Learning 3D?

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Gambit37
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Learning 3D?

Post by Gambit37 »

I'm taking the plunge and next year will be making a real effort to learn 3D modelling.

I can learn the basics on a free tool such as Blender. Is that a good way to start? Or would I be better off using a "trial" of one of the more industry standard packages such as Maya, 3DS Max or Cinema 4D?

I don't want to learn a package that might not give me relevant skills as this is part of my new long term plan to get into a career in digital 3D production. Yep, I finally realised where I want to invest my time, and building websites is not it. :D
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by PetriH »

I would steer away from 3dsmax and the like and go with more modern tools such as Silo, Modo, Mudbox, Z-Brush and Softimage, maybe in that order.
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by Gambit37 »

Really? I thought everyone used Maya these days?!
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by linflas »

i'd recommend you to go for Zbrush and see if you need somerthing more professional like Maya.
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by PetriH »

Gambit37 wrote:Really? I thought everyone used Maya these days?!
Maya is good for animation and widely used for example in the game industry but it's a big package and therefore I wouldn't maybe recommend it to start with. 3DSMax has an ancient history so it's user interface is very messy (IMHO) and not very artist friendly. On the other hand Silo which is purely a modeling tool has a very slick UI, and therefore should be much easier to learn. Modo is also quite new from the makers of Lightwave, Lightwave being famous for it's good modeling tools at its time. Mudbox and ZBrush in particular are used a lot for character modeling and other digital sculpting works for games and movies. You might also want to take a look at Sculptris if you're interested in sculpting. So it all depends really on what you're modeling...

That said, I'm not a professional 3D graphics artist myself but I know many collegues and friends who are...
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by Gambit37 »

Thanks for the input guys.

The way I see it is that there are two things to consider:
1) Learning general principles of 3d modelling and everything that entails (I know some of this already)
2) Learning the most appropriate specific software that is used in the industry.

I guess the real issue is that I don't know which industry I want to ultimately move into. Within 5 years I want to be good enough to apply for work within either game design, TV special effects production, or something along those lines. So I want to learn the most appropriate skill set for either of those options.

I'll be returning to full time work soon (and that will initially still be in web design since that's my main skillset) -- but that's just short term while I retrain. Ideally I'm looking to get a short-term web job that's just 3 or 4 days a week. This would give me enough time to learn 3D in my extra time, without it taking up all my evenings and weekends too.

I know it's not going to be easy but it's what I want to do and so I'm going to throw myself into it as best I can. I just want to make sure I start off learning the right stuff! :-)
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

I'm in the same boat Gambit. Not sure where to go from here. I'm retired, have the time to do something, want to learn 3D, can't see it being real hard if the programs operate in a similar fashion to GIMP, kinda teaches as you go. So I'll be paying attention to what you do. I was thinking on taking coarses, just not sure what to do. Just have to take it one pixel at a time for now.
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by Bit »

When I see what lies ahead in the function prototypes of DirectX 11, then 3D-modelling will come to a new dimension, Rasmus can probably say more about that. Be wise Gambit, and look for the newest stuff and what comes next.
There are zillions of 3D-Artists, just a few of them have the connections to really earn money with it, the rest gets flooded by requests of hobby-projects...
I bet, what's needed here is some kind of consulting that keeps people/companies who work with 3D up-to-date.
I know you just start with it, but your stomach will force you to be fast with it.

@Chaos-Shaman:
That one is easy to use and easy to read, and you'll know all about the most important terms:
http://www.anim8or.com/
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

thanks Bit, I'll have a go at it. How many 3D DM styled games in progress? What are the chances of any of them getting completed? Who has the capability to build the engine for the graphics, cause that sure isn't me, heh, I believe Sophia works in that area, but it really is how well we all collaborate. It's all for fun.
Did anyone check out the sketchup of 3D DM level one?
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by cowsmanaut »

Gambit, I'll teach you some Maya if you like. Just need to work out a way to send you instructional videos that are rather large. Youtube is also a great resource, many free video tutorials hanging out there.. though one issue is that many people giving those out for free , often have little skill with the tools and sometimes teach bad habits. What's most important is to develop good habits, and to treat the software as simply a tool. Learning maya, XSI, or Max.. or even lightwave, mode, animation master, blender, rhino, etc.. they often have most of the same tools, just a matter of knowing where they are hiding in the interface. You'll never know which software you'll end up working with in a future job.. so even if you get comfortable with one, you may be hired to work on an entirely different one and be given a little time to catch up with it and learn their process. At least that's how it runs here. If someone of equal skill but is familiar with the software that company uses then sure, they will be hired over you.. but otherwise, they are looking for artistic skill in animation, or lighting, or texturing, or modeling.. that's it. if you can beat out the competition, they'll want to hire you instead. Your skills with photoshop will serve you well texturing items in 3D.
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by Gambit37 »

As usual, I've simply had no time to learn anything new recently. Getting really frustrated to be honest. How do people manage to have a full life and also do their own stuff in their own time? I must have lost that ability somewhere...!

Anyway, this morning I've been trying to get to grips with the popular Blender. But it's driving me nuts. The control mechanism is terrible and doesn't seem to match any conventions for other similar software. The mouse does crazy unintuitive stuff, and the interface is really awful. Has anyone got any tips on how to get to grips with Blender?
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by linflas »

Sorry, i've never got interested in Blender. At the moment, i play a bit with Sculptris. You may probably love that one :) but it's not a professional tool.
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

yeah, just grabbed a few more programs like blender. i noticed nobody mentioned CS5 masters collection. told that it had a fairly complete package, and can purchase an already registered copy for $350 . not sure if that's worth it. zbrush is around $700 i think. does anyone have what are good prices on this software? want to purchase wisely, so any help would be appreciated greatly.
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by Sophia »

A lot of times you can usually get some pretty deep educational discounts if you tell them you're a student. Most places you can order from online don't check that you have a student id or something. The version you get is usually a bit stripped down from the "pro" version, but if the point is to learn the software... well, then you're being honest, really! :P
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by cowsmanaut »

you can have an educational version of maya for 3 years, simply by showing you've entered into a course that uses the software, otherwise you just get 30 days as demo.

Adobe has 80% off for all their products for show of entry into ANY course.. as long as it's for a recognized school.

As for blender, it doesn't match with any other software that uses 3D, it's powerful, but it's not intuitive at all. There are a series of instructional videos on using it though. So it is possible to learn. Just need the time.
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by Gambit37 »

cowsmanaut wrote:As for blender, it doesn't match with any other software that uses 3D, it's powerful, but it's not intuitive at all. There are a series of instructional videos on using it though. So it is possible to learn. Just need the time.
Indeed. I was looking at Blender purely because it's a) free and b) there's a lot of hobbyist game related things that people use it for that I haven't seen done in other tools. But I just can't get on with its interface. It must be the first tool I've used where the left mouse button doesn't actually select anything, which is really counter-intuitive. Kinda nuts.
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by cowsmanaut »

yeah, it's interface was developed for making 3D games on the neo-geo. As a tool, it was developed in house, tool by tool, with only a team of 2D artists to test it out. When they shut shop and had this tool still, they made it "free range" so to speak.. left the code for others to use with the understanding that it remain free. Since then it's grown a lot, but most of that growth is in the last few years. What i don't get is why no one ever reworked the interface... at least allowing for an alternate, more familiar method of control. I mean a control scheme is just that.. a sort of shell that sits on top of the overall engine. Other 3D apps show that you can have more than one control scheme.. if only they did that, it would be adopted by everyone in a heartbeat.
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by zoom »

maybe some game engines are worth a look? There comes an editor and there are hobbyists.
I heard some architects start to use these for visualising buildings over standard 3d engine programmes like Max, Maja or Softimage.
Game engines are worth much money(billions?) and do the job allegedly better than those architect´s softwares (reason being games are highly sought after and much more work can be put in in comparison)

That being said, I have no real clue about any of those (unreal engine? cryengine).


Then: 3d is a very large field. I am no expert. For some 3d - effects like matte painting you do not need 3d programs(as you surely know).
If you are good at texturing then you could test uvw - mapping maybe you love it?
I think the key word here is regular basis. Each Saturday you use up 2 Hours to do something 3d ish.. OF course if you hate blenders UI and unintuitiveness (does not seem too good ) then do use something else.
If you say you want to apply for work within either game design, TV special effects production, or something along those lines. and learn appropriate skill sets.

1. You cannot do a whole TV spot on your own. As noted somewhere, by cows, there are specialists :
modelers, texturers etc. A modeler knows how to texture, but will probably not do that.
Therefore you should get an overview of all areas 3dish and then concentrate on e.g. textures.
This means photographing of surfaces of all sorts (old, scratched and blotted paint on used vehicles)
minute detail of optimal usage of space; some working with alpha maps and so on,as said I am no expert.
painting 3d is another field.
then you must know what effects animation will have on the textures(stretching or squashing and results on eg armpits)
if the model will be animated at all.
In that regard: What limits does the game(or ...) ultimately have? Sometimes you can only use very rough models and comparatively rough textures (World of Warcraft)
(for high end movies like the lord of the rings, maps have 4000px X 4000px and more, so it depends )

with textures, as a texturers you know how 3d models should be modeled (where to cut it open) - in short what works and if not why not and how to improve it.
talk to modeler for improvement or problematic areas . and so forth.

As an animator, you have to get a grasp on how things behave in the real world. A bowling ball will bounce differently on the ground compared to a sponge ..

anyways: Games tend to have somewhat restrictions. or they are getting insanely complex and you need many people( enter some new game here like Dragon Age 2 ).
In a smaller Game, like Tower Defense with 3d graphics used for flash or browsergame one person can probably do the complete job,
on 400 men + games you tend to do a very specific job over and over again (eg. only modelling , because you know how to do that and bcs your fast etc)

If there is some bullsh*t I wrote here, please correct me :)

So tell us, what you specifically want to do or what particular plan you have.( the start you already made, etch it out some more)

First I want to learn how to ..
If you say learn 3d then this is too complex.
more specific and small parts can be helped more easily.
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by zoom »

double post:
Ogre 3d, could be interesting..
http://www.ogre3d.org/
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by cowsmanaut »

first, using a game engine does not mean you can create new 3D objects with it. Typically the editors are for placement of already existing 3D objects. My understanding is that Gambit wants to learn to create 3D objects, not simply move them around.

Second, matte painters these days often know how to use 3D apps because a number of the movies require a certain 3D movement. This is because there are now an increasing number of movies using the 3D glasses. or more complex movements that involve the fake part of the environment to move in perspective. All this is done by painting on simplistic 3D shapes. It used to be very different.. but the industry and the customer have changed.. when we go to see a movie we expect more, and as I said, a lot of 3D movies are coming.

Ogre 3D is an engine, essentially an empty game, it won't create anything. However it is a great engine, at least one commercial game was made with it "Torchlight" .. just you need to do a fair bit of work to do anything with it, it needs to be fully scripted and all items made etc to ge anything out of it.
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

Sophia wrote:A lot of times you can usually get some pretty deep educational discounts if you tell them you're a student. Most places you can order from online don't check that you have a student id or something. The version you get is usually a bit stripped down from the "pro" version, but if the point is to learn the software... well, then you're being honest, really! :P
yeah, had a look into that, the original cost was $1800, but with student discount it was $800, but if you buy a registered copy, you can get it for $350. this is CS5 Master Collection. it's just the files, no box or specials. have not found any other offers better.
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

cowsmanaut wrote:you can have an educational version of maya for 3 years, simply by showing you've entered into a course that uses the software, otherwise you just get 30 days as demo.

Adobe has 80% off for all their products for show of entry into ANY course.. as long as it's for a recognized school.

As for blender, it doesn't match with any other software that uses 3D, it's powerful, but it's not intuitive at all. There are a series of instructional videos on using it though. So it is possible to learn. Just need the time.
i'll have a look at it, see what everyone else sees, get the feel. time, yeah :)
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by Gambit37 »

To answer zoom's question about what I want to do: short term, I want to be able to learn enough basics to create convincing realistic wallsets for DSB/RTC using correct lighting and proper architectural embellishments (not just the flat unconvincing stuff generated by Whack or RTCWM).
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by alandale »

What version of Blender did you try? Blender 2.5 (currently in Beta) features a massive redesign of the UI.
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by Gambit37 »

2.49 -- some of the scripts and tools I wanted to try out only work in 2.49. Interesting about 2.5 though -- is the redesign any better? Is it more intuitive?
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

is it worth taking courses or can it be learned through tutorials. online courses are evertywhere, but not sure if it's really benificial or necessary. so many programs, probably each having their strong points. damn, it's a wheel of guesses.
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by cowsmanaut »

redesign as in, it's more like autodesk based software (ie industry standard) max, maya, and XSI all share a similar interface when manipulating geometry and navigating the viewport. not just the layout of buttons or menus...because what an icon looks like or where a menu is doesn't make a huge impact on how us use the software, but how you navigate the viewport in 3D, and how you control vertex, edge, face and object nodes are highly important.
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by alandale »

Gambit37 wrote:2.49 -- some of the scripts and tools I wanted to try out only work in 2.49. Interesting about 2.5 though -- is the redesign any better? Is it more intuitive?
I keep meaning to learn Blender myself, but haven't actually gotten around to it yet. It's high on my list of things to do "later", but later never seems to be now. What I've read about the changes sounds good. They're trying to make it more user friendly and consistent. Hopefully it will match up more closely to other 3D packages like Maya.
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

just was playing with blender a bit. lots of sub menu mode key commands, loads of memory involved, a challenge, and there is nothing better than a challenge. a few good tutorials on manipulation, some strong rope, a sled, 8 dogs, grapple, spear, polar bear skins, flint, bone hooks and whale blubber can't do. of course, you can buy their tutorials, hehehehe, the catch, the fish they catch. found it a bit confusing, but once you learn how to target the objects and work the menus, they all have explanations. there must be easier ones to learn from the start though.
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Re: Learning 3D?

Post by cowsmanaut »

after some quick research, (you got me looking Alandale), they have a maya set up for Blender now, to make it look and act VERY similar to Maya.. which may make me try it again!
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