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Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:01 pm
by linflas
but where is second gorilla(s shadow ?
my point of view is a bit more different : 640x400 is low res for me, 1280x800 is high res... but no DM clone can handle this...
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:17 pm
by beowuuf
I think the two examples prove the point though - the first one looks ready to go, and while perhaps not evoking serious atmosphere, is acceptable to the lot of us, and if the game is good we would start to accept that style and level of graphics and take is as normal and serious. Plus it preserves an element of fun.
The second one, while looking better and creating a more serious atmosphere, requires so much more work to not stand out as looking odd, and to take us out of the game.
So basically, lo res by default force a player to do all the heavy lifting and get in to the game before they start, whereas hi res graphics are cool, but require alot of heavy lifting for the designer to make them well so the player is kept in the game
Or something?
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:21 pm
by Gambit37
linflas wrote:my point of view is a bit more different : 640x400 is low res for me, 1280x800 is high res... but no DM clone can handle this...
Yes, of course 640x400 is still low res. Maybe it's not far enough away from 320x200 to make that much difference to old school gamers? 1280x800 would certainly make going high-res much more worthwhile and noticeable!
The point of going low res was to reuse as much existing stuff as possible purely to cut the development time down. But that really isn't what I want from Bloodbane, since we've seen that all before: even if I go low res, there would still be a lot of work, so this isn't really a question about cutting development time, it's actually just a question about which style people prefer.
Low res, cartoony, pixellated or High Res and semi-realistic?
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:58 pm
by Jan
Maybe you could start a poll here. But I'm afraid the result is more or less obvious... especially if you use such a cute animal. That gorilla makes me say "Look behind you, a three-headed monkey!"
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:13 pm
by beowuuf
I do think lo-res cuts out some design tie for you - the style automatically allows you some freedom from perfection.
Plus, it would therefore make the same game with different graphics seem like a completely different animal later on down the line if you decide to redo the graphics, or other grapical set tools become available
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:13 pm
by Gambit37
The gorilla is actually a rubbish example and not representaive at all, forgive my stupid error!
Weirdly, I'm not set on this myself. I'd like to use the high-res stuff I've built already, but as noted already, old school low res does have a certain charm that I also love.
Actually, I think you're wrong about low res freeing you from imperfections, Beo. With fewer pixels it's much more important to get them in the right place, otherwise things look completely wrong. It's the higher res stuff that makes all the design work easier.
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:38 pm
by Chaos-Shaman
Gambit37 wrote:I hear you all
I have a strange problem when I come to personal projects: I start things that are way too big and am such a perfectionist that 'good enough' is never good enough! It's even stranger that In my professional development life I subscribe to the "release early, release often" mantra and yet have never applied this to personal work. Weird.
Anyway, I shall have to think about this. Some issues strike me:
1) I have created a lot of high res stuff already, it seems a shame not to use it
2) Some of the key parts of the game require special graphics prepared for certain effects. Since these need to be created anyway, it makes sense to do them at high-res first
3a) I considered mixing and matching high and low res and experimented a bit but it looks, well, very weird. There's a mismatch in RTC with this problem already. Look what happens to wallitems when they are scaled in the distance (an alcove for example) -- they look much cleaner and higher res than the walls themselves and look out of place.
3b) It might be possible to mix/match in a way that works -- low res for everything in the player viewport but high res for the interface.
4) Even if I go low-res, I would still need new wallsets. I'm really not too keen on using the original DM walls as they've been overused and even the DM2 walls aren't right for this project.
5) Low res versions of the monsters I've created (from lead miniature photography) just look an awful mess unless you also then clean them up with pixel painting. This is so time consuming that low res would almost certainly mean using creatures from other games -- which takes away a lot of the uniqueness I was going for.
But yes, in principle, doing the gameplay is more important. Now, I have to work out how to get bits and pieces of hundreds of test dungeons into one big file... that's a job and half in itself!
I couldn't agree more. It's odd with the res mix but if the game is well planned it won't change a real DM player from playing it. I think time is the biggest challenge. Just organizing all the files and finishing an idea is difficult to find the time.
Slowly we inch up the mountain.
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:33 pm
by Gambit37
Here's a better comparative example using my hi-res interface. I think both work equally well and I think it would be possible to continue using the hi res interface (including hi-res inventory items) with the low-res game viewport. What do you guys think?
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:41 pm
by Lord_BoNes
I still say that the skeleton looks good! I vote for the low-res. But maybe that's just me
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:28 pm
by Trantor
First of all, you have my respect for everything you showed us Gambit. Personally, I'd prefer low-res, they just have a charm and a "feel" to them that just belongs to a game like DM in my mind. I like some sort of "retro feeling" while playing, and I may be prejudiced because of all the "all graphics and no soul"-games of today that use such hi-res graphics...
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:20 am
by Gambit37
The more I look into low-res stuff, the more I agree with you Trantor.
I've played around a bit with some low-res stuff from different games and I really do think you're right about the "feel". I think I can actually do a better job with low res stuff after all! I'm going to keep all the incidental stuff high res, but the game viewport willl now be pixelly...
Of course, being able to *cough* "borrow" images from other games will really speed up development time.
Thanks everyone for your thoughts, you really helped
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:04 am
by Gambit37
Here's a quick mockup using an existing well known adversary and a custom floor image that's been downsampled from my original higher-res creation. Not necessarily going to be used in game, but you get the idea... I think this could work rather well
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:11 am
by ian_scho
Will the items be hi res? When I put those things on the dungeon floor they looked slightly out of place so I downsampled them too (but preferred them hi-res). I think having hi-res hands and appendages would be ok, as those things always sit out of the viewport window anyway.
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:47 am
by Gambit37
Yeah, low res in the dungeon but high res once you pick them up -- this works well for seeing the details in the inventory and means I can use everything I've done already
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:32 pm
by PadTheMad
High res interface + low res dungeon graphics: Have you just invented a new graphical style Gambit?! It evokes a fantastic feeling of nostalgia but with the freshness of a glacial stream.
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:00 pm
by zoom
I can only second PadTheMad, looks really awesome.
--> Nice Mix!
(refreshing contrast; low res gives inventory this extra beauty; while low res monsters stay familiar)
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:48 am
by Zed5Duke
Both hi and low resolution look good, but my advice is to put more attention to overall gameplay and atmosphere, single screens cant say anything to player.
Years ago i was huge fan of Ishar, after finish part 2 i was very exciting about screens from Ishar3 it look amazing and i expect it to be best part of trilogy. In fact i played it later, finished and was very dissapointed, it was worst from all trilogy. First because graphic look different on screens and during play, second because story and gameplay was poor. I dont feel atmosphere, and used walkthrough solution, just to finish it quickly.
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:56 pm
by Gambit37
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:20 pm
by Trantor
Looks perfect to me! Those pictures somehow remind me of Dark Queen of Krynn (a game I still have to finish sometime... in a different life maybe). And I dare anyone to say that outdoor stuff don't work in DM after looking at these pictures!
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:35 pm
by Gambit37
Ta! The outdoor problem is when you're on open land in the daytime and need to fade to a light colour. Although the wood above is also in the day, I chose to fade to black/foggy distant trees simply to make things easier
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:26 am
by linflas
distant trees background is excellent ! very clever (i'll probably steal it from you
)
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:51 am
by Lord_BoNes
Those outdoor pics look sexy! You've done an excellent job there Gambit. You've certainly got my attention.
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:36 am
by Gambit37
Thanks -- though I can't claim much credit. That should go to the original amazing pixel artists: The trees are from Hexen and Metal Slug 3, the forest floor is from Final Fantasy Battle (with the "path" version created by me from a manipulated DM2 floor). The bushy bits around the wonky tree are from Shadow Warrior / Metal Slug 3. The Fire Imp is from Hexen, while the flying Locust is also from Metal Slug 3. (These look really good animated in game by the way
-- yes this is all in game, not just mockups this time!)
It's more a question of finding appropriate resources and manipulating them creatively. The hard work has already been done by others. Also, I've changed my perfectionmist attitude a little. See the stone path version of the floor? It doesn't cleanly fit into the cell boundaries and is cropped along tight lines so has sharp edges in places. Previously, I'd have spent ages cleaning up the image so it looked more organic and fitted correctly, but now I think that is good enough
The interface is all mine. Still needs some tidying up though.
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:27 pm
by Jan
It looks great, Gambit! I really like the low-res pictures! Sorry for my non-informed comments on outdoor stuff, caused by a lack of adequate knowledge and experience.
I'm really looking forward to seeing this stuff
in vivo, in the game.
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:25 pm
by Zyx
Looks great, looks convincing. The magic is here and I would play this game with complete "disbelief suspension".
The minor details you mention (ie, the cobble path) are forgetable, as long as the gameplay is interesting.
If you can achieve this quality quickly, then you can focus entirely in the map and gameplay. Once you have a playable version, you can spend more 5 years doing the high res version 2 if you wish!
The high res interface is nice and refreshing. A few critics:
in the upper right corner, the helmets representing the party members:
- because of the shadow and the limit of their crest, they look parted in half.
- the facing of the character is unclear.
The runes of power: I don't like them, they don't look like runes, the dots are too mathematical and geometric. It's too computerized and lack an ancient "feel".
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:43 am
by Gambit37
Hi Zyx, thanks for the feedback.
I agree the helmets for the member positions aren't very good. They do make more sense once you see them in different rotations but I'm not completely happy with these and will be looking at this again.
The runes are not designed yet either, those are just placeholders. I might actually stick with the DM runes since everyone already knows them, but this does make the game automatically connected to the DM world which I'm trying to avoid. I'll think about this some more.
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:42 pm
by Gambit37
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:32 pm
by Jan
It looks fantastic, Gambit! It's going to give a great atmosphere to the game. It's exactly the style I like.
I just have one question - about the ceiling: is the square texture supposed to represent stone blocks, or some sort of tiles (like on walls in a kitchen or bathroom)? Because obviously you cannot build a ceiling from stone blocks (without using an arch structure) - it would just collapse. In the original DM the ceiling is just an indifferent grey matter representing probably only the rock in which the dungeon was dug, and I think it's more appropriate (from a physical / architectonic perspective).
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:46 pm
by beowuuf
And yet I still think it looks good and fresh
Glad you are managing to power through with your ideas and graphics now!
Re: Bloodbane Rising : Teaser
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:23 pm
by Gambit37
Jan wrote:you cannot build a ceiling from stone blocks (without using an arch structure) - it would just collapse
Ancient Egyptians would disagree with you. Anyway, wow, if you're taking things to that extreme, why are you playing old school, unrealistic retro games?
I don't think anyone is going to much care about whether the roof is solid blocks or tiles while they are playing the game...
Anyway, the sample above is just a base brick wallset -- I needed to see how to fit everything together and the best way of building a Photoshop template for it. Most of the others will be a lot more interesting
