Not fed up

[slide]

OK, it's coming a bit together for me now. I may stop and read the manual. Since RTC came with no docs, I figured it was self evident or that an NPC would clue me if necessary.

Right now I need to come up with a tactic to take on the floating squids or man o'war things. Fighting them is a bit like the eyes because they can hit me from far enough away that it took me a few rounds to discover that I was even facing a monster rather than an auto cannon of some sort. I thought I had them cleaned out & I went into room to find one more.Then all of the sudden I was surrounded. First time I allowed that to happen. I sure hope this room doesn't gen them.

I'm asking for no spoilers. Part of the game's interest for me is figuring out a new strategy for each problem.

[Ameena]

Yeah, Spell Vines are a pain . Them and Beholders are probably the most annoying mobs in the game, I reckon, 'cause of the whole zapping-you-from-half-a-mile-down-the-corridor thing . Still, keep at it and I'm sure you'll get through the buggers somehow .

[slide]

Well, I may have reached the end of my game here. I managed to get into the place where the Dark Guy lurked, but due to being attacked by a fire monkey, I fell into a hole. The hole put me right next to a dinosaur which took a bad attitude. Since I've been tipped there are no NPC's, I decided to attack this animal.

Here is one of my big bafflements with this this game. I'm guessing that the dinosaur is the main toughest opponent in the game yet to me, it was a trivial task to defeat it (yielding t-bone steaks as a reward). I mean, while very tough, it was also slow so I managed to kill it without suffering a single hit. I could do so even after a few pints (tested). So to me, the main toughest monster in the game was easier to deal with than a floating eyeball or a ghostly squid.

I managed to activate the firestaff & went up a level to face Darkie, but it's a tough slog. I have to deal with flaming hub caps as well as many monkeys plus the Darkie as well. My team doesn't seem up to it, really. I'm guessing that if Darkie, the monkeys and the hub caps are all calm. I can run past them, exit this area through another exit and move up into the dungeon for more training, but that seems quite difficult. My attempts at caging then taming Darkie aren't working out too well. While I can make some progress, I always fall afoul of the monkeys or hub caps. If I try to exterminate the monkeys, then I fall afoul of Darkie and the hub caps. The effect of the fire shield remain slight. So I"m going to grade myself 90% for getting to the foozle but not solving the foozle itself. I may come back to this later on or try a new duo team.

If this is the starter game for CSB, I definitely don't wish to try that one.

[Jan]

Dinosaurs? Monkeys? LOL! What game are you playing? A ZOO-tycoon?

Defeating the "Dark Guy" is not that hard. Personally, I never bother with killing the "monkeys" and other enemies around. I just save my game at the stairs and then venture for a daring and chaotic adventure during which I try to run as fast as possible to evade the enemies and their fireballs, find the "Dark Guy" and try to cage him. If I fail, I just fall through a pit, heal myself, and go again, or restart. It never takes me more than 5 minutes (i.e. 10 restarts ) to finish it. Fast movement and total chaos - these are my mottos. Of course, this is not very nice, logical, elegant or brave, but it works.

Come on! You're

Spoiler

near the end

! And as a reward for finishing DM, I offer to advise you how to transfer your characters to CSB!

[Ameena]

Lol, the "dinosaur" is actually the Red Dragon - he just doesn't have wings because...well, can you see any more room for pixels on that bulk of his? I like killing Dragons - it's fun. Any mob whose front you can see (so, stuff like Beholders and Spell Vines are a bit tricky, apart from the fact they're normally encountered in corridors rather than rooms) and whom you have enough room to step around (so, a 2x2 space) is easy to kill as long as something else doesn't wander past and spoil your fun . The "monkies" are Fire Demons, and the "hubcaps" are Fire Elementals.
Do you know exactly what it is you have to do? There is a hint on

Spoiler

Level 7, which I mentioned before as being the Grey Lord's lab - there are a number of scrolls there which hint as to what the Firestaff is for

.
There are two entrances to the main room on level 13 (Lord Chaos's level) - one is a short corridor which is linked to a few dead-ends and the way back up to the previous level(s). The other is a longer corridor which links only to the stairs to Level 14 (the Dragon's level), and from the corner of which you can't see into Lord Chaos's room, which is somewhat dangerous if you're standing there and someone unseen down the other end lobs a spell at you .
You may have noticed that

Spoiler

none of the mobs in Chaos's room, including Chaos himself, can leave it, so you're safe if you hide away down one of the aforementioned corridors as long as you're not within a direct line of fire from the room itself. Of course, Fire Elementals are incapable of moving from the spot they're on, so they're easy enough to deal with if you just lob a Harm Non-Material Being spell at them from a distance...though when I play it I never have to deal with any of them

.
Did you try taking the Firestaff all the way back up to Level 1, to the entrance where Lord Order waits, to see what he says? Before you go rushing off to do so, perhaps I had better mention that

Spoiler

it isn't really the best of ideas

. If you want to know what happens, I can tell you -

Spoiler

You get to the main dungeon doors, where you see Lord Order all dressed in white, who says something like "Too bad you did not realise the true nature of the Firestaff. Oh well - now I have it, I have no further need of you.". Cue big-big Fireballs and total party death .

If you want to know exactly what it is you need to do regarding Chaos, the

Spoiler

scrolls on Level 7

I've mentioned keep going on about how

Spoiler

Balance is important, and that you can't have Order without Chaos, etc

, which should at least give a hint. What exactly happened with the Grey Lord was that

Spoiler

he's (accidentally) split himself into two during his experiments with the Firestaff, so now he's two people - Lord Chaos and Lord Order. You can't have one without the other and the two need to be fused back together for the world to not be fooked up any more

.
So, since you can't access

Spoiler

Lord Order

, you need to perform your actions on

Spoiler

Lord Chaos

, since

Spoiler

what you do to one will affect the other

. But you don't want to

Spoiler

kill him

. You may have worked out (at least, I gather from your previous post) that

Spoiler

you need to use the Fluxcages on Chaos

- this is right. You need to spoiler]surround him on all four sides with Fluxcages, then Fuse them together[/spoiler]. Lord Chaos can't be

Spoiler

killed, so if you've been trying to fire nasty spells at him, you can stop that now

.
Personally, I always tend to use the same spot for this - entering the main room of Level 13 from

Spoiler

the entrance that leads from the stairs-going-up, so I can see into the room from the end of the corridor and check whether there's anyone waiting for me before I move in

, I enter and move immediately to the

Spoiler

right, keeping in the area around the near corner - there are a few pits but no Fire Elementals and not usually any Demons either, plus there's space to manoeuvre

. Usually Chaos isn't there at first, so I have some time to

Spoiler

find a clear spot and stand there castign Fluxcages arond myself - cast, turn, cast, turn, cast, turn,

until I'm

Spoiler

surrounded on three sides - only three sides because Chaos will never willingly step into a space occupied by a Fluxcage. I make sure that this fourth side isn't one that opesn to the rest of the room because he might come over and zap me or something

. It's worth mentioning at this point that

Spoiler

I don't actually have to use four Fluxcages - the dungeon wall works just as well so in theory you could trap Chaos in a corner or a doorway (yes, there is one, over in the opposite corner) or something, which would only involve the use of two Fluxcages

. But old habits die hard, as they say .
So, at this point all I have to do is

Spoiler

wait for the dude himself to come over, so basically I just stand there, slowly rotating and constantly refreshing my Fluxcages because they don't tend to stay up for too long and it's kind of important to keep them active . Occasionally a Demon or two might come investigating, but as I always have my party with Mon Fireballs ready to cast (since they can usually cast them by that stage, or if not then at least Pal-level), this isn't too much of a problem and I can always run away back into the corridor to have a rest or just to escape if I'm getting pounded on

.
When

Spoiler

Chaos finally turns up, I can't remember whether he likes to lob spells at you through a Fluxcage or whether it's only walking through it he won't do. Anyway, he'll make his way around to the empty space I've left in the squares surrounding me

. When this happens, as he

Spoiler

enters that square, I cast the final Fluxcage in the square he's on, then quickly step backward - he steps forward into the Fluxcage-surrounded area

. Then

Spoiler

I hit Fuse. End of game

.
Note that if you try to Fuse Chaos when he's not surrounded by Fluxcages, he'll teleport a short distance away, so it's a good way of getting him out of your face if he's bugging you when you're not ready for him[/spoiler].
Wow, that was probably the most amount of spoiler tags I've ever used in a post . I hope some of the info there is useful. DM is somewhat unlike other games in that

Spoiler

the final boss fight isn't really a fight, more of a "sneak around and wait for the bad guy to come to you, then trap him"...

the only similar game that springs to mind is

Spoiler

Stonekeep, a later FTL game which I also enjoy

. Technically you could finish DM

Spoiler

without being uber at all, as long as you got lucky and didn't get discovered by any Demons or whatever when you're setting up your end-game in Chaos's room

. I think the record for completing DM is about half an hour...or is it 19 mins? I think CSB was nine minutes - there's a video of it available somewhere.
Anyway...yes, CSB is much harder, but it's mainly because that game is,

Spoiler

as the name might imply, rather...well, chaotic. It's completely non-linear so you spend most of the time running around random places going "Aarrrgh, wtf is gong on? Where am I? Haven't I already been here? Bu this key wasn't here before! Omg wtf is that mob?! I've never seen one of those before!"

, etc, which is fun .
Oops I've spent all this time writing this post and now I have to go to work, lol. Well, I hope you manage to finish DM - you're so close!

[Jan]

Once I'm 65+ and get retired, I hope to find some time and read this Ameena's post.

The other thing I wanted to mention in my previous post is that I agree with Slide that killing the dragon in DM is too easy. I always feel so sorry for that guy, he's so slow and stupid... no wonder the dinosaurs are extinct... but don't worry, his friends in CSB will strike back!

[beowuuf]

I never bothered to kill him to start with, just chased him away with combination Horn of Fear and Staff of Claws.

The Lord Chaos level is exactly the sort of fight you want really - you can't just two step around the boss, there are strategic pits and black flames around, and also demons to contend with.

The demons are finite - if you use allthe items you would have amassed (FUL bombs, etc also work against them) then you can whittle them down. Chaos does respawn the flame pits, so you need to choose strategic locations to face him.

[Gambit37]

More concise tips:

1) Dispose of Black Flames using Fuse on the Firestaff
2) Some black flames don't regenerate and can be walked over when killed
3) Dispose of Demons using powerful fireballs; there are only a few of them and finite, as Beo notes
4) Keep a rope in one characters hand and when cornered near a pit, climb down, then come back up via the stairs on dragon level
5) Surround Lord Chaos on all sides with fluxcages, then Fuse him

It's actually pretty easy. Just slow down and think about what you're doing, sounds like you're rushing around too much and panicking

@Ameena: FTL didn't do StoneKeep.

[Ameena]

Oh did they not? Oh, it must've just been Interplay then and I was getting confuzzled with DM2 because that has both logos come up at the start, perhaps? Or maybe I was just thinking that because the games are sort of similar, what with the step-movement and stuff.

[slide]

Thanks, all, and especially Ameena for that amazing post.

Let me make it clear. I am sure what to do now, however now that the thing is solved, it's just a mechanical thing to dance around the firepots, the monkey demons and finally to trap then fuse the Lord Dark. Yeah, if I try, I'll get zapped a few times and need to reload the game & try again. The key is obviously to rid myself of the monkey demons then find a place where there aren't too many of the fire pots & dance around the DArk Lord caging him & also not allowing him to set up for a strike. I'll probably archive the save game as it is now and maybe come back to it later on.

However, the idea of trying a solo or duo now seems a good deal more interesting to me than the trial and error of fusing this guy given a good deal of how tough it'd be will depend on luck. That is, I need to get DL away from the pots & also need to kill a monkey, then rest up / repair, etc. and do it again.

I remain a bit skeptical about CSB. Based on my reading, DM at its toughest wasn't up to CSB at its easiest. That may be well beyond my abilities. I also wonder if the fireshield in RTC is less potent than in DOS DM. While it seemed to afford some protection, the amount was barely noticeable.

[beowuuf]

It's a different sort of hard, the puzzles are very...involved, to say the least. Fireshields stack, and a few low level shields can't compete against powerful fire. The demon fireballs can get reduced, but you'd probably drain a lot of many to reduce a Chaos firebal!

[Ameena]

As mentioned in my post, I can usually find a safe enough spot to trap Chaos. Bear in mind that it is possible to use normal walls instead of Fluxcages (for example, if you were to trap him in a corner, you'd only need to conjure two cages because the natural walls count as well), though I manage quite well using four. My usual corner is just inside the room but off to the right hand side, near the corner - there's space enough to stand in a spot and conjure four cages around you - but I conjure three and then continually rotate slowly, refreshing them every few seconds and keeping an eye out for Chaos - when he shows up I let him step toward me and into the vacant (ie non-Fluxcaged) space, then I step back and so he steps forward into the middle. Then "Bzzt!" - done . I rarely see any Demons - maybe they all hang around the other end of the room or something, but it's no biggy to retreat back to the entrance and hide round the corner, stepping out and lobbing Fireballs at them. You just have to hang about for a while if you end up with Chaos camping you at the end of that tunnel, and sit around for a bit till he buggers off . And the Fire Elementals I never even go near, so they're no threat as they can't move or shoot .
As for CSB, the difficulty in that stems more from "Omg wtf where am I? What am I doing? Arrgh I've got lost again and now there's something chasing me..." than being stuck in a room surrounded by monsters trying to eat you. Umm, well, mostly it's not like that .

[slide]

As I said,I may return to this. I think the demon monkeys congregate around the left area where there is a room. In my version of DM, LC does tend to hang out at the end of the entrance hallway making for some tedium / sleeping and then waiting / testing to see if he's left. Those fireballs he casts are difficult

@beowolf =- Yes I know that the shields stack. Even so, it makes only a slight difference. It is a critical one because a full stack will prevent instant death from, say, floating squids or eyeballs.

As to CSB, if I try that, and I may, it will be after a bit of a break or after I try a duo. Too bad I can't train up a super duo in DM and xfer to CSB.

[oh_brother]

^^ You can transfer. I don't have the details for RTC myself, but I am sure plenty of other people can guide you.

Btw sounds like the ending in RTC is a lot harder than in CSBWin or the original ST. I have completed this game many times. I start out with all the theory sorted out, like in Ameena's post. But then in the heat of battle all that goes out the window and I just fluxcage/fuse like a maniac. After a minute or two I get him by accident.

But if it is not fun anymore then you are right to take a break. Come back refreshed at a later date!

[slide]

To me the fun was in the new and unexplored. I would often get so into the role that I'd start to sweat when I explored a new region & heard some noise. This is, to my seeing, a much more immersive game than much more modern ones such as Oblivion. Obviously the graphics of the modern games are much better, but that doesn't make up for the atmosphere and sense of 'being there' that this game has. Like in Oblivion, I never felt like I was personally in danger yet here I did. Amazing for a game now 25 years old and meant to be played on a 1 mb 16 bit box.

Others have said that many aspects of the RTC are more difficult than the original DM. I find it interesting that no versions I know of have a difficulty slider.

[beowuuf]

DM Java has a difficulty slider if I recall - the link to downloading the latest version is in one of the lower sub-forums.

DM Java has its own quirks to do with stamina and poison stacking, and have some other fun quirks like monsters climbing stairs. Worth your time, certainly, although people have found the default dungeon harder.

[slide]

'Default' dungeon? There are alternative dungeons?

[beowuuf]

DM Java came with a dungeon the creator made instead of a recreation of the original. Two people remade the DM and CSB dungeons later, thopugh not sure if the links for those are still active!

If you haven't already, you should check the custom dungeon sub-forum to see some of the fan created alterative dungeons for RTC. There are some pretty good ones around.

[slide]

Thanks. I'll take a look.

[Gambit37]

I find it interesting that no versions I know of have a difficulty slider.

RTC has a diffculty setting: check the CONFIG.TXT in your RTC folder. Note: it only gets harder!

[slide]

Oh, thanks. No, I don't need it more difficult. I noted the config.txt but aside from a short look at it, made no mods.

[Ameena]

Just to note, starting CSB with your DM party is easy in RTC - just load up CSB so you're outside the main dungeon doors, then I think you click on the scroll you can see lying in the bottom right of the picture - this brings up a new menu with some options, one of which is "Create New Adventure" - select that and then I think you can just pick which save you want to transfer your characters from. You can also give them new pictures (though I'm not sure about names) at this point if you want .

[slide]

Thanks. If I get a desire to feel inadequate, I'll give CSB a try.

[beowuuf]

If you find your party naked in the dark being attacked from three sides, it's not a bug. That's the start of CSB if you aren't careful. It gets better, honestly!

[slide]

Wow. I"m encouraged (not)

[beowuuf]

You7 just finished complaining about easy combats To be fair, it's a large room with some goodies you can grab, and the third critter is a little ways off so you have time to move and fight. It's pretty fun actually. Then you get surrounded by puzzles for a while

[Ameena]

That's "a while" as in "the whole game" . There's certainly fun to be had - I quite enjoy "Supplies for the Quick" when the locals aren't around . Anyway, you can always start CSB (with your DM party if you want to keep the feeling of continuation and all that, rather than recruiting a new team that you've never "met" before, as it were), and then just stop if you decide you don't like it. Or maybe, now knowing what you know, you could start DM again with a two-person party, or however you'd like to try it differently, and see if you can finish the game with them instead.

[slide]

Beowolf - I was 'complaining' about the lack of even or graduated combat. I figured the red dragon being the ultra monster would also pose the greatest challenge where it hardly did. I had a good deal more trouble dealing with the fire eyes on L6 or so than I did the dragon. Ditto the guys in armor which likewise were laughably easy to deal with. I think the way RTC was done lacked balance. If I were a game maker, I'd have made both the dragon and the armored guys faster while I'd have reined back the fire eyes because they could do my party in with one whack & I didn't even see what was attacking me. It was a comment more than a complaint.

I may try CSB but my curiosity is addressed. Others said DM holds its own against modern games and now, having tried it, I agree.

[Sophia]

I'd just like to point out, because it seems to have gotten muddied in this discussion a bit, that DM != RTC.

RTC is a modern clone that was done by "look and feel," and while it manages a very good superficial resemblance, some aspects of RTC are wildly different from the original Dungeon Master game, in particular, some of the balancing aspects. For example, poison and fireballs in RTC have been observed to be somewhat overpowered relative to DM, which make enemy spell casters particularly fiendish and seemed to be creating problems for you.

[slide]

Thanks, Sophia. I suspected as such and others, very early in this thread, mentioned that they thought so too. Well, I have RTC, started it and got a bit deep before I ran into any serious magic users so I decided to press onward rather than start anew using DM in a DOSBOX as others suggested. Well, I did get down to L.C. so whatever - I managed to survive although some areas were pretty darned difficult.

I also didn't find enough skull keys to open all the skull doors. Beats me if I missed them due to gray keys being almost invisible on the gray floor in RTC as well.