DM Source Code

[Rasmus]

Sorry gamebit.. But I just have to quote this..

Re: From one of the original creators:
...but I may be the only person in the world that still has the original C and assembly source code.

*I just can't stop smiling after reading that scentence*

[zoom]

lets hope he has a backup somewhere

[Octopuss]

Sorry gamebit.. But I just have to quote this..

Re: From one of the original creators:
...but I may be the only person in the world that still has the original C and assembly source code.

*I just can't stop smiling after reading that scentence*

They should release it into the public somehow

[Gambit37]

They should release it into the public somehow

Like I said above, DON'T EVEN GO THERE! It's an ancient request that everyone *always* makes, and it's *never* going to be released, so please quit suggesting or asking.

[Octopuss]

I am not requesting anything anywhere, I don't even know how to code, so...

The question is WHY not though. 20 years old stuff...

[zoom]

why will it be never released? Good question. But irrelevant for us.
What I find to be a really problematic statement is your last sentence, Octopuss:
That "it" is merely 20 years old and therefore should be given away.
If I were them, because of that I would certainly not give it to you!

- after all, it could still be worth something. Wizardry series has been re-launched in Japan , for instance.

--> As I have it in memory the original staff of DM just don´t want to be concerned with it anymore.
So we, as a community have to accept that.

I really do not know of any former game company
that released any of their source code to the public or a community like this.

[Gambit37]

ID software released the Doom code, Raven released Hexen code, 3dRealms released Duke3D code. They didn't do it to "be nice" to the community, they did it because it keeps the game fresh and ultimately results in more sales of older games. FTL went out of business a long time ago and were never able to cash in on the idea of "modding" their games or profiting from releasing code.

Anyway, regardless of that, I think there's basically two schools of thought on releasing code -- and if you believe in the value of your intellectual property, you'll be in the camp who believe in not releasing it. I'm pretty sure that's where FTL would have stood on the issue. Anyway, while Doug did say that he still has the code, he also told me in a private email he has no idea where it is!

[zoom]

ah ok I see. Gambit, if anyone were to contact them/him it would be you!

[Sophia]

I think there's basically two schools of thought on releasing code -- and if you believe in the value of your intellectual property, you'll be in the camp who believe in not releasing it.

Open source is in no way incompatible with belief in the value of intellectual property. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that releasing the code implies giving up all claim to the copyright over the code and all control over how the code is used. In practice, while it's inevitably true that it does invite misuse more than not releasing any code, to use this as an argument against open source is the same as saying that artists should never display works for fear that they'll be used without permission.

[Rasmus]

to use this as an argument against open source is the same as saying that artists should never display works for fear that they'll be used without permission.

I would say that it is more like not telling anyone how they painted it.. We can always play the game, just as anyone can watch a painting and admire it..

But I would say that some of the dm mystic will dissapere if we got our hands on the sourcecode. If anyone programmed a modified version of the dm sourcecode without anyone knowing it, then the original dm woun't seem as special. But then again, it was a long time ago dm was programmed, and alot of improved versions has been made since, even if dm still has the best feeling

[Gambit37]

@Sophia: I'm not mistaken. I wasn't talking about open source, I made a generalisation about the commercial value inherent in source code, and what might drive a company to release it or not (regardless of licensing issues).

[Sophia]

I would say that it is more like not telling anyone how they painted it.. We can always play the game, just as anyone can watch a painting and admire it..

No, it's not quite that. Having a copy of the painting in hand you can do more to modify it than a compiled game executable because paintings are more "human readable," as it were. Perhaps I should have said sell prints, print copies in magazines, scan a version online accessible by Google image search and such things. That is, a form that is more easily "copied and pasted," and more prone to copyright-ignoring misuse, like a painting. Or something. Anyway, there is no point in messing around with the analogy if you see the point I'm trying to make.

But I would say that some of the dm mystic will dissapere if we got our hands on the sourcecode.

This is true. CSBwin has been bad enough for us in this regard.

I'm not mistaken.

You said "if you believe in the value of your intellectual property, you'll be in the camp who believe in not releasing it." This is a false statement. Numerous people who believe in the value of their intellectual property also believe in releasing their source code. You are correct about there being commercial value in the code, and such, and I wasn't trying to say your entire view on the matter is mistaken-- I can't because I don't truthfully know it-- but that one statement, as written, was incorrect.

[Gambit37]

For goodness sake, stop being such a pedant. I missed out one word; you know exactly what I was talking about!

[Sophia]

Hey, I'm not being a pedant! I seriously didn't know what you meant. There are people who actually think that releasing your source code means that you're giving up all claim of ownership to the code and any rights to keep people from doing bad stuff with it. I'm not accusing you of being one of those people, but, I didn't know, and I was trying to clear up something. That's all.

[Adamo]

I`m pretty sure Doug received dozens - if not hundreds - of emails from people asking to release DM/DM2 sorcecode (it`s not that hard to get somebody`s private email if you`re determined and patient). If they didn`t do it till now, they will never do it. So talking about that is a pure waste of time.

[Gambit37]

When I first contacted Doug, his email wasn't well known. Now it's easy to find it all over the web. I didn't publish though, he published it himself, so he must be open to receiving such emails...!

[zoom]

So let´s all write him an email

seriously, sending an email is not really bound to do anything.
He has to read it , and answer then. Maybe he just plain ignores it(all emails he does not know?)

If at all, there should be an official email or something from someone he knows who updates diplomatic issues on each other.
(Hey we are a community and did this and that. As you know we still like to have the code kiind regards , we would like to have a clear statement or something and so on..)

MAybe Adamo is right and we should forget all about it

[beowuuf]

????

[Rasmus]

Maybe we can ask them about the Nexus sourcecode?

No seriously, I am with you gamebit.. Have they said no once, why should we continue asking them about the sourcecode, let us respect thier descition!

[isamuu]

Out of curiosity, if Paul, Sophia, George, etc did not have the original DM source code, how were they able to recreate a clone of Dungeon Master using their programming skills? That's a bit impressive I must say.

[beowuuf]

I could be wrong, I think Paul dissembled the machine code for atari to covert for PC, Sophia dissembled Paul's code, and George created an engine by feel, adding spaded values from people like Gambit.

[Bit]

Usually programmers don't release their source because they can be sure to receive a thousand requests then.
A lot of them would also mock a lot about the one or other programming technic.
I agree with Rasmus that the Nexus could be interesting though, but not the basics anymore.
Think Paul did solve that pretty good. Maybe the add-ons for the Amiga would be interesting, because no one still managed to make a disassembly from it. I once took a look into the frozen memory of UAE and it looked pretty devastating. It seemed as if it keeps just some of the current needed functions alive.
After all - I wouldn't disturb them. They always can login here again and help with whatever is needed if they want.

[Twiggy]

ID software released the Doom code, Raven released Hexen code, 3dRealms released Duke3D code. They didn't do it to "be nice" to the community, they did it because it keeps the game fresh and ultimately results in more sales of older games. FTL went out of business a long time ago and were never able to cash in on the idea of "modding" their games or profiting from releasing code.

Wish they had of done that for Black Crypt. Could be editing up some crypts too!

[Adamo]

On the other side, it`s quite interesting what Bruce Webster said about the SunDog resurrection:

http://sundog.sourceforge.net/

(...)I've decided on doing an open source version for several reasons:
I have been fascinated by the open source movements and philosophies and want to see first-hand how it works.
The commercial game market is brutal, with even great games having a relatively short lifecycle.(...)

[Bit]

Most open source projects have a short lifecycle too.
I've seen so much announcements of projects.
Most die because of real-life issues.

[Paul Stevens]

Open Source Sundog?

Last update 2005?

I hope Mr. Webster is a young man.

[Gambit37]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Webster
No dates in that doc, but I'm guessing if he graduated with a BSCS in '78, he's probably in his late 50s-mid 60s.

According to this blog post, (http://brucefwebster.com/2011/03/02/cal ... ndog-fans/) Wayne Holder (yes, him!) wants to remake SunDog (not open source) -- so that will be a different thing from the open source version mentioned above. Probably he wants to sell it as an iOS app or something.

What I'd love to see would be an official DM for smartphones, with some modern upgrades to the graphics, etc. I wonder why he wants to do SunDog rather than DM?

[Adamo]

I wonder why he wants to do SunDog rather than DM?

Maybe Wayne wants to try the smaller project first. Then go with something bigger. If that`s so, I would gladly help him with the Sundog project!
From what I saw in the blog, he wants Sundog fans to give ideas, graphics and space structures for a "new" (I guess heavily modified, but still based on the original engine) game.
I guess it wouldn`t be hard to make a portable (cellphones) version of DM2 with the source code.

[Bit]

I just hope that they don't have this idea - wouldn't it be the end of that page ?

[Adamo]

I don`t think so. Our community would be extremally valuable for helping with that (hypo) project. I mean, who would have better ideas other than the hard-die fans? Plus, we know the general game structure.