with these restrictions, I would name these special objects "elements of time" or something like that.

"time element is a pure, materialised piece of time. Use it always, when you want to go beyond time and raelity", wchich means, that in any moment you can prevent "turning back the time": before fight with dragon, you save (loose 1 object), and if you were killed - you move back to the moment you saved (it`s a time disturbance, because in real life you cannot "save" and turn back the time, when you did something wrong).

In very hard games (wchich contains a lot of dead ends for example), the limit should be high - even 500 saves per game, to make it passable.

btw: What do you think of non-saving system in "Demise?" There are no time disturbances, because game has its own time - counter (but you can allways start from the beginning with new characters and get stuff you gained from the dead ones, so there`s still some kind of progress)

[Trantor]

This system of having certain items that allow you to save your game is interesting, but it is extremely hard to balance. I remember one game that had this system and that annoyed the hell out of me - Tomb Raider 3. I completely forgot about that game while I was writing my previous post. Now, I loved the first two Tomb Raider games and was very happy when part 3 came out - it happened to be the last Tomb Raider game I played intensely. Part of that was because the whole concept of the game got a bit old and stale, and part was the very frustrating save system. For those who don't know the game: There were "save crystals" scattered throughout the levels, and you could use a crystal to save the game once. In the first few levels, the crystals were plenty, but they dried up considerably as you progressed. I remember at least one level where I found only one save crystal - and it was located in a secret, hard-to-access section! And Tomb Raider 3 is a game with lots of deadly traps, and even if you do know exactly what to do, a level will take half an hour to complete. I ended up playing each level twice: First, I would explore the level thoroughly, saving often (and by that, I mean every 5-10 minutes!). Then I would return to the savegame at the start of the level and play it again, only saving before the hardest parts. Even this turned out to be very frustrating.

As for the punishment that Beo found interesting: The idea in itself might not be bad, but "Das schwarze Auge" was a game where any random was rather dangerous and could take up 15-30 minutes - if you had the game installed on your hard drive. If you played the Amiga version (which I did) with 8 disks, it might take a lot longer. I remember a fight that I lost after 90 minutes! It was just very annoying to survive one random encounter and get killed in the next, so an hour of gameplay was gone. The only way to prevent that was losing an experience point, and that just didn't seem fair to me.

[Adamo]

you are right Trantor, the whole problem lies in the approach to these crystals, (or whatever it would be), and balancing its total number in the game. But I dont think that balancing would be extremally hard to do, because (though I dont know how it was exactly in Tomb Raider 3, could you carry save crystals between the levels), in DM custom it would be possible (you could gather as many of save items as you can on easier levels and use it carefully on harder levels).
In other words, you would have to balance number of save items per game, not per every level! How to balance it? You would have to finish your own game (and count all your saves while playing on final test), and then multiply total number of your saves, lets say, by three or four (that should be enough imo).

[beowuuf]

AH, so it took insane amounts of effort to get experience, which you needed to trade away during the fighting anyway!

[Trantor]

Sort of Beo, yes. The next problem was gaining experience for fighting. Monsters would only give you full experience the first time you encountered them. Every other group of orcs after the first one you kill only gave you ONE experience point! I guess I should have made that clearer, but I still find it hard to express myself in English sometimes. Maybe I also hoped somebody would remember the game. But before this turns into a discussion of "Das schwarze Auge" (which is kind of the German equivalent to D&D as it is the most popular Pen&Paper-RPG here, and its abbreviation is DSA!), let's get back to topic.

So, who likes Mophus?

[Gambit37]

Yes, thank you, please stay on topic. If anyone discusses Mophus here, you *will* be banned!

[PaulH]

Its definately the time scales involved that we save more often because it is just so easy now. And taking the bald headed priest you have to save all the time.

But seriously, I am stuck right in the middle. I think the only restriction I would add is one save slot per dungeon, rather than the four. Or possibly an internal clock that only allows saves every half an hour - any more and your team loses 50% of hp, stamina and mana.

[Gambit37]

I'm talking about games in general, not just Dungeon Master or dungeon type games. What are your thoughts on systems used in other games?

[Ameena]

Well, I must say that I prefer the "no limit to saves" thing. If it's restricted then I'd probably run out of saves or just get bored with dying all the time between save points or whatever. One game that comes to mind (well, two games) when I think of different methods of saving is the first two Oddworld games, Abe's Oddysee and Abe's Exoddus.
In Oddysee, the game auto-saves when you enter a new section and if you save the game yourself and load it, wherever you saved it will load you back at the start of that section. You know when it saves 'cause a little green rhombus thing apepars briefly above your head.
In Exoddus, you can save whenever you like. There are "proper" saves (type in your save name, this is for loading up when you load up the game) and Quicksaves (if you're going through a tricky bit you can do a Quicksave every few steps or whatever). You press F5 to Quicksave so you can't have, like, a bunch of Quicksaves saved up, and I think the Quicksave gets wiped when you quit the game. It's a good idea to do a proper save before entering a tricky section, constant Quicksaves as you work your way through it, then another proper save once you've got through. There's also a "Restart Path" option, in case you fooked up and saved in a place where you can't possibly escape without dying. This puts you back at the beginning of the section like dying or loading game would do in Oddysee.
I like the option to save as often as you can but I do see how it may be construed as cheating. Oddysee saves often enough that I can cope with it (plus I've played the game enough now that I know each area well enough not to die 50 times doing it), but I prefer the saving abilities granted by Exoddus.
Hmm well I dunno if any of that made much sense but my sister is waiting to get back on the computer so tht was a bit rushed .

[beowuuf]

I remember Project IGI had the no saves system, and watchign my friend play it he simply memorised a level by the second play through...guard *shot* two guards round *shot shot*... doesn't seem to increase your skills. I think restrictd saves force too much replay ruining great set ups and so forth.... wait, I already sopke, nm : )

[PaulH]

I rarely play games that require saving. I have not bought a modern rpg for many years. I am a retro fan! I think quake was the last one I played about 9 years ago. But as Beo said, if you save every 30 seconds then complain, you are only spoiling it for yourself.

However I used to cheat in Premier Manager before the European cup final... And I quite liked the code system in Gods.

[Ameena]

Ahh Gods...good game (though I preferred Magic Pockets...yeah there were no saves at all but apart from that I liked it better). At least having a level code stopped you having to start from the beginning every time, but if you started the game at Level 4 then you wouldn't have whatever lives and weapons you might have amassed in the earlier levels.

[PaulH]

I think Chaos Engine was similar, I quite liked that too.

I am sure PaulS can implement 'one save every 10000 ticks' option into DM. Can. But probably wouldn't

[Ameena]

Oh Chaos Engine, yeah that was good too . I used to play as the Navvy (best firepower though slow runspeed) with the Gentleman as my CPU-controlled partner (fast runner but less firepower).
Umm in an effort to return this to more on-topic before Gambit storms in, what was the save thing like in Chaos Engine? I can't remember...you could save when you got to a save point couldn't you? I think...I know on the Atari you had to save everything on separate disks anyway since there was no such thing as a hard drive back then...

[beowuuf]

Funny, when you mentioned gods i was like 'Ooh, Chaos Engine' I LOVED that game when I played it on the amiga (to death, I might add)

That had no saves, you got a password every two levels(aswell as the shop) which roughly approximated your money situation and stats...then again it had replayability because there were secrets later, and differe,nt charatcers, and also you get more efficient at collecting items and so can buy lots of fun fun fun boosts! Funnily, dind't mind replayign that 100 times, but then again slightly different beast.

And Navvy was da man, no doubt about it.

[Paul Stevens]

PaulS can implement 'one save every 10000 ticks' option into DM.

Speaking of the 'Save Filter' . . . . . . .

[beowuuf]

Ooh, he's open to idea, rush him!

[PaulH]

Well, I think we have to go through all that 'who thinks it is a good idea' thing 1st! No point just for me!

[beowuuf]

I meant 'ideas'...stupid typing....I'm not fussed by the save filter personally. Now, a monster death filter... *but I won't ask yet, shhhhhhhhh*

[Gambit37]

Start a 'save filter' thread if there isn't already one in the CSBWin forum please.

Back to topic: I have just started playing Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time and am enjoying it immensely. It has very smooth gameplay (although impossible to play on a PC keyboard and mouse -- definitely need a dual analogue joypad).

At least, I was enjoying it until I got to my current spot: 14%: The trapped courtyard. Even using 5 rewinds before having to load the saved game, I'm finding it very frustrating now.

POPSOT has only a few fixed points where you can save. I think I'm not far from the next one. But I simply keep messing up this particular trap, I can't do it quick enough. Having to keep re-doing the same thing over and over again isn't fun. Game designers seem to have forgotten that the challenge shouldn't outweigh the fun element -- I don't want to get stressed playing a game, I want to relax and enjoy it.

Dungeon Master worked so well even with unrestricted saves, because it's gameplay was so well balanced and so compelling that you became so engrossed you simply forgot to save for hours on end. I think very few people 'abused' the saving system in Dm the first time they played it.

POPSOT on the other hand, and many other games in this genre, rely on fast gameplay -- they demand the player moves quickly to the next part of the game. Restricting the saving capability in this game kills the gameplay stone dead if you reach something you find difficult, even when using the novel 'rewind time' feature.

I've had to put it down now and won't return to it for a few hours until my annoyance and frustration has ebbed. In my mind, that means there is a flaw in the game, and in this case it's the saving system. If I could save just before the bit I find hard, I would be inclined to try a few more times. But having to go all the way back to the beginning of the level if I fail this particular trap isn't fun.

I'm only 14% through. I dread to think what nightmares await!

[Trantor]

Hm, interesting since you mention Prince of Persia Gambit, because I enjoyed the game very much as well. It is a hard game with a lot of try and error, but I always thought it was manageable because you could rewind time. This feature is a stroke of genius in my book, as it helped me to keep my frustration fairly low even though I "died" a lot of times. The save spots aren't too far away from each other in most cases, and I didn't have too much trouble advancing through the game. This is not meant to be bragging, I just wanted to point out how much I enjoyed the "time rewind" feature to make a very hard and challenging game a lot less frustrating.

[Ameena]

We've got taht game too. My sister finished it but I didn't...I kind of started dying loads after I got past the point where mobs can no longer be slain by the vault attack 'cause they're big fookers that just chop you out of their air when you're trying to jump over them. What I like about combat in that game is the fact that you don't have to line yourself up directly with the specific part of the specific mob you want to hit...you just kind of aim roughly in theid direction and hit the attack key and an arrow and he automatically does his moves...same for sand retrieval.
But yeah such a save system can get annoying, particularly if the section you're doing is one of those trap-after-trap gauntlet type things...you know, run away from the arrgh what was it called...big demon thing who eats people who fook up time...then jump this pit, grab this rope, run along this wall past big spiky blade things, then jump side-to-side up these walls before they move back and you fall down into spikes, then run up here, along here, jump and swing and run and jump and and and...If you die right near the end of one of those things (or worse, get through it and die to a bunch of mobs who materialise just as you get past the last obstacle and can SEE the next Sand Vortex) it's bloody annoying, particuylarly if you died loads of times getting that far to begin with.
Arrrgh what is the name of that thing...I'm sure it begins with K or A or something...blech blech blech I can't sodding remember, bah I'm gonna look it up and then edit this post...

Hmm I can't seem to find it...maybe it's in Warrior Within...
*looks that up instead*
Ahhh okay yes it was, sorry, I got confuzzled. It was the Dahaka anyway .

[Trantor]

Yes it is Ameena. But the two games are very similar - Warrior Within has a better fighting system, but apart from that, they play almost the same, so what you are saying also applies to Sands of Time.