DnD Discussion: v3.5 vs v4 and other stuff...

[Ameena]

I like DnD 4th edition - it's less, errm, numbery, than 3.5 so I find it easier to do, less complicated and stuff. Lots of people don't seem to like 4th editin but meh, I do and it's fun and I spent most of yesterday playign it .
Anyway, woo, new member, have fun here...well, more fun, now that you're actually posting and not just lurking . Do you have any interesting/funny/embarrassing DM stories to share with us?

[beowuuf]

Ameena neglected to mention we're also running a 3.5 ed (ish) game here based on DM right nw too. I like both editions

[raixel]

Hey, welcome to the forum . I like DnD 4th edition - it's less, errm, numbery, than 3.5 so I find it easier to do, less complicated and stuff. Lots of people don't seem to like 4th editin but meh, I do and it's fun and I spent most of yesterday playign it .

You know, I actually like the core rules for it. The monster system and planar system bite though. I just don't like HOW many changes they made. A more simple streamlined rules system is always a plus (THAC0 anyone??) but why oh why did they have to screw with the core world setup. When i saw what they did to the Forgotton Realms i cried. I don't set my campaigns there anymore, but they HEAVILY influence my world, and they should have learned from what TSR did to Dragonlance back in the day... That and my giant 3/3.5 collection that I spent 10 yrs building up (both Wizards and OGL) have really kept me from getting interested.

[Ameena]

Rofl that's fantastic . I can remember not liking Scorpions much, and not wanting to get too close to the Dragon (like the Scorpies, he makes a scary noise, which made me slightly nervous of Giant Rats and, in CSB, Hellhounds too), but I never actually freaked out like that, lol. Aaw that's quite cute .
As for DnD...I haven't played any 3.5 at tabletop - I've played computerised versions of it though...NWN, BG, IWD, erm...I think a couple of other games I've played use that ruleset too. Actually...I think BG and IWD use that weird THAC0 thingy (which I never understood - I've never been fantastic with numbers and the whole "a lower number of AC is better" thing just completely confused me) so they can't have been 3.5 'cause that doesn't use THAC0 any more, does it? Or does it? I don't remember encountering it in NWN which is definitely 3.5. As far as I'm concerned, anyway, I like the rules to be quite simple so I can concentrate on wandering around a Fantasy world, doing quests and stuff and generally having fun .

[oh_brother]

Welcome Raixel!

Yes, THAC0 and low AC were 2nd edition (and presumably first) which was all I played until I got NWN. And then I was confused by attack bonuses and high armour classes because I did not know what numbers were good. But now that I am more familar I think 3.5 is much better and more flexible. I could cope with THAC0 but I hated the dual-classing system. No sensible human would ever pick a second class. And it did not even make intuitive sense that you could not use the skills in your first class until your second class was a higher level, it was just unnatural.

[Lunever]

Welcome !!! Have Fun discussing Dungeon Master and DnD and play all those great clones and mods around here !!!

Seems this is getting a DnD Edition thread. 1st and 2nd are classical. 3rd had great improvements compared to 2nd, got a bit messy due to all these sourcebooks (a warrior's book contains spells so wizard players buy it too and vice versa). 3.5 refined a couple things and was generally an improvement, but got many thousands minute changes so switching was awkard for spellcasters. There was were great fan made tables and sheets to keep track of all the 3.5 sources, but most of these dedicated fans got cease & desist letters from Wizards, which made me stop to expand my large collection of genuine Wizards products. Then they made DnD4 and deteriorated a classical fantasy RPG into a stupid boardgame. It's so tabletop-like that even many computer-only RPG-fans find it to much focused on rules and to little focused on roleplaying. Most official DnD4 adventures are pretty dumb imho, but that's ok for a dumb game I guess.

Lucky us, there is Pathfinder

Pathfinder kept everything that was good in 3.5, avoided everything that is dumb in DnD4, and improved most things that were not yet good enough in 3.5.

And it's OGL.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/
http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ ... m/f=2.html

[beowuuf]

Please let's not turn this into a '3.5 versus 4th ed' thread, there are 1000,000 of those on forums that are actually to do with tabletop games. Especially when you throw around the word 'dumb' three times.

@Ameena: Funnily enough, 2nd edition (before all the tweaking sourcebooks and the non-combat proficiency sourcebooks, NCPs that eventually becoma the skills system of 3.5) was actually relatively simple. The combat round was reduced to a single action, and all the maths were actually table-based (hence whey the AC ran opposite to instinct - it made sense to look up the result on the table that way. Also, the reason your rogue gets so many skill points in 3.5 is because in 2nd edition onwards, the rogue (or thief then) was the only person who could do thief-like things. They got raw percentages that increased with level for accompishing tasks.

@OB Yeah, multi-classing is slightly easier in 3.5, though there is still an experience penalty for seperate classes. However, the stacking of bonuses certainly helps multiclassings/prestige classing considerably!

Anywya, if we want to continue a proper RPG discussion, I would strongly suggest the creative forum.

Once again, welcome raixel! Don';t worry about embarrassing stories, I believe the fact I threw clothes at the first mummy my friend forced me to fight is well documented

[raixel]

Seems this is getting a DnD Edition thread.

Is there an actual dnd discussion thread, not counting the PbP game? If there is can this thread be moved?, as it seems there are quite a few DnD fans on here and I have a feeling this threads gonna get hijacked.

@Lunever: Ya, although 3rd became streamlined on some levels, the giant amount of feats and prestige classes did cause some problems. I can't believe HOW much space in sourcebooks were deditcated to feats and prestige classes. IMHO I think it was a tactic so sell more books to put spells in a warriors book ect.
I do agree with everything you said about 4th (and I know a lot of people who feel the same way). Even in 3rd it was getting bad, with the loss of Habitat/Society and Ecology in the monster manual, and only a paragraph (if you were lucky) about behavior, as well as spending way way too much tine on number crunch. My brother said that WoC's plan is to create an MMORPG that is DnD where you can transfer characters from paper to comp, ect. Don't know if its just a rumor or if its something that is actually in the works.
It might also be because WoC was bought by Hasbro right about the time 4th was announced (i think maybe a year or 2 before, but im not 100% sure) so I think Hasbro, being a 'family game' type company wanted to make it 'easily understood' thus making a game the average joe or mom and dad, and boosting sales.
Ive never really tried Pathfinder. I heard a lot about it though and want to support it. Thanks for lhe links

@Beowuuf: Ya the 3 vs 4 argument is a never ending one. So I put in my 2cents here, then I will say no more about it. I don't know about 2nd being easier than t3rd tho. I remember explaining to my roomie who only ever played 3rd THAC0. "(explains THAC0} OK, so the gnoll has an armor class of 7. You have a THAC0 of 16. What do you need to roll to hit?" "Ummmm... 16?"
And on it goes... 2nd definately was way better as far as fluff in the sourcebooks. I loved how there was a long inrto and a lot of the books were written as if a character in the world was explaining the (whatever) to you. Something i SORELY misssed in 3rd.

[beowuuf]

Lol, then again THAC0 was a sop to try and quickly truncate the table - so the worst of all worlds

(By the way, for those playing at home, the answer is 9)

[Ameena]

Yeah, I don't understand the THAC0 thing at all. I don't really see why people claim to hate 4th edition so much, but then again I've not tried any of the other versions on tabletop, only on the computer, where of course the comp does the calculation stuff for me . Anyway, it's a game, and I find it fun - I don't see that the rest matters .

[raixel]

I don't really see why people claim to hate 4th edition so much, but then again I've not tried any of the other versions on tabletop, only on the computer, .

I do believe that the second part of your sentence answered the 1st...

Anyway, it's a game, and I find it fun - I don't see that the rest matters .

That is, in the end, what really matters. Do you have a large 4th group? I'm just curious in knowing if the majority of your players switched from 3rd to 4th or if you guys all started with 4th. Since I don't know anyone who plays 4th im curious as to what people think who have played both(and prefer 4th).

[beowuuf]

Bah, I like both, so there you go. 4th is perhaps a little too streamlined, but it is streamlined. There's too much clunk to raw 3.5, and anything that makes the DM's job easier and the players have more time to roleplay and have fun can never be a bad thing. The conversation I've had to have about sneak attacks with Ameena in the game perhaps shows things like this!

[Lunever]

And maybe you're interested in this:

http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... =2&t=28497

[zoom]

what I would like to know about 4th edition is whether the new classes like controller? are fun to play or not.
I cannot make head or tails of it.
For monsters it seems like a good idea,
creatures that help others and also the minion 1hps things.
But as a player,
how is it to just help out others to make more damage etc.
A class that shines out to be what? -supporter!
Just initially gave me the creeps.
there are defined roles: Cleric vs. undead , fighter brute force , wizard spells , thief locks and sneak attacks (very roughly)
oh well. I think there are some people in my area who play - some - pnp. Maybe dnd?

[Hajo]

in MMOs there are often people who play "supporter", like a healer who is not really able to fight, but stands back, need even to be protected, but heals the front row fighters. So I think people can enjoy playing this.

[Ameena]

Controller isn't a class, it's a role - 4th edition still has all the same class titles - Fighter, Rogue, Paladin, Wizard, etc, but each of those fits into a "role" to give you an idea of what that class is designed for. Off the top of my head, the four roles are Leader (supports the group directly with buff-effects and stuff), Controller (supports the group indirectly by generally doing stuff to debuff the enemy), Striker (DPS, basically - good damage, less hp), and Defender (tank - takes damage but doesn't necessarily dish it out in huge quantities).
It's also possible to play with pretty much any class combination, since for example a healer isn't essential - everyone has Healing Surges, which are a Minor action to use in combat and restore a quarter of your hp. The number of surges you get is dependent on your health, so you get more if you have a higher hp total. Having someone who can heal is good too, of course...for example the Paladin has "Lay on Hands" which basically is a touch-based power that means the Pally spends a Healng Surge but the target gets the hp - good way to heal a low-hp character for more than they would normally be able to restore themselves.
Another thing about 4th edition is that all the skills are nicely sort of conglomerated together - rather than having stuff like Climb and Swim and Jump (or whatever they are in 3.5 and earlier), you just have plain "Athletics" which covers all of them. Instead of Hide and Sneak you have "Stealth", and so on.

[zoom]

oh ok , I see. Hope I get this right?
So this is more of a concept than a class.
I could imagine a Wizard having some aura that others fear and thus inducing an effect on them(or attack the wizaaard!!),
or the morale thing with fighter.
-->One prominent figure that inspires everyone around.
For Orks or Ogres or some other monsters it would be a guy the smaller monsters (goblins) fear and therefore rush to an attack on the pc´s (which they also fear, but not as much or something)

With this in mind, it could be fun. But I´d say it is not for everyone. Even in WOW the healing thing sucks I guess. Supporter is after all just a supporter. At least you have a good view on the bosses I reckon...

The problem with 3.5 or so was that the boni got insane with higher levels, so it was more suitable for midlevels.
(hey I did not really play it, so this could be wrong and even still the case with 4th.)
4th edition did some nice additons, and as it seems had some bad ommissions, like the habitat of monsters... why do you leave something like that out??!
ok, that´s it for now, hope the moving of the thread did not kill it completely :/

[oh_brother]

I don't like the idea of those healing surges, it seems a bit weird that you can heal yourself. Or is the idea that a seasoned character can just shrug off minor wounds and get on with things? That would be a bit more sensible.

But either way, does it not devalue the cleric class?

[beowuuf]

'Defender' classes usually get a variant of a challenge. Part of that is they get to mark an opponent by attackign them - the opponent gets a -2 to attack if the defender is not part of the attack. YOu can imagine the attacker is either trying to avoid the defender to do anything, so at a penalty, or is simply being intimidated and distracted.

Fighters and paladins also get 'challenges'. These mean, if you mark your opponent, you get to lock them down. If the attacked person does not target the defender, or even tries a five foot step, then the defender class gets to thump them with an attack of opportunity.


Actually, you should be now familiar with the concept of hit points as stamina not 'wounds' from my game. So the idea is that healing surges are linked to your fitness. During combat, you can only spend one surge - your 'second wind'. THeatrically, think of it as a 'man up;' mechanic. The plucky hero is down, the enemy towering over him, and then the hero sucks it up and makes one last round of attacks.

Only healing classes - the cleric primarily - can allow a character during combat to spend more than one surge (and usually clerics get to add more value to a surge too). And instead of it being some very weird 'yes, all your wounds mysterious close up', you can now imagine it that the cleric is being inspirational, or envigorating the fighter with holy zeal, allowing the fightrer to shrug off the wounds for now - at least until a fw minutes when the battle is finished and he can be bandaged up.

Out of combat, if you spend a five minute rest, you get to use healing surges to restore your health. You an imagien it simply resting to recuperate,. but alos the unsaid 'your buddies bandage you up, etc.

It's like running a sprint, and finding that last push, and then maybe getting a five minute break and then being able to do a second sprint.


You only get a set amount of healing surges per day. So it's a better concept - you have your immediate fitness (how long can I fight in a battle before I tire and get stabbed badly) and your general fitness (hopw many battles can I have per day).


Really, it's actually a great system, and rather than devaluing healing classes, it lets them have fun. I have to say, your are playing a cleric in 3.5 very badly. You are on the front row, taking all the blows. Just liek the grak-=grak fight, you fell first - the rest of the party were doomed at that point, as they had no healing worth a damn. AT leats in the DM variant, healing poitons (just like surges) are available to the party to keep going.

Hopefully, by making our games a little bit more like 4th ed/similified 3.5 in concept, alot of the cool things the DM variant allow ius to do - like tons of healing - still make narrative sense, and make the game fun.


In the new 4th edition, you will find alot of the fluff is optional, and the rules set is very balanced. I think the idea is that you should really be changing the fluff to suit your own world, and that the system should be stable enough to fit into different campaign settings. Monster habitat, etc is probably taken out simply because it's up to the DM to decide the world they want to have. Not being able to have an interesting monster with an interesting power engage in the fight, just because of some arbitrary dictate of a book, seems odd. After all, a good DM would just reskin the monster anyway, or declare an X habitat variant.

[Ameena]

(Okay, I typed this bit first, after reading OB's post, so I wouldn't forget what I was gonna say like I normally do, then realised Wuffy had said the same thing, but I'll leave it in anyway) With regard to healing surges and hitpoints and stuff, I think generally in these games it's more a case that hitpoints aren't how badly injureed you are, but how generally tired and stuff from combat you are - when you reach zero hp you're not automatically dead - you get saving throws while you lie on the floor bleeding and stuff .

What's this about "monster habitat"? It's not something I've come across, presumably 'cause I've not tried any of the earlier DnD games at tabletop. Ohh, one other thing about Clerics and healing in general - if everyone can heal themselves, it means the Cleric can have some fun doing other stuff - you can sort of have two different "types" of Cleric - there's the healy-healy-bless-holy-touch-goody-goody Cleric, and the I-smalt-smite-thee-down-oh-vicious-nasty-beasty Cleric, who I suppose is kinda like a Pally with less hp. Actually, even Pallies have two sort of builds - the holy-wrath-smiter Pally, and the big-tough-tank-defender-nothing-gets-past-me Pally. Every class has at least two build types to choose from, which you pick at the start and which can give you bonuses. For example, the Rogue ones are Artful Dodger and Brutal Scoundrel - Dodger, I think, gives you bonuses to stuff based off your Charisma mod, I think, so you can kind of dart around and avoid getting hit most of the time, and I think use powers than confound foes and trip them up rather than directly ganking them. Scoundrel (the one I go with) lets you add your Str mod in damage to some powers - so basically that's the nasty vicious backstabber type . Those are the two that come in the first Player's Handbook, anyway - there are others that came with later books (Ruthless Ruffian, errm, something along the lines of "Shadowy Sneak", and others).
Ooh, btw Zoom - Orks are from Warhammer 40k. I think you mean "Orcs" .

[oh_brother]

Okay, that makes more sense.

Ohh, one other thing about Clerics and healing in general - if everyone can heal themselves, it means the Cleric can have some fun doing other stuff - you can sort of have two different "types" of Cleric - there's the healy-healy-bless-holy-touch-goody-goody Cleric, and the I-smalt-smite-thee-down-oh-vicious-nasty-beasty Cleric

Yes, I don't think I ever played a cleric in pnp DnD, but in BG it was a bit of a pain having to store a bunch of boring healing spells instead of the more fun ones. But NWN2 (and I assume some version of 3.5) solved this by allowing a cleric to convert any spells into healing ones automatically, so you could prepare all the fun ones and only exchange them if and when someone needed healing.

[beowuuf]

Yeah, 3.5 lets you convert on the fly, but still, it'#s a coversion. The party get into one tough fight, and your whole fun buffs and cool spells for the day are drained into party healing.

In 4th edition, you'll find some of the cleric powers heal in additiona to being strike powers. Again, the idea of the ability to call down your god's wrath also energising your firiends. And the idea of the cleric getting to do things, not just sitting on the back row healing then being sad

THogu hthe bad news is, clerics aren't as broekn and kick as as 3.5....seriously, you can tank and heal and turn in 3.5, and that's before the funky spells!

[Ameena]

I think the spell system in 4th is very different from the previous versions, going by my memories of stuff like BG (though not NWN as I never took a caster class in that, as either my main or my henchman, so I don't know how it works for 3.5 which is what NWN uses). Don't you have to memorise spells per day and then have to re-mem them (during a long rest) once you've spent them? Or is that only Wizzies who have to actually memorise them, whereas Cleric spells are granted by their chosen deity, though the mechanical effect is the same in that you only get a certain number of spells per day?
In 4th edition you have Powers - everyone has them, that's the term used for any kind of (usually attack-based) skill that tends to be used in combat - there are different types of powers, and to use each one is either a Standard, Move, or Minor action (you get one of each action type per round, though you don't have to use them all).
At-Will powers can be used every turn - at level one I think you get two of them, and they tend to be a basic kind of attack (you get to choose the ones you want from a selection when you create your character) which usually does standard weapon damage with possibly only a small bonus. For example, my Rogue's two At-Will powers are one that does basic damage plus my Dex and Charisma mod (and can be used with either a ranged or melée weapon), while the other one is only basic weapon damage plus Dex mod (and is melée only), but goes vs. Reflex rather than AC so if you're fighting stuff like zombies, which are fairly obviously slow, you probably stand a better chance to hit them with the Reflex attack. Spells like Magic Missile are At-Will powers (the roll is a d20 plus your Int mod vs. the target's Reflexes, and does 2d4 + Int mod damage).
The next type of power is Encounter powers - these can only be used once per encounter (generally, therefore, once per fight), and refresh after a short rest. They tend to do more damage than At-Will powers (for example, roll two lots of wep damage instead of just one) and can also have an extra effect (like the level three Rogue power "Topple Over", which does normal wep damage,plus Str mod if you're a Brutal Scoundrel, but also knocks the target prone). A lot of AE effect powers are encounter powers (like the Wizzy spell Burning Hands, or the Dragonborn racial power Dragon Breath).
Then there are Daily powers. Obviously, these can be used only once a day (ie they only refresh once you've taken an extended rest - six or eight hours, I forget which). They tend to do a much larger amount of damage (often 3x your usual damage roll) and usually have another useful effect - as an example, the level one Rogue Daily power Trick Strike does 3x wep damage (plus Dex mod - most Rogue powers tend to add this in damage, hence Dex being probably the most desirable stat to have as a Rogue, followed closely by Str and/or Cha) and also lets you slide the target one square (that is, force it to move a single square in any direction), and you can also then slide the target one square every time you subsequently hit it, lasting till the end of the encounter. It's also a melee or ranged power so you can pew something witha crossbow and still have this effect . A lot of Daily powers tend to have an effect even if you miss with the attack roll - this usually tends to be that you deal half damage and nothing else.
Finally, there are Utility powers. Within the category of a power being designated as a Utility power, it still falls under the effect of being either an At-Will, Encounter, or Daily. Utility powers tend to help you out rather than being a direct attack. There's a very useful Rogue Utility power called Adaptable Flanker (which I think is an At-Will but it may be an Encounter - I can't remember now) - it's a Minor action to use and it basically means that as long as both you and an ally are adjacent to a target (say, one of you is in front of it and the other is to the side), you can declare yourself to be flanking it. So all you need to do is get yourself over to a target which has one of your friends already beside it, and BS the crap out of it . Second Wind is also considered a Utility power, but everyone has this from level one for free - it's an Encounter power which is a Standard action to use and it lets you spend a Healing Surge (which is usually a Minor action) and gives you +2 to all defenses till the start of your next turn. It's probably the kind of "oooh, shit" power, the one you use when things are starting to look a bit bad for your character .
In case you're wondering, no, I don't know all this (power effects and so on) off by heart - I have been looking at the nearby character sheets I have for our game of DnD my dad has been running for the last couple of weeks .
If anyone is interested, there is a 4th edition character builder prog you can download from the DnD official website (dndinsider.com) for free - the demo (ie free) version lets you level characters up to level 3 and has all info/races/classes/powers etc from all DnD 4th edition publications up till now, so if you wanted to have a poke around and see what other stuff 4th edition characters can do, it's a handy little tool to have .

[beowuuf]

There is also a set of quickstart rules explaining all the basic mechanics now.

[Ameena]

There is? Ooh, missed that, lol.
A DM screen (cardboard thing to stop players seeing the DM's notes or whatever) has all the basics on it too, I think - explanations of what various rules mean (Prone, Slide, Flanking, that kind of thing), and stuff about setting DCs and stuff. I haven't had a proper look at it yet but I will do at some point.

[beowuuf]

Indeed it does - the best parts are on the fly damage for improvised weapons, and the correct DC ranges for level and for tasks. Cool your dad has taken on DMing for you lot! You still using your Kobold rogue?

[Ameena]

In my dad's game, no, I'm not a kobold - he's only letting us use stuff from PH1, so I'm a Dragonborn instead .
If I ever DM a game (and I may do, at some point), I'm gonna allow probably most races - I think there are a couple who get some slightly owerpowered-sounding...well, powers (like the Drow, I think), which I may disallow, but apart from that I'm not really fussed .

[beowuuf]

I told you that you should DM Darn, have you played Kobold Hall yet from the DMG? I had very vague plans about running it here at some point in the future, should a chance ever allow.

[Ameena]

DMG? What's that? Ohh wait, "Dungeon Master's Guide", yes? I haven't read that book yet. Maybe I should at some point...
Is Kobold Hall a pre-built adventure or something then? The campaign we're playing atm (with my dad) is a pre-built one. He ordered it online, presumably from the official site. I dunno the exact name of the campaign but it'll involve the name "Shadowfell".
I think I like my kobold better than the Dragonborn - no funky breath attack but generally stats seem to be higher - my kob has great Perception, plus Stealth and Thievery of 12 (Dragonborn only has 9 - Kobs get an innate +4 or something). And Shifty is quite a nice power (racial, at-will) - it's a Minor to use so I can basically Shift twice per turn if I want to .

[beowuuf]

ah, Keep of the Shadowfell? It's actually the free download on the site along with the quickstart rules (unless they've released a different one). Apparently its quite hard. The guys at Penny arcade/PvP actually played through parts of that with some of the designers at WotC. They're pretty vulgar at times, but it's cool to hear someone who actively didn't like RPGs, and an oldschool player play 4th edition for the first time. The RPG disliker now runs his own games

Don't be so down on your dragonborn, he's usually betetr at tanky stuff. Plus if you get hiom high enough - they can fly