Naughty words

[Gambit37]

Hey, who edited my post!? We don't do censoring around here!

[beowuuf]

Weren't me! I know exactly how foul mouthed you are!

[cowsmanaut]

it was me, and that's not the first time I've done it.. in fact I've been doing it for years to everyone. However, I don't read all the posts on here and I don't edit all words. Just those I find particularly harsh or potentially offensive to some readers. I thought we agreed a while back that some words were offensive, and that some which were directed at others was not acceptable.

I have a very small list of words I think should be left out, and though I know we're mostly adults here, we have those still in their teens and let's face it, Dungeon master as a term is one used for table top gaming, of which a large number of young kids still play.

Let's just keep it to the lower end of the cusswords please.. I swear my share to.. you can ask anyone who's spent some time around me when playing games that I can get pretty creative.. but on here I keep a bit of a lid on myself.

[Gambit37]

I've sent Cows a PM and will comment on this issue elsewhere (in the moderators forum) as it's left me pretty annoyed.

[MasterWuuf]

Don't mean to be a mudstick but my 10-year old was all excited about Dungeon Master, and was looking over my shoulder when the language became a bit (what an understatement) coarse one day (and that was on the chatroom). He has shown no interest since then. It was a letdown to him, since a few of you even encouraged him when he actually 'took over my keyboard' to say hello, one day.

I've tried to gently ease him back into DM again, and I think he'll probably try it again soon, but I doubt he'll ever be interested in this forum again.
(Ouch and double ouch, for a 'Dungeon Master in my blood' dad. )

P.S. When we apologize 'to adults' for our comments, and then don't edit the posts we just apologized for??? Why wouldn't we expect them to be edited by others?

[Gambit37]

Don't mean to be a mudstick but my 10-year old was all excited about Dungeon Master, and was looking over my shoulder when the language became a bit (what an understatement) coarse one day (and that was on the chatroom). He has shown no interest since then. It was a letdown to him, since a few of you even encouraged him when he actually 'took over my keyboard' to say hello, one day.

I've tried to gently ease him back into DM again, and I think he'll probably try it again soon, but I doubt he'll ever be interested in this forum again.
(Ouch and double ouch, for a 'Dungeon Master in my blood' dad. )

P.S. When we apologize 'to adults' for our comments, and then don't edit the posts we just apologized for??? Why wouldn't we expect them to be edited by others?

Hi MasterWuff. I'm sorry your son was put off by 'colourful' language in the chatroom, but to be fair, that's used by regulars who are mostly adults, and they were probably just goofing off each other as normal. It's fair for chat contributors to assume they are only talking to the person at the other end of the keyboard; if you had your child reading too, had you made that clear to others in the chat? You know what people are like on there -- we can be quite rude, so it's your responsibility to tell us if there are younger people present so that we can be responsible in return. I even added a rule about clean language to the chat, but it's useless if people don't inform others about who is at the other end of the keyboard.

Regarding the apology that wasn't an apology: I've commented on this in the private moderators forum, but here's part of my response which should explain my views on the matter:

The "F you and the horse you rode in on" is a direct quote from the famous Lone Ranger joke; I used it because it is a great and deliberately powerful line and was relevant to the discussion: consumers telling the establishment where to go. Yes, it could have been said without the F word but I wanted to have the full effect of the phrase.

I am not defending profanity for its own sake, obviously it can be offensive to some people. What you have to decide is when and where its usage is acceptable. Within the context of our discussion, and the friends I converse with here, I thought it entirely acceptable. Obviously I would not have said such a thing to my local Priest in a prayer group (well, clearly not, I'm atheist!), but you get my drift. It's about context and audience and clearly my view of it being acceptable in this case doesn't match Cows'.

You asked me Cows why I later said "Sorry" about it, saying that if I was sorry, that I should have edited the post, because my contrition implied I knew it had upset people. Coming back to it the next day, I read it and saw that it was a bit stronger than I had anticipated, hence the apology; however, as noted above, I didn't change the phrase because it was intended to be read as written, offensive or not. Yes, it might be seen as shocking, but that was the whole point. With hindsight, believing as I do in what I wrote, I shouldn't have apologised as it sent a very mixed message. Anyway, this raises the question of whose rights are more important? You might argue that the reader has the right NOT to be offended by anything I write; I'd argue my write to express myself is just as strong. This might be an interesting discussion of its own.

[MasterWuuf]

Colorful is not a word to use with what I was referring.
It was an intentional 'string' of cuss words, immediately edited to prove a point.
Our 10-year old son was right there, who reads on a 12th grade level,
excited about this cool site dedicated to Dungeon Master.

Hey, I really like so many of you, and I realize friends get used to one another's idiosyncrasies, but there's a point where discretion isn't such a bad concept.

P.S. I think many of the gaming industry icons are acting like
a bunch of 'scab heads' as well. grrrrrrr.

Just so you realize we're on the same team here.

[Gambit37]

But you still haven't said if the person who 'cussed' knew that your ten year old son was viewing? Discretion can only be applied when one knows one's audience and blame cannot be placed at the feet of the cusser if they did not know that it was your son they were talking to. As a responsible parent, why are you letting your son into a chat room which is largely populated by adults, and about whom you already knew have colourful discourse on there? A little perspective here, please.

[MasterWuuf]

But you still haven't said if the person who 'cussed' knew that your ten year old son was viewing? Discretion can only be applied when one knows one's audience and blame cannot be placed at the feet of the cusser if they did not know that it was your son they were talking to. As a responsible parent, why are you letting your son into a chat room which is largely populated by adults, and about whom you already knew have colourful discourse on there? A little perspective here, please.

I've been trying to give very little info about what happened earlier,
out of respect for another forum member I appreciate and like.

I mentioned something about my 10-year old son. Someone used a 'stronger' cuss word.
I stated something like "Whoops, my son was watching over my shoulder."
How much more of a warning should I have been expected to give?
Almost immediately, one of the people on the forum sent a string of filthy words on a post.

Responsible parent? Perspective?
Are you planning on blaming me for being a bad dad
because I thought my 10-year old son might be interested in a GAME forum?

I've also been told I'm serving satan, playing a game like DM.
Talk about getting it from both sides of the fence.

I'm seeing a need for 'both sides' of this fence to get a little perspective.
Are you telling me you don't think younger people should see this forum?
I find it hard to believe that was the original goal of something called Dungeon Master Forum.

[beowuuf]

I believe it was for this very reason that you yourself set up the three rules when entering chat Gambit - because the regulars' conversations can be a little scary to new people, young or old alike. Especially now that we use ajaxchat, which shows ten lines of the old conversation.

Discretion and self-control is not a bad thing - perhaps we need to create an offshoot of the general news and chat called 'informal news and chat' where it is obvious anything goes.

Similarly, when entering chat can be open a new chat channel yet still know if other people have entered the default one? If so, then we can always shift venues and have a default 'informal' chat channel we usually go to, but one that provides a buffer for people logging on to the default one. Not sure it would work, but still...

[Lunever]

MasterWuuf: Yes it absolutely is YOUR responsibility to make chatters aware that they are not among themselves anymore. If you neglected that, well mistakes can happen, but the idea of compensating this mistake of YOURS with blaming the forum being to naughty and requesting censorship is simply ridiculous.

There is no content in this forum advertising violence, porn, inhuman politics etc.. around here, I don't see any reason to enforce it to become a Kindergarten. Next time when chatting with children around, fine, just tell us. Not giving merely subtle, cryptic hints, just plainly tell us.

[Gambit37]

I've been trying to give very little info about what happened earlier, out of respect for another forum member I appreciate and like.

OK, that's fair enough, but you can't expect people NOT to jump to conclusions if you don't give the bigger picture.

I mentioned something about my 10-year old son. Someone used a 'stronger' cuss word. I stated something like "Whoops, my son was watching over my shoulder." How much more of a warning should I have been expected to give? Almost immediately, one of the people on the forum sent a string of filthy words on a post.

See, that changes things completely. You didn't give that information up front, so I had nothing to go on. It sounded like you hadn't said anything about your son watching, hence why I asked for clarification

Responsible parent? Perspective? Are you planning on blaming me for being a bad dad because I thought my 10-year old son might be interested in a GAME forum?

I'm sorry if that's the way it came across; no of course I don't think that, I meant the exact opposite: You *are* a responsible parent, so I was amazed to see that it seemed as if you were letting your young child view a chat room, without informing everyone there that he was reading, when you already knew that it's mainly populated by adults who use colourful language.

I've also been told I'm serving satan, playing a game like DM. Talk about getting it from both sides of the fence.

I have no idea what this refers to, sorry.

Are you telling me you don't think younger people should see this forum? I find it hard to believe that was the original goal of something called Dungeon Master Forum.

No, of course not, but there is a limit. I simply don't agree with allowing younger members into a chat that is largely populated by adults who freely use colourful language. In this case, you *do* have to act as a responsible parent and I think you made a bad call in this situation. Yes, people should be more controlled, but you ultimately can't stop people typing something rude on the other end of the wire. You *can* however protect your son, so that is ultimately your responsibility.

I believe it was for this very reason that you yourself set up the three rules when entering chat Gambit - because the regulars' conversations can be a little scary to new people, young or old alike. Especially now that we use ajaxchat, which shows ten lines of the old conversation.

Exactly. The rule simply states "Keep it clean, especially if you are an experienced forum member who is welcoming a new joiner." It's there merely to ensure that no-one feels marginalised by the casual informal chat that the regulars are accustomed to. I've been on other forums where new joiners are often seen as worthless by the fraternity. That's unacceptable and not something I want to see happen here.

At the same time, I don't want people to feel they can't express themselves freely for fear that a young impressionable person might be reading. Like it or not, this forum is largely populated by adults and older teenagers and as best as I can tell, very few of us find colourful language to be a big issue.

Discretion and self-control is not a bad thing - perhaps we need to create an offshoot of the general news and chat called 'informal news and chat' where it is obvious anything goes.

Given these recent discussions, that's a good idea. There is clearly a wider audience these days and not everything that is discussed here, whether on the forum or in chat, is appropriate for every person.

Similarly, when entering chat can be open a new chat channel yet still know if other people have entered the default one? If so, then we can always shift venues and have a default 'informal' chat channel we usually go to, but one that provides a buffer for people logging on to the default one. Not sure it would work, but still...

I don't know, but I can look into it over the holidays.

[Sophia]

Enough of this vagueness. It was me.

Why'd I do it?

I was having kind of a bad day, and I didn't feel like being told by some newbie how to behave in chat. If you were so hyper-concerned about naughty language, I assumed you'd have squirreled the kid away after the first bad word-- I was actually a little amazed he was even still around to see the knockout punch.

Trying to blame that on his lack of interest in DM is just a psychological ploy and a bad joke. "Oh no, we scared off a potential new player by our nasty language."

[Sophia]

I've been on other forums where new joiners are often seen as worthless by the fraternity. That's unacceptable and not something I want to see happen here.

I didn't feel like being told by some newbie how to behave in chat.

Oh the brutal cross-posting irony.

You know what I meant, though.

[Gambit37]

ROFL! Nice one.

[MasterWuuf]

MasterWuuf: Yes it absolutely is YOUR responsibility to make chatters aware that they are not among themselves anymore. If you neglected that, well mistakes can happen, but the idea of compensating this mistake of YOURS with blaming the forum being to naughty and requesting censorship is simply ridiculous.

There is no content in this forum advertising violence, porn, inhuman politics etc.. around here, I don't see any reason to enforce it to become a Kindergarten. Next time when chatting with children around, fine, just tell us. Not giving merely subtle, cryptic hints, just plainly tell us.

Lunever: You must not have read my comments well.

I TOLD them my son was looking over my shoulder.

If you're going to act like I've made a mistake, don't go blasting me publicly.

You are the one 'in the wrong' here. I didn't mean to blame the forum.
What I stated was accurate.

You said:
There is no content in this forum advertising violence, porn, inhuman politics etc.. around here, I don't see any reason to enforce it to become a Kindergarten. Next time when chatting with children around, fine, just tell us. Not giving merely subtle, cryptic hints, just plainly tell us.

I stated in my earlier post:
I mentioned something about my 10-year old son. Someone used a 'stronger' cuss word.
I stated something like "Whoops, my son was watching over my shoulder."
How much more of a warning should I have been expected to give?
Almost immediately, one of the people on the forum sent a string of filthy words on a post.

Hmmm. MY SON WAS WATCHING OVER MY SHOULDER.
Subtle? Cryptic hint?
That surely wasn't my intent.

You said:
If you neglected that, well mistakes can happen, but the idea of compensating this mistake of YOURS
with blaming the forum being to naughty and requesting censorship is simply ridiculous.

IF. Well, there's no IF involved. Your mistake.
Besides, you probably would have been equally judgmental,
whether or not neglect was involved.

Now, to suggest I'm trying to make a kindergarten out of the place,
or that I'm calling the forum 'naughty' to compensate for a 'supposed' mistake I made?

What I consider a 'mistake' WAS made. I'm friendly, as well as KIND,
to the person who made that mistake; even though they might never admit to that mistake.
(Hey, they're also kind to me.)

Communication is always difficult when you can't see the person with whom you are communicating.
We do the best we can. Let's not expect the very worst of those who make the attempt.

[MasterWuuf]

Enough of this vagueness. It was me.

Why'd I do it?

I was having kind of a bad day, and I didn't feel like being told by some newbie how to behave in chat. If you were so hyper-concerned about naughty language, I assumed you'd have squirreled the kid away after the first bad word-- I was actually a little amazed he was even still around to see the knockout punch.

Trying to blame that on his lack of interest in DM is just a psychological ploy and a bad joke. "Oh no, we scared off a potential new player by our nasty language."

Psychological ploy? That's just a bad joke.

Now the truth of the matter has been brought out, at least.

Bad day? Newbie put you on the spot, huh?
So you over-react because no newbie's gonna tell you how to behave on chat.

You should have read the rules of the chatroom. Being considerate to a 'newbie' wouldn't be a bad thing, after all.

Psychological ploy. Wow. Thanks a lot, Sophia.

[Gambit37]

OK, let's all just take a moment to reflect. People have strong views and emotions can run high.

There is clearly a very strong difference of opinion about what is acceptable behaviour in the chat room.

You didn't reply to any of my points MasterWuuf, so I'm not sure if you read further up the thread, but please take a moment to do so.

[beowuuf]

Actually, how about everyone agrees to disagree, reads what everyone else actually wrote rather than thinks they wrote, think about what they know about each other, and then go about their days without commenting on this thread further?

This forum is about sharing a love of a game and about finding people who share that view, and if they also share your views on other stuff, great. I can't see this thread being anything other than hashing and rehashing differences of opinions and slights that have been made that is just going to degenerate.

Can people pretend this thread is locked without me having to lock it?

Please, you are making baby Mophus cry.

[Gambit37]

Fine by me

[Lunever]

Fine by me too.

Masterwuuf: Seems I didn't read your post thoroughly enough. Ok, you told them and Sophia ignored you. Sorry for having overlooked that one. Still, the web is full of chatrooms, including ours, usually you don't have any age control, and unless you completely control your kids and their internet usage 24/7 you can't keep them from encountering hoarse language. All you can do is to educate them properly so they do know language other than rude one and know when to use which.

You should consider not going to chatrooms with children looking over your shoulder. In the past 8 years of this communuty there was never a problem with chatting, so it might have something to do with your person too, and not only with an ill-behaving forum community. After all, there are other regulars with children, they just never created a situation such as the one you described.

I'm not with Sophia in regard to the situation, I can completely understand that you don't like to be ignored, but then, I guess she is right in asuming, that the actual problem isn't even any swearing, but the fact, that your son apparently isn't sharing your enthusiasm in a certain old-school game twice his age.

Don't forget that in this instance it is you who wants to force your view upon an entire web community that has bee doing fine for many a year now. I don't mind you making suggestions about forum and chat adminsitration, but it seems to me, that you want more. You want us to behave according to your personal standards, and I feel that this is a bit much to ask.

[Paul Stevens]

"Colorful"? That is quite a euphemism.

Somewhat like Congress passing the
'Green America' act which rewards
clearing the forests and stripping the
mountains for coal.

[Sophia]

So are we dropping this topic or not?

[beowuuf]

Apparently not, and it is annoying me to the nth degree.

Topic.

Closed.


Used PMs if you really feel the need to keep this going to any participants.


Can we please stop patting ourselves on the back for being a great tolerant forum if we keep attacking new people in various ways.


Goodnight.