Not fed up

[slide]

OK, I decided to give this 'classic' a try but find it impossible and just annoyingly frustrating at this point. I got to what I suppose is level 6 or close. It starts with a room full of alcoves I need to leave stuff in like a blue gem and a bow. Then a door opens to more riddle / puzzle sorts of rooms. After some fast dashing through blue curtains & some skels & other stuff like testing strength, I end up at a long hallway where I get hit by fireballs from floating eyes.

The problem is I can't see the eyes and they see me. So I"m hit w/o even seeing what is shooting at me. Tough to defend. Doubly worse, one hit and either my entire party is dead or some of them.

I found a way to bypass some of the hall (I guess) by blue curtain travel. That helped some but I still had to try about 3 times to leave the area I was dumped in due to a eye which killed my entire party instantly.

So I made it to descend to another level figuring to return here when stronger. My party is all at least craftsmen fighters & one is an expert in being a wiz. The others are one below expert in one more more things. My party isn't, I'd think, weak being at L6 with, what, 15 levels?

So I enter a huge room with a green floater which I can handle only to find ANOTHER *#&*#& room with me being hit by fireballs from every direction where I can't see them launched or what's launching them. One hit and my party is all dead.

Is there some way to rebalance this game so I can go on? I've played the same area what feels like dozens of times and it doesn't seem winable at the current balance where one fireball I can't even see coming wipes out my entire party at one shot. I"m playing something called RTC on a PC. Was the original game balanced this way? If so, I can't believe it sold more than 100 copies.

Suggestions on re-balancing? This is just boring.

[Gambit37]

Welcome to the forums

RTC is a modern day clone of DM and arguably much harder than the original game. Monster AI is different and they are generally smarter than in the original version. The Wizard's Eyes (floating eyes) are poorly balanced in RTC and are indeed much too powerful for this level if you're not already familiar with the game.

You might prefer to try the original PC version under DOSBOX for a more authentic game play experience if you're finding the RTC version too tough?

By the way, that second room you entered lower down that also has fireballs... those don't come from the flying eyes, but a mechanism. You can work out where they are coming from by watching carefully...

[linflas]

Hi slide and welcome !
Use DES VEN against Flying Eyes, much efficient in RTC than in original DM.

[beowuuf]

Yeah, the current incarnation of RTC is unforgiving in terms of wizard eyes because of the sight distance. Save often, and fire spells!

[Joramun]

You should play the DSB version of DM.

1/ It's now bugfree (probably).
2/ It's more a little bit more difficult than the original DM, but still balanced.
3/ Difficulty comes from the fact monsters are much smarter in their behavior, not because they have overpowered sight/shoot range.
4/ Fights are better than in RTC, because instead of being slow with high-health to compensate, monsters are fighting back, are faster, and sometime very nasty.

[beowuuf]

Also, the fireball level is only one fireball flying around a fixed track. If RTC hadn't unblanaced the wizard eye and lightning damage, I don't imagine it would have been as annoying.

[oh_brother]

I think the version that is the closest to the original game in terms of balance, etc. is Chaos Strikes Back for Windows (CSBWin). Since it is exactly the same as the original release on the Atari ST it should be fine even if you have never played the game before.

Than again I know it would be frustrating to have to start again...

[Jan]

Welcome to the forums, Mr. Slide! And don't be fed up - I know the Eyes can be irritating in RTC, but don't worry, there

Spoiler

's only one more level

with them in DM. And at that time, you'll be much stronger, and there'll be other creatures to worry about.

As for the flying fireballs in the large hall, there's a

Spoiler

fireball launcher and a set ot teleporters turning them around the hall. Search for a switch close to the launcher to turn the first teleoprter off

.

Too many advices for one fed up Slide, huh?

[zoom]

Slide, maybe you should level up your party in the screamer training room.. to some this is boring, but could do the trick, since RTC is apparently unbalanced concerning Wizard Eyes.
At least you won´t lose your current progress in-game and have not to start over :O

I personally did not play RTC very often, so I do not know whether a FIRESHIELD (or a couple of ´em) would be of any help with your problems?

[Trantor]

Yes, the Fireshield spell Ful Bro Neta will help. Cast it a few times.
But as many others said, this is a problem of RTC. In the original version, Wizard Eyes (and other spellcasting monsters) do a lot less damage. Furthermore, projectiles - including fireballs, poison bolts and so on - fly much faster in RTC, so it's a lot harder to dodge those things.

Oh, and welcome to the forums! I hope you don't throw in the towel over this issue and still have some fun playing DM.

[slide]

Oh, thanks all for confirming my belief that this isn't what folks 25 years ago on ST's were experiencing. Let me see if I can take your comments in general and reply here.

The problem isn't that I can't kill the eyes. It's that I don't see them to kill. The few I can see, like when they are behind a door, fall rather easily. What occurs is that I'm in the hallway, I see the fireball coming at my group, I back pedal as fast as I can but it's either not fast enough or I don't have time to get to a right angle juke to hide there before I'm hit. My party suffers a 50% chance of at least one death which to me means a do over as I've noted loss of abilities upon going to a VI terminal. IF I could see them, I could fight them, but I can't even throw a counter fireball at something I can't detect.

My party's HP runs from a low of 175 to well over 200. I spent a good deal of time with the worms (?) and the angry cabbages getting my crew up to these levels. They are all Craftsman fighters or more. I got this 'training' because I was wiped out time after time on L5 by the mushrooms and/or the flying snakes. I sure hope every level doesn't demand hours of training like L5 did.

I"m also gratified to learn that my version is faster than the original. I read in some fora (lurking) that the way to handle things like the worms is to get and stay behind them. I can avoid taking any worm / cabbage / etc. hits by back / side / slide / hit / slide / hit sorts of routines, but I can't get behind and stay behind them. Others like the rock things are easy as are the purple guys with clubs.

OK. Since nobody has said that there is something in the long eye infested hallway I need to get (like a key), I'm happy to proceed to L8 and return when I'm up above 300 or 400 hp if I ever get there. I read one reply that the fireballs on L8 (it's a big room with some pits, green floaters, and thieves) are on a track. Is that right? I don't see how it can be as I got hit in place A and then in B and then in C none of which could possibly be lined up. Since these croak my party even faster than the eyes, I need to turn this off, but am confused how to. I read about a lever, but I can't seem to get more than a few steps w/o being killed. I'm happy to hear a spoiler on this one if someone is willing. Thanks.

I tried the fire shield (x,4,5,4). My crew can only throw a series of = level ones of these but I figure since all four can do a =, that's good, but if it makes a difference in surviving the fireballs, I can't detect it. I also really do NOT wish to restart in the Dosbox. Maybe if I hadn't 'trained' all those hours or if I do, I'll take some time off & then return. At this point, if I can turn the fireballs off at the big room, I think I'll try onward.

Thanks to all.

[beowuuf]

Hello again!

It's a hell of a track. The trick is to hug a wall, spot a blue haze, and avoid any adjacent square. The single fireball is entering the haze and turning 90 degrees, and thus the track is very long, and does double back around the place many times.

The first path right infront of the stairs, passed the pad. You should actually spot the blue haze to your right. If you go left, there are another set of teleporters not get get trapped between, if you are hugging the wall there then there will apeear to be a corridor - and there is a teleporter track there. So warning, if you instead go directly across the room instead until you hit a wall, you should be safe to move around there (and another set of three pits) and you should see the teleporter to avoid the next fireball track.

The DM encyclopaedia does have maps, including the teleporter positions if you get really stuck.

Creatures that dfire fireballs are relatively rare, and hopefully for a good long while are tied to small rooms and areas, so should not kill you.

Good luck!

[slide]

Thanks, Beowolf. I"m not sure I can associate your text with the layout of the big room, but I'll try. Hugging the wall seems easy enough. I tried going directly across the room but never made it due to getting hit by a fireball. So instead I'll try right and left hugging walls. I'm not sure based on your text which is best.

[beowuuf]

Sorry, I might have been confusing due to looking at the map.

If you come away from the stairs straight forward two steps, you avoid the first fireball. Turn left and go directly across and you'll hit a wall that you can go around safety to the left. However, a fireball will fly across your path before then - if you hug the wall and go left first, you could work out where the teleporter is.

Easier to trust to luck and just go directly to the wall, move around it to the left, and then you can go across the room after that until you get near the wall and see the teleporters there. After that, you can hug the walls and perhaps find some interesting switches. If you hug the walls to the left hand side, you should find a teleporter with a switch beside it that might make your life better

[Jan]

Once you descend into that level, follow your left hand - after a while you come to closed door with a cheese in front of it (you can't open it now), and after another while you come to the fireball launcher (there's a chest in front of it). A few steps behind the launcher, there's a switch (inside the blue haze) - it opens a secret alcove behind it with another switch that turns the blue haze (teleporter) off.

Just follow your left hand - i.e. go around the hall clockwise from the stairs - that's the key!

EDIT: Damn, BW was faster, again!

[slide]

Thanks. I was able to actually follow BW's first post and managed to turn the fireballs off based on being able to survive long enough to get my bearings. Now I'm wandering around the big room pretty darned confused but at least able to survive long enough to get a feel for where I am. This is a TOUGH game at this level. I heard CSB was the tough game. If this is easy, I don't want to even consider CSB.

[beowuuf]

RTC has one final niggle you might have already discovered. Grey items on the floor are hard to notice (it was easier in the original DM for some reason). When near any of the walls, look around carefully....

Anyway, glad it's become playable again. Have fun

[Trantor]

I'll even be a bit more spoiler-ish than Beo: Somewhere in this giant room, there is a grey key lying on the floor. You NEED that key, and as Beo already said, it is harder to see in RTC than it was in the original.

CSB is indeed much harder than DM, mostly because it is so hard to find your way around. Once you finish DM, you will have learned enough that the game will seem rather easy to you, even without training.

I hope you'll enjoy the rest of the game, you have done much already!

[Ameena]

With regards to your possible return to Level 6 (the one with the Beholders where you kept getting zapped - yes they are bastards and for exactly the reasons you've specified - I wish they weren't this way in RTC ), I can tell you that

Spoiler

there's nothing you need to get from this level

, though

Spoiler

there are two Vorpal Blades to be found there, which might prove rather useful if you haven't already got a couple

. This is because

Spoiler

they're the only weapons that can harm non-material creatures, along with the Harm Non-Material Being spell...non-material beings include Ghosts, the green floaty things you'll have met on Level 8, the big open level where you are now.

If you're interested in knowing stuff you're specifically going to need with regard to places you've already been, there's

Spoiler

a Ra Key on level 3 ("Choose Your Door, Choose Your Fate") which you won't be able to finish the game without

.
On the level you're currently on, you may also find

Spoiler

the first of several Skeleton Keys, which will make life somewhat easier for you later

. Another note about this particular type of item is that

Spoiler

there's one too few to open all the skeleton locks

, but you can just avoid

Spoiler

opening the one on Level 12, which I consider to be the really Evil Bastard level, since you hopefully won't need to go back there again as long as you find what you need on your first (and hopefully only) visit

.
On another note, you may be slightly irritated to know that

Spoiler

you don't actually need anything from Level 5 (the one with the Flying Snakes and the jellyfish things that my book, for some reason, refers to as "Flying Screamers"), and in fact the whole level can just be bypassed if you follow the corridor along from the stairs on first entering the level - the whole "Store Room" section (or whatever it's called, can't remember now) can be skipped

.
Anyway, hope that info's useful for you in some way, and I'm glad we have the Spoiler tag thingy on this forum so I don't need to worry that I might have accidentally given you more info than you wanted .

[slide]

OK, thanks, Ameenor and Trantor (aren't you in the wrong book here, Trantor?).

Once I calmed down the large room so I could methodically search it, I did find the key needed to descend another level as well as the skel key. On an exploratory run to the next level (full of hairy pigs, guys in robes and something I can't name) I got killed once again by fireballs either from an eye or another thing I haven't gotten to yet. Again instant team death from a source I can't see. IMO, this game needs a difficulty slider.

Yikes. Rather than go on, I think I'll return to the floating eye way to see if I can find the other blade. I found one but not two. I had no idea two existed. Please no hints now on this one. I would prefer to try this myself from here on and ask if I get struck again. If a mod wishes, change the title of this thread to 'Not Fed Up' as I'm again moving.

[beowuuf]

One of the guys in robes unless you went really deep. They are only a couple (maybe as little as three) in number, and should all be behind doors, so what might have happened is it fired an open door spell at you then a fireball next.


And you should be able to edit your own subjects, so you can change it as you probress

[slide]

No door so it was something else than a robed guy.

I can't edit the title. No biggie.

[Trantor]

There is a fireball shooter on a wall on that level that is operated by tiny floor pads, but that is rather deep into the level, so I'm not sure what hit you.

On that level, beware of the funny little brown monsters (not the robed guys and not the hairy rats). You do not want these things to attack you. Take them out from a distance ASAP. To clarify:

Spoiler

These monsters are called rusters, and they can turn any armor you are wearing to rust, making them useless and essentially losing the item. Funnily, these monsters were planned as such for the original DM, but the rust attack was taken out. So in original DM, these monsters are amongst the most harmless as they do little physical damage. RTC restored this functionality, however. This may depend on which version you are playing: You have a chance to play the "RTC version" (which has restricted runes and a spellbook) or the "original version" (where all runes are available from the get-go). The rust attack might only be in the RTC version, but I am not sure about that.

[Ameena]

Trant -

Spoiler

I think the rust-attack thing is only in RTC-RTC, not RTC-DM because I've never had anything of mine rusted and I only ever play RTC-DM .

Hairy pigs? Lol...those are Giant Rats . And the little sorcerer guys are officially called "Vexirks". As for the weird little brown monsters with the blue-green moustaches, my book refers to them as "Generic Monsters, also known as Mutant Armadillos", though I'm not entirely sure why.
Anyway, nice that you're making progress. The death-by-spell thing is really annoying, yes - it's 'cause I think spell damage in RTC is rather overpowered compared to the way DM was originally back on the Atari, so stuff like Beholders are complete arseholes 'cause they can take out members of your party in a single Lightning Bolt.

[slide]

Oh, none of my guys is wearing any armor. It didn't seem to make any diff in hp I was taking. Am I wrong? Struck me as just adding weight & then I can't carry that much w/o going yellow in carrying capacity. Once yellow my team is too slow to avoid the hits so I figure speed wins over armor.

Trantor - yeah it must have been those fireballs by pressure plates which took my guys out. What I did was to run through the level ignoring most things on a scout. Then I restored from a much earlier version, went back to the fireball eye alley, got a vorpal, went back to the cabbage / little tree room & got some food & then came back the same way. Now that I have food, and water restored, I will take the rat (not pig??) level carefully.

Am I wrong about the armor? Seemed useless to me like all that jewelery one one of which (moonstone) seems useful.

[Lee]

Not to hijack or anything, but 'angry cabbages' deserves a from me.

[Trantor]

slide, you are more or less correct about armor. It DOES make a difference if you wear something or not, but not a huge one. I usually don't wear anything heavier than a chain shirt (6.5 kg). It is indeed a good idea to never let your characters get yellow.
The jewelry is similar. The Moonstone has an obvious use, and there are some others. The Illumulet adds some light, and I think the Gem of Ages raises a so-called hidden skill, which means that a character wearing it will have a little easier time in casting some priest spells, but you will rarely see a difference. There is also an amulet called Jewel Symal which raises either anti-fire or anti-magic (can't remember), and The Hellion which adds a wizard level to the character wearing it. So you see, all rather minor enhancements.

And Ameena, though you've brought up the names your weird little hint book uses a number of times, some are still rather funny.

[linflas]

how cute !

more realistic http://www.nerdnyc.com/tmp/6.jpg
anatomy ?? http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/Dragon_376/12.jpg

[Ameena]

Trant - You forgot the Pendant Feral. That's a good one to wear as well .
As far as armour is concerned, helms make a difference - I can remember testing it a while back by shutting myself in a door both with and without a helmet on - okay so the difference in damage was only a few points, but it made a difference. Dunno about other armour but as mentioned, it does seem to make a small difference. Mithral Mail is good 'cause it's quite light for what it is. And if you get everyone in Boots of Speed then you can move faster (but only if the whole party is wearing them), or so I'm told.
The rats are definitely rats - they have tails and teeth and pointy noses and stuff - maybe they'll look a bit more ratish if you see one from a side view, perhaps?
And the "cabbages" (lol) are called "Screamers" - this is a universal name and not just a weird one from my wonderful old hint book . The Screamer Room is a popular stop-off point for food and/or training (for those people who can be arsed to train - I never can, I just go through the whole game as-is, gaining levels as I go, with the exception of Ninja which I spend a couple of minutes training when I'm about halfway through the dungeon by repeatedly picking up something heavy, like a buolder or chest, and throwing it till that person has a few levels, then switching to someone else and repeating), as it regenerates and you can access it easily from the second staircase you open from beneath once you get down to Level 5. (ie the level below the Screamer Room). There is another regenerative food supply later which is also near a fountain, but I won't tell you how close you are to it or what kind of food it is .

[slide]

Yeah, I managed to get behind one of the pigs and saw it was obviously a rat. I thought pig based on a grunting noise it made & also I was busy with it sufficiently to not notice its graphics details.

I think I'll continue w/o armor for at least now. My guys are close to yellow due to me not knowing what I'll need further on down. I'd rather the supplies. I also noticed that I can advance by getting hit. I had two status elevations after doing nothing more than getting whacked by a worm.

I have passed several of the jewels you mentioned including recently the feral thing. I put it on and didn't remember seeing any change in stats. If I get back there again, I'll try it again. Same with the Symal thing - which I think I was carrying for a while & recently dropped somewhere. I've noted another skull hole but so far haven't found the skull key for this level. I'm looking. I did get another Ra key, though.

I tried going down a level on a scout and once again found a bunch of the *#&# eyeballs. I'll probably then take a break, return to the rat room & harden up a bit before I wearily take on YET another set of fatal eyeballs / fireballs. I need to find the skull key anyway.

Ah, let's see. First the long hallways with eyeballs fireballs. Then a large room with fireballs on tracks. The midgets in bathrobes with them. Now more eyeballs. I did get a neat spell to see through walls. Not useful, but interesting.