HEARTSTONE QUEST DEMO ready to be tested!

[Trakl]

Hi Folks,

my first attempt at creating a dungeon for RTC is now available for testing.

"Heartstone Quest" is slightly non-linear, although a certain order is recommended.
I tried a lot to let the party members say something and interact independently with their environment.
I also tried to make the storyline clear.

Please have a try and report on possible bugs or plot holes.

www.1000jahremusik.de/demo_heartstone_quest.rtc


EDIT: Yes, there will be lots of new levels...this is just the beginning.

[Sophia]

I started getting bits and pieces of the storyline, but, honestly, the party member never talked for me-- I only found one, there was a mirror behind a door but I never found the key. This could be because I didn't get far enough into it. The way some locks eat the key and some don't is a little inconsistent and confusing to me. Eventually I got a Master Key and had no clue where to put it. I also can't get into the "Royal Armoury" but I might just not have opened the right place yet.

To be honest, the big, spacious, empty room at the beginning with no clue what to do is a little off-putting. I kept running out stamina running across it, and I guess ran out of patience after a while, too.

Here are a few bugs I noticed:

The title shows up as weird runes. RTC can't display lowercase text.

You are not able to fill tankards in fountains, or the DM style waterskins in DM2 style fountains.

Also, there are a lot of empty sconces. Are these intentional, or did you not set them properly for torches?

Finally, one bit of constructive criticism about the graphics: Some of the DM2 items, especially the rockslide, look very badly out of place.

[beowuuf]

Can I suggest that releasing demos shouldn't be a substitute for playtesting yourself first - there is no point in getting people annoyed instead of excited about your dungeon. It means that people will then be able to tell you bugs and things that you might have missed yourself, rather than them pointing out obvious things and giving up after a quick play as they know they would have to play through it again in a new release

[linflas]

i will always encourage people who release dungeons, even demos because we are fond of new adventures ! but Beo's right, i'm afraid you did that too early..

[Trakl]

Thanks, Sophia!

Well, the thing is, I DID playtest the dungeon a lot and even deliberately went into wrong directions, solving puzzles in "wrong" order etc.

It comes down to this:

- the Master Key is too easy to find (please do not mention where, it might still spoil the surprise...)

- some results of my fantasy are obviously too awkward to solve (or the dungeon is too boring to care...)

- about the DM2 graphics: True, some look strange. But that is cosmetics and can be easily improved after game mechanics work

- and I did not forget to fill the sconces, but obviously forgot to apply the proper mechanics. how do sconces in V41 work best?

- I should make the storyline clear (- well, about that I'm not so sure. It might have been due to the turn-off of big spaces...what did you do, examine every wall for switches? )

[Trakl]

Does anyone have other major suggestions or criticism? I'd be glad to include this in the next version...

[linflas]

i think many of us don't like huge rooms : it took me a while to find the first key..
but you're right about the master key this one doesn't work on the master lock, is it intentional ?

[Sophia]

the Master Key is too easy to find

It depends on what you're going to do with it. If it's some big, important key to solving the game (as the "Master Key" usually is), yeah, you probably want to hide it a little deeper. Or, actually, given what it is, make it obvious where it is, just hard to get to.

how do sconces in V41 work best?

The same way they always have, as far as I know. For a full sconce, put a check in the "Item is a Trigger?" checkbox, and then, the "Alternate State" one.

It might have been due to the turn-off of big spaces...what did you do, examine every wall for switches?

I did examine various slime drains and such, but no. The initial room was just so big, I honestly thought there were spinners, and I spent a while trying to figure out where I was-- this was at the very beginning, so I had no items to use as markers, and I wasn't good enough to cast zokathra yet, so it was a bit irritating. Going around the big room (accessed by the two ornate doors) is an especially long, boring, stamina-draining trip.

[Trakl]

Allright folks!

Same file as before.

- smaller rooms and an introduction to bring you on the way

- I established a complex system of triggers for dialogues between the characters - even completely different ones depending on who joins the party first and what puzzles you found first, so some puzzles are easier because you are told the solution by a party member...

- read the scrolls

- the first two levels - the whole demo, that is - are the exposition of the story where you have to find the other party members and some useful stuff. I'm working on the rest by now.

Please feel free to test again. It seems you only discovered a fraction, as the demo holds all four party members and some additional adventure...

When it is finally approved by you experts, I'll finish it in a couple of weeks. Thanks for your help!

[dungeon.master]

Trakl,

bravo for your dungeon

keep on developing it

[Trakl]

Why, thank you! What did you like most? I'll try to make it even better then

[Sophia]

Hmm... a couple more comments:

The trigger in the garden was somehow misplaced, so the warning about the trees becoming evil creatures only occurred on the way out, when I had already learned this firsthand.

Also, in various parts, I got conversation popups from people who weren't in the party. I didn't really understand what this was about.

I eventually got to some DM2 stairs that didn't really match the rest of the dungeon. The voices in my head (or the nonexistent people, whichever) told me not to go down. So like every good DM player, what did I do? Went down the stairs! Well, I ended up in a big empty room with no way back up, so I figured that this is where you ended development. Maybe?

I never did find anyone else for my party, though.

[Trakl]

Wow.

I think I have to change the story mechanics....


All other users: you may not want to read on, because there's

*********************SPOILERS AHEAD****************************

I never thought that someone would make it through the dungeon until that point without ever finding the other party members.
Well, here's what *should* have happened:
The poor guy in the prison who also had the keys to the palace doors had a scroll, remember? It stated that the castle spirit has the keys to the king's prison (the mirror behind bars with the skeleton key). So what you have to do is summon the spirit, which is easily done at the end of the hallway in the palace. Just bang the emerald orb against the round thing like a gong and (indicated via speech!) an animated armour will pop up in the big entrance hall. it is fully vulnerable to dispell, so just use the sceptre from the library instead of your dagger. That's easily done. The knight will leave the skeleton key behind. Free the king and he will ask you to look for his daughter.
You *could* find the secret way from the princess' chamber (first to the right, opposite the library) by activating the switch near the demon face which activates a big crack in the other demon face. From there you get a jewel symal. Dip it into the fountain and a movable wall between the demon faces will disappear. Go down the long way until you find some stairs (not the one "under construction") and you will find a locked door with a text "i will open to those who know..."). If you already have the king, he will tell you that knocking three times is the secret sign. Knock three times on the ring and the door will open. The princess hides behind the tapestry. Without the king you have to find that for yourself - then the princess will ask you to rescue the king before continuing.
Anyway, with the king in your party you will be able to open the armoury by clicking the horn against the demon face. The amoury is locked with the master key, but there is the onyx key for the second part of the prison.
Go there and... well you will find that out I think.

**********************************************

Maybe you can suggest some trick to keep the player on the way without giving too many hints...

[beowuuf]

Umm, the dipping the jewel symal in the fountain is a bit obscure, that is to say who would do that at all without a hint! . Also, would you know to press the horn to the demon face?

I didn't think to bang the sceptre on the wall, which is my bad I guess, sicne it did look like a gong. I actually assumed the 'summon', when pressign the button with the hand, would be later. But that bit is slightly more logical...though it soudns like neither sophia nor I foudn that an obvious thing to do at the time

[Trakl]

Ok, thanks!

***************** SPOILER*****************

- Symal/Fountain I'll better leave an extra hint on the scroll and give the king a sentence or two on the Symal Jewel. i hope that will do fine.

- The Scroll now states "Use Orb and Gong to summon the Spirit"...

EDIT: I'll have the King say "Let the Demon blow the horn..." ... does that sound ridiculous??
Or does anyone have an idea how to open the movable wall with blowing the horn?

Furthermore:

- Prepare for some VERY unusual game mechanics to enter the proper game

(When I'm having trouble programming it, I'll let you know... )

[Sophia]

Actually, I did press the emerald orb against the thing on the wall. Upon noticing that it summoned an Animated Armour, though, I figured I had done something stupid, because I was obviously in no shape to fight such a high level monster. I slashed at it with my dagger a few times, it killed me, and I reloaded thinking "ok, I won't do THAT again."

You might want to make it some other sort of monster, if the solution is to use dispell. Who would ever think to try dispell against the DM monster that is least affected by magic!

I hate to say it, but I am seeing the recurring flaw in this dungeon as the solutions to the problems it poses are just not logical. Jewel in the fountain? Fighting a knight with des ew? ... Whaa...?

Or does anyone have an idea how to open the movable wall with blowing the horn?

This can easily be done by replacing the attack method.

[Gambit37]

I haven't looked at this demo yet, but based on what I've read here, I'm afraid that I won't download it. It just seems too obscure.

Jewel Symal for example: Even with a hint, what is the logic for putting it in a fountain. There doesn't appear to be any logic at all.

You have to remember that what might seem obvious or apparent to you can be completely confounding to others. Everyone thinks differently -- you can't assume that people will make connections between unrelated actions/items simply because you thought it up. Putting in hints to remedy the fact that the puzzles don't make sense is bad design -- your puzzles need to be more logical in the first place.

I think you should try something smaller and simpler to start with and think more about how to create logical puzzles.

[Trakl]

Hmmm well I saw that thing with the fountain a little while ago in DM, I think it was a coin. Well, I can change that one if you all don't like it...

Anyway, the problem you have is: you don't listen to the game, you play with knowledge of the other games.

The thing with the Animated Armour is: it is more than once referred to as "the castle spirit" that is normally there to protect the inner part of the palace and can be summoned by anyone using the orb and gong.
The poor man in the prison had a scroll that said: the castle spirit has turned evil.

Then you have a scroll and a spirit sceptre: "use this to fight evil spirits".

what ELSE can I do to tell you: "take the sceptre and use it against the spirit turned evil!"
The fact that I use the RTC mechanics does not mean the monsters are exactly the same. Although I must admit that it confuses.

Anyway, I'll continue with my work and let you know when there is more to try.

[beowuuf]

The coin was logical because of the wish aspect

I think as long as it was a 'ghost armour' then it would be logical, because you do say 'the spirit can be dispelled' and when i had the orb i was ready to dispell it if i could ssummon it. I think even non-DM people might have assumed an armoured knight is a flesh and blood oponent though

[Trakl]

Well, the scrolls said: Orb to summon, sceptre to dispell

[beowuuf]

Ah well, playing before work so guess I missed it

[beowuuf]

Ok, finished playing it through now, thoughts, I'll try to go into order of play but will probably go by 'topic' :)

Start: The story elements work well I think, the various people speaking when you ressurect and the appearances of the guides etc move the story along. Minor niggle, I didn't like an invisible wall instead of a teleporter blocking me while waiting for the initial speech.

Intial rooms: I dont like the long corridors and expanded rooms as I tend to tap all the walls. I would have complained about the lack of critters to start with, but having played further I think the slow start this way is fine - gives you a chance to explore. I like the furnishings alot. I know they are the DM2 furnitures, but they still work, the motifs for each room etc is good. As a spoiler (don't read next line people) i actually liked the location of the master key.
Problem - there are two sconces aroudn that eat torches...sorry, I was checking and they ate my torches so can't geo back and figure out exactly which they were now.

The gong thing was my bad, but i think the orb/sceptre clue is good - the jewel symal definitely weird, and a solid knight definitely doesn't scream ghost though (funniyl, I was goign to have dispel work on thigns like golems and enchanted armours once... )

I foudn the worms area a little annoying due to the fact I only had one party member at the time, but I think that with a full party (or a few in the party) it would be fine. The use of skeletons seems fine too, you have the health balanced quite well i think

I liked the scarab beetle, but it didn't go for the one of the skeletons that come for the king and went the other direction.

I liked the interactions, they add soemthing to the story. I liked the interaction with the skeleton warrior too, and the scroll you knock loose. I assumed this meant a tough skeleton and you needed to go round it to get the scroll though...

I think the demo just ending in the empty room is bad though - even with the warnigns you go downstairs and then you can't get back up - if you release another demo, I would at least make the end recoverable, even if you will remove it in the proper dungeon

I would definitely make the later rooms smaller as you go, what looks good in an editor usually feels too much playing through when you don't know the route. DM level 4 is the perfect example, it feels liek a great large long journey, in the map it looks a little crowded and twisted.

Oh, I also liked your short cuts back in the lower levels.

Anyway, keep going (as I said in earlier post but it got cut off somehow :( )

Edit: Oh, I found the horn thing logical - the king says 'my horn will open it) and the armoury tag is pointing to that wall.

[Trakl]

Thank you for your great review! I already changed some of the things:

*****SPOILER*****

- There will be a gem lock to prevent you from going into the lab with too few characters, forcing you to get all the other people first.

- this gem will also be useful in other ways, for opening more comfortable short cuts so you won't run around so much...

- be prepared for an exceptional solution you've never seen before in a fierce fireball corridor...

[beowuuf]

Weird timing, just edited my reply to tell you the horn thing seems logical already

[Sophia]

Hmmm well I saw that thing with the fountain a little while ago in DM, I think it was a coin.

The one with the coin talked about a wish. It was logical. Yours doesn't give any clues.

Anyway, the problem you have is: you don't listen to the game, you play with knowledge of the other games.

It's a simple fact of life that players are going to incorporate what they already know in order to play a dungeon, and the best thing you can do is make use of that-- make it a little obscure, in fact, for interesting puzzle solutions-- but not to make something that is completely counter-intuitive and then accuse them of "not listening" when they fail to get it.

The thing with the Animated Armour is: it is more than once referred to as "the castle spirit" that is normally there to protect the inner part of the palace and can be summoned by anyone using the orb and gong.

Actually, I had no clue that thing on the wall was supposed to be a gong.

Anyway, just because it's the "castle spirit" doesn't mean there's anything inherently ghostly about it, especially since it's a walking suit of armor. A very solid suit of armor. Maybe the armor is possessed by the spirit, or something... I don't know. The point is, there are other explanations, and regardless of what hints you may give, people are going to rely on the looks of the situation too. If you want to imply that it should be dispelled, then perhaps you should at least make the bitmap transparent or something, and it might be best of all to not use the image of a familar DM monster, to make it clear this is something else entirely.

The poor man in the prison had a scroll that said: the castle spirit has turned evil.

I don't think I ever saw that one.

Then you have a scroll and a spirit sceptre: "use this to fight evil spirits".

Right, and a walking suit of armor is the first thing when I think of when someone says "spirit."

Anyway, I'll continue with my work and let you know when there is more to try.

You do that, then.

[Trakl]

I'm sorry, I did not intend to offend you. But referring to it three times as an evil spirit just sounded reasonable to me, since the armour is the only monster around, aside from some not-so-ghostly screamers...
Anyway... I'm looking forward to your review of V.0.04 of my dungeon...

[beowuuf]

Nah, I would have assumed that the spirit summoning isn't as obvious then - especially if you bang a gong...a physical noise...so you've summoned maybe a flesh and blood creature that will scare away the spirit until after the knight has gone. Actually, I would have assumed a sneakier puzzle, since as you say after three scrolls I was ready to dispell somehting...that would be an evil trick to play to then present a physical creature and you have all your slots filled with des ews.

I think as long as the knight is ghostly or different, as sophia says, and also I think if it had less health (it took alot of dispelling, if i didn't know the solution i would have assumed i was attacking something physical stupidly) then it should be fine

[Trakl]

Did you use the Spirit Sceptre for dispelling?

Well, I already reduced the armour's health a lot. By the way, I even made it possible to kill it with a dagger, but the percentage is very low

When the bug is fixed for V42, I'll try to import new bmp.

[beowuuf]

Didn't find the spirit sceptre til later...assumed would be able to use the emerald orb, but of course it disappears so left with one player and lots of dispelling

[Trakl]

Just want to tell you that I finished Levels 0-2 and reworked the things you suggested. I'm very satisfied with level 2 and I'm looking forward to working on the lower levels.
Thanks again for your help with editing problems.

I'll let you know when I have another demo ready to be tested.