[Custom dungeon] Villain Pit [RTC] [Zed5Duke]

[Joramun]

Ok, I think I got the logic. However, let me point that there are NUMEROUS way of getting stuck without knowing it.
(eg by being too clever and dropping some monster down a pit)

[Jan]

You're absolutely right. But it's just Zed's way of building dungeons, we won't change it (him). I can only recommend to save often and in different slots and create a lot of back-ups.

[Zed5Duke]

Peoples do unpredictable things, and even double or triple testing dont help in anything.

For exmple when made simple corridor with button, item and pit:
A-one player will jump and die
B-second will drop item and lost it
C-thrid will push button and that what i expect

And then player A and B say, hey! your dungeon is wrong because it should not allow me to made this action!

[Jan]

Hm, we have discussed it many times ago, and I don't want to start this discussion once again, but I have to repeat that you have to distinguish between:

- doing obviously stupid things (throwing a key into a pit with no reason and no saving before)
- sudden death (jumping into a pit with no reason and no saving before; or pushing a button when a text on the wall says "don't push it" without saving before, and then being killed by a fireball)
I agree that this behaviour is "stupid", although we may argue that many players will do that just because they want to know "what happens if" or they can't find a way further (but they should save a game before).

- real dead-ends, where you do (or don't do) something, continue for some time, save your game, and after a few minutes (or hours) you find that you're trapped and that you should have done something before.
This is annoying and I think it shouldn't be in a good game - think about Monkey Island and what Ron Gilbert says about dead-ends and smart game design.

[Zed5Duke]

I just found interesting feature to new dungeon, ability to swallow keys and eat ashes. Am sure many players will do that action when its possible.

[Gambit37]

LOL, well you can't guard against a player eating their keys

Jan's right : there is a big difference between allowing a player to do silly things, and deliberately creating an un-winnable scenario that the player couldn't have predicted.

For example: You provide the player with ONE key and TWO doors. The key will only open one door. If the player takes the left hand door, they continue playing successfully. If they take the right hand door, you instantly drop them down a bottomless pit and kill them -- with no warnings and no clues. That's bad design. It might be REALISTIC in terms of what might happen in a real dungeon, but it was unpredictable for the player and thus unfair. And more importantly, IT'S NOT FUN. Players will just stop playing if you keep doing this kind of thing to them.

Good dungeon designers make their dungeon so that it seems like the player never has to "mind read" the designer. Dungeon puzzles should be internally knowable in the context of the game world, and shouldn't need any "outside" thinking. If your players are constantly complaining that they couldn't work out a puzzle because they can't work out the mind of the designer, then it means there's a problem with the way you are building dungeons.

[Gambit37]

Incidentally, I gave up on Villain Pit because the champions are too weak and there isn't enough food. I didn't even get as far as seeing if there were any dead ends!

[Jan]

the champions are too weak

That's true. On the one hand, one may argue that it's more realistic; on the other hand, others can argue that it's unbalanced and the fights (especially those at the beginning) are a bit unfair; mostly, it's "one hit - death" (as PaulH said). Fortunately, the situation slightly improves on lower levels. You just have to be prepared for these fights (there are not many of them) and save often. Once you get accustomed to this, you find that it's not that hard - it's just specific. Saving - restoring is very common.

there isn't enough food

It's doable - actually, it's one of the most interesting and "addictive" challanges of this dungeon! Oh, come one! I finished this dungeon, and I'm the worst player here, so you have to finish it too!

[beowuuf]

Yeah, just when I thought the food would run out, it was replenished actually. I thought he'd balanced it well.

The fights are hard, but no harder than conflux fights to begin with.

Staggering saves and trying something is common, but I never found I had to backtrack to a different previous save except when I tried something really stupid to see what would happen.

[ian_scho]

Zed! Quick! Pop one of these babies in your dungeon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VDvgL58h_Y

[the master]

I think that despite all the moaning that we should actually thank Zed for compiling the dungeons he does. I couldn't even start to design a dungeon so I am very grateful for someone like Zed who comes along on a regular basis and actually gives us dungeons to play. I save on a regular basis when I know I am in a safe position, that way if something unexpected does happen then I can always go back to it. I think a lot of people just don't think when they save a game and save it when there is no way back. If you are unsure whether it is safe or not than save it as another name then at least if you find its a deadend you can go back to the previous save name.

[Gambit37]

Absolutely. Zed should be congratulated for managing to build so many dungeons.

As for moaning, it isn't, it's called "constructive criticism." If we don't share what we like/don't like about dungeons (and offer suggestions for improvements), how can a designer be expected to create better dungeons?

[Jan]

Indeed!

[the master]

Yes perhaps "moaning" was too stronger a word to use. Although I think that encouragement is perhaps what we should be giving the dungeon builders amongst us. I am very sure that it is very easy to run out of ideas especially when building the larger dungeons, and it must be difficult not to replicate what has come before. I am not am avid fan of dungeons that recreate monsters that have been killed. Don't get me wrong I think there are opportunities for this to happen within enclosed areas i.e in a room whereby you can keep going back to kill worms for food etc. What I hate most is when you have cleared out an area that has taken ages only for it to be repopulated with the same creatures only minutes later. I don't like fake walls especially those that hide essential items like keys. This means that in a very large dungeon that you have to tap every wall to progress further, fake walls are fine if they just hide food or weapons. I love an atmosphere in a dungeon and I think I am looking forward to a new dungeon that someone is building at the moment (Black Flame) where he has actually changed the appearance of the walls and floors as I think it will change the whole concept from what we have been used to seeing over the years. In fact I am very surprised that a lot of the dungeon designers have kept the original objects, food, doors, coins etc and haven't created there own. But then again not being an artist or designer myself I probably can't appreciate how difficult that would be to achieve.

[Gambit37]

Uhm... ok, you're well out of the loop. There's quite a few of us working on different styles of game with completely new imagery. Would you like to become a member of the Designers forum? It's private to prevent spoilers, but if you become a member you can see some of the interesting things that people are working on. Send me a private message if you want to join.

Anyway, we should probably stop going off topic in this thread. I'll let you see this response, then once you've replied, I'll move the last few posts somewhere more appropriate as they are about general dungeon design and would be better in their own thread.

[beowuuf]

To be fair, none of you working on advanced graphics have actually released a dungeon, so his comment still stands. And it's true, most people prefer to just do the dungeon and not then fight with graphics

You'll see that CSBwin actually has alot of converted graphics - including Well of Fortune - because it's so much easier to edit basic graphics than work in higher res!

[Zed5Duke]

Already have 25 levels of new dungeon and seem like there will be lot of fixing balance and removing possible dead ends = long delay before relase.

[Jan]

Don't worry about delays - we will wait! There are no deadlines here and only quality matters! Maybe you should find someone to test it for you before you release it for public. You can find many volunteers here...

[ian_scho]

Just enjoy yourself Zed.

[Gambit37]

25 levels? How big are these levels? Are we talking DM sized? Or Villain Pit sized (they seemed quite small)?

Remember the maxim: Quality over quantity.

[Joramun]

I wasn't complaining because of the design preventing me from doing something stupid.
I dropped a monster down a pit to kill it, and it was the one carrying the object I needed to go further.
Since the pit is insta-death, I couldn't retrieve the item. It was predictable, of course.
But it took me some time to realize what was the problem
because I couldn't know the worm carried something until I killed the normal way.

I don't consider this bad design, but it's a bit frustrating. The same goes for fights.
Long fights in RTC are boring because of the way monster behave. What's the point of running around a worm ?
Giving it the same attack with 5 times less HP will have the same effect on the player.
I guess it would be ok to have a tough fight with a group of monster, if I had a chance to live,
but from what I've seen, fights are either easy (and long) or desperately impossible to win.

Save-scumming every time I hit a monster or want to press a button is not the interesting part in your dungeons. The riddles are.

And I like this dungeon, as well as I liked Nightkin ! I will give a try to Bloody Hell and the others, too.

[Gambit37]

I dropped a monster down a pit to kill it, and it was the one carrying the object I needed to go further.
Since the pit is insta-death, I couldn't retrieve the item. It was predictable, of course.
But it took me some time to realize what was the problem
because I couldn't know the worm carried something until I killed the normal way.

I don't consider this bad design.

I'd disagree: that's certainly problematic design, if not entirely bad. Instant death that prevents a player from learning what they need to learn is unfair. In this case, a better, more forgiving design would be to kill the monster that falls down the pit but not kill the party, and allow them a way back.

Both DM and CSB usually had a way back from every pit, even if sometimes it was complicated to work out. I'd say this is a better way of designing for maximum player enjoyment.

[Trantor]

I agree with you Gambit, this is at least problematic design. It is something the designer can overlook, but if the problem is known, it should be fixed, and the whole dungeon should be double-checked if a similar situation could arise.

[Zed5Duke]

I dropped a monster down a pit to kill it

This is unpredictable situation, because i modified monster to be fearless, and switch which open pad is away in other room, i cant believe that someone kill that worm this way because you must really try to scare him and push him on this pad, then run to other room before he move and turn lever. We talking here about obviously dead ends, and this surely not count to it. Like i say before player do weird thing and are angry that was not prevent from it.

How big are these levels?

Not larger from 12x12 map size, mostly small level and puzzle, but also innovation: "multilevel labirynth" for example many ways down where some end (not dead end with no return) and you need walk back to try other way, its more difficulty from one level labirynth because you dont see on map where is exit from maze.

To be fair, none of you working on advanced graphics have actually released a dungeon.

I realized the same, thats why i use only DM1 gfx anyway it not hurt eyes when play longer, because player open imagination, he is inside some story and pay attention at something else.

[Gambit37]

I dropped a monster down a pit to kill it

This is unpredictable situation, .....i cant believe that someone kill that worm this way.

Aha! We have got to the bottom of the issue

You have made an assumption with your design that the player can't kill the worm in a particular way. That's the flaw in your thinking. Only George Giilbert could make that assumption, because he's the only one who knows exactly how RTC handles fearlessness.

Us mere dungeon designers can't take it for granted that RTC works exactly as we assume, because we simply don't know. This is why we should design defensively, and always ask the question "What would happen here?" Once you get into the habit of asking this question, you can start to design better dungeons that account for unlikey (but not unexpected) player actions.

[Zed5Duke]

If player can be killed thousand times by tough monster or obviously trap, then what is difference if sometime may die by bad decision?

-place item on pad which open dead pit
-forget to take key and jump down
-send monster level down and he got something important

Its all question of "deadly mistake" not "bad design" just look at it as hidden trap and load game. Bad design is only when its impossible to finish game, everything else is game difficulty.

BTW how work fearless in RTC, i found that weak monsters have large amount of such stat and tough monsters less, so decrease that stat to 0-3 make monster brave.

[Gambit37]

You just said it yourself! Bad design is only when its impossible to finish game, everything else is game difficulty

The scenario with the worm and the pit prevents the player from completing the game! That's bad design. In the example above, it's not a deadly mistake for the player to have dropped the creature down the pit -- because they didn't know it was carrying something needed for them to progress. If you had given them a clue beforehand that the monster had a key, then yes, it could beconsidered a mistake for the player to have dropped it down the pit.

But if you have not given such clues, te player has no knowledge that this montser is crucial to them completing the game. That means the player has to mind-read the designer, and that shows poor design prinicples. You are assuming that a player understand EXACTLY what you want them to do and you're not accounting for other possibilities.

As a designer you constantly need to be asking the question "What happens if the player does X?" and provide reasonable consequences for predicting their possible actions. Let's take your example above "send monster level down and he got something important". Only YOU know that the monster has something important, the player doesn't and it's entirely unfair to the player to prevent them from progressing because you didn't anticipate this possibility. In this case, you should have a teleporter underneath the pit (or some other mechanism) that puts the monster back next to the party. It might be less realistic, but it's a better design, because you're not penalising the player for not being able to mind-read you.

Bruce Webster (the co-designer and programmer of Sun Dog, FTLs first successful game) had this to say when I interviewed him a long time ago:

"Far too many games are what Wayne--nearly 20 years ago--disparaged as "railroad games", that force you onto a given track and make you mind-read the developer. I think that one of SunDog's greatest strengths was that--within the highly constrained limits of what we could actually implement--we pretty much left it up to the player to decide how s/he would play the game. I've been most proud and most tickled when players have come up with ideas that I never thought of but that were allowed by the game universe."

Zed, I think you're doing great with building so many dungeons for people to play, but I hope that you'll take my criticisms on board so that your future work is even better

[beowuuf]

Actually, the worm is behind a door and there is no other way beyond. If you are speeding through a game and killign things quickly, then yes, you might miss it, but I knew exactly this creature was important by the way it was highlighted.

Remember, Zed has stated that he doens't want people to blunder throug hthe game and win. The only ways I can see around the above key thing would be a) let someone drop the monster down the pit, then survive the drop down. That makes the fight easier and the trap /puzzle have no consequence. The only other way is to block monsters from dropping down pits, which robs the player of tactical choice (I think there wasa second pit around there you could use as a temporary block)

I agree with trying to decide what players will do and design accordingly. But you can spend alot of time doing that, and still have someone do something stupid. As long as it has been considered, then the designer is free to say 'well, if the player does x he shouldn't have'. If his game is good, people will live with it, and if not, won't play it.

Some decisions have been frustrating in previous games (the double pit where you can save yourself out of the winning game situation) but recently I think he's designed well for his purpose. I don't think I've intelligently played and still found myself stuck.

[Gambit37]

Really, what this amounts to, is whether it's the responsibility of the designer or the player to manage their gaming experience. It's clearly a bit of both, but the most effort needs to be invested by the designer to safeguard against unwinnable games.

[dungeon.master]

I think that despite all the moaning that we should actually thank Zed for compiling the dungeons he does.

+1

To be fair, none of you working on advanced graphics have actually released a dungeon, so his comment still stands.

+1

I wish I'll be able to build only one single dungeon, I tried and it's hard

So for my part I prefer a dungeon than no dungeon ..

I prefer to play a frustrating real dungeon, than wait for some virtual unrealeased unfinished dungeon ..

I thanks Zed that produces dungeons that challenge the mind, even if some are hard/frustrating/crual.

As we say in french : "Celui qui ne fait rien ne se trompe jamais ...."

So, to conclude, I ask all the creators of an "virtual unrealeased unfinished dungeon" to realease it, so they can receive our constructive moaning ...