Dungeon Master Forum

Watching some of the CSBwin videos people made, I was just wondering: How do you usually solve the Fulya level - I mean, how do you usually get to the Fulya pit?

Usually, I use the "secret path" (with the four B-keys). It's safe and I can avoid the stupid demons. On the other hand, I have to collect the B-keys (and Topaz / Master key), which can be slightly inconvenient sometimes.

So, rarely, I try to fight my way through the demons (freezing them and then killing a few of them and then trying to sneak around somehow to the Master Key door). But it's very chaotic and I have to reload the game a few times to succeed.

I've noticed that many people around use the teleporter to bypass the Master key door. It has never worked to me. Is this the teleporter to the left a few steps in front of the Master key door? Or are there also some other teleporters that can get you behind that door? I understand that there's a creature moving somewhere that turns the teleporter on and off. Or am I wrong? How likely is it that the teleporter would be "on"? I'm still quite surprised that it's never worked to me.

Or are you using The Weapon to get rid of the demons? Honestly, I've never managed to assemble it (perhaps because I'm too lazy). How much time does it take to you, people, to get it working? I really must go and try it - I'd really like to see it working sometimes.

Discuss. I hope to learn many new things from you.

Hmmm...I did not know there were so many options! To answer your question I just fight through the demons (equipped, of course, with the eye of time and magic boxes). It is hectic, heart-in-your-mouth type stuff.

I did not know there was a secret path, I thought the keys of B were just for some side doors with goodies that I missed. And what the hell is the weapon?? I feel like such a newbie!

"The Weapon" is the fireball cannon that you redirect through various spinners into the heart of the demons.

It's been years since I played CSB so I can't answer your questions on strategy, Jan, as I never had one! I just run and hope for the best!

The weapon is also called "The Wrath Of God(s ?)" or something like that... It's fairly easy to set up, just use iron keys and Gor coins in every slots you can find (while watching out for pits) and it should open walls and create teleporters to redirect the fireballs towards the Master door. Just remember to set up the fireball launcher near the Dain path last otherwise I can promise you some fun times dodging yellow and red balls while setting it up

The Fulya level really depends on your goals:
1) Quick runs will favour the secret path with the 4 keys of B + topaz key
2) If you want to train up your characters you may decide to fight the Demon Chamber head on after going clearing all the 4 ways
3) If you really want to stop and collect all items, you may wish to wander and fight the roaming zytaz, worms and demons in the centre of the level
4) If you're a masochist, you may want to use the skeleton key and release all the demons from their Chamber (I've never tried that and survived )

The secret teleporter is actually quite random. I have seen it appear near the area with the key of B slots: I'm not sure what triggers it. It is on the level 00 map at coordinates 00, 41, 37 but isn't always there...

Personally I tend to enter each path one after the other, just to open all access walls, in case I need a quick retreat from monsters' attacks.
It also depends on how many characters I play with: going through the Demon Chamber with a sole character is challenging so an easier path is usually chosen in this case.

There are two teleporters that get you
into the FulYa area. The first teleports you
into the demon area and the second teleports
you from there to the FulYa. If both are on then
you have a free, quick passage.

Each time you enter level zero a worm is released
and has about a 50 percent chance of toggling
each of the teleporters. So - VERY APPROXIMATELY -
there is about one chance in four that both teleporters
are active. Two chances in four that one is active.
One chance in four that neither is active. This
approximation approaches exactness as you enter
level zero more times on various stairs.

^^ So if I understand you correctly in roughly 1 game in 4 the teleporters will be active? And the player has no control over this, other than altering the number of times he/she goes to level zero, thereby controlling how closely the odds will approximate 25%?

Correct.

Alright, but you only need one teleporter - the one in the demon chamber, closest to the Master Key door, right? You don't need the other one to get this one working, right?

Right. And if you find it not active
you can return to one of the level-zero
entries and try again. But be aware that
you cannot do this more often than once
every six minutes. And each attempt has
perhaps one chance in four of succeeding.
(Intuition......I did no computation)
To get it to work with 90 percent probability
you would have to do this eight times.
And each time you do this, you will have
one more worm to contend with on level zero.

This is one example of the very clever mechanics
that characterize Chaos Strikes Back.

I guess I'll keep using the "Key-of-Bs-now-not-so-secret-passage".

I've had a go at all of those at various times I think. Infact, there is a recording of each. The secret path is used in my first few CSB recordings, the recordings that are an hour or more I think. The recordings under an hour but above 15 minutes, use a master key obtained from NETA to go through the master door. The recordings under 15 minutes kill a demon on the top floor get to a master key to go through the master door. The CSBminimum moves recording uses the teleporter to get through the door, I had to record that part over and over to get the teleporter to appear :s. There's also a huge recording of CSB where I try and do everything and at the end set up the Wrath of God weapon to kill all the demons. I'm not sure if this recording is on Paul's site, I don't think I have a copy of it anymore either. It was about 8 hours long, made in one go without saving, definitely one for quickplay until the end!

When I was recording the minimum moves recording, I would save and check where the worm had moved using CSBuild. If he had moved in the wrong direction, I would reload an earlier save and try again. I'm tempted to try and make a recording using saves, more than one character and ressurected characters to see how fast CSB can be won, no speed boots with more than one character though.

AntMan confirms he is the most hardcore of CSB players -- and also the most masochistic!

Yeah.

Antman wrote:There's also a huge recording of CSB where I try and do everything and at the end set up the Wrath of God weapon to kill all the demons.

I'd really like to see that video. But eight hours or so is kind of too much, even with the Quick Play option. I wish there was some other way to go to only selected parts of the video and skip the rest. And, yeah, I know that it's not so easy or that it's even impossible, and I don't want to make PaulS " ". I'm just saying that it would be the coolest feature ever.

Now you've done it

Is is quite impossible. There is no 'state'
information in the playfile. Only actions
like 'forward' or 'click mouse at (x,y)'.

We might be able to do something clever.

We could slip a 'Breakpoint' into the playfile.
You want to see what happens after 7 hours.
put a breakpoint at the seven-hour spot.
Start the playback when you go to bed.
Next morning you press the 'start' button
and watch the last one hour of play.
We might be able to do this without any
changes to CSBwin.

Another kind of breakpoint might be a
menu option. You could specify a time
or a place in the dungeon that would trigger
the breakpoint when the party arrived.
In this case you might specify a breakpoint
when the party entered level zero.

Paul Stevens wrote:There is no 'state'
information in the playfile. Only actions
like 'forward' or 'click mouse at (x,y)'.

I understand. Based on your first option, I'm probably going to say something very naive:

Wouldn't it be possible for a computer to perform all the actions from the playfile very fast (without displaying anything, no graphics, no sound, no nothing) to a certain point ("Breakpoint" as you said)? I mean: let's say we have 100.000 steps in the playfile, right? Now, I will tell the computer "go to step 50.000" (or "go to 50 % of the recording") (*). And the computer will perform all the actions between 0 to 50.000 internally (without showing anything) and then show everything from the step 50.000 onwards. So you would have only an "in progress" note (or a counter showing the progress in %) and then, when the computer arrives at the given place, it would stop and you would get a "click when ready to watch" button. I know that this would take some time, but don't tell me that it would take exactly the same time as with the "Quick Play" option! I mean with all the computer power and everything we have, don't tell me that it would be that slow on modern machines.

(*) There would always be a counter on the screen showing a % progress of the recording and a "Go to _ _ % of the recording" option. So when a player gives a recording to the audience, he'd say "watch what I did with the dragon at 24,57 %! or so."

Now, this is naive, aint' it? I'm glad you weren't " " but only " " *runs and hides*

EDIT: I've checked it and it's about 1 minute of Quick Play Viideo for every 25 minutes of normal play on my computer - it's not that much I think.

Wouldn't it be possible for a computer to perform all the actions from the playfile very fast

That capability already exists.

Look at the front of a playfile.log....

Set the Nospeedlimit
set fastbbl to 98 (99 to see the action)

And what you could do is put in commands at
the front to go very fast then a command at
the 7-hour point to go normal speed.

*scratches his head* I wish I knew what to do. Anyway, never mind, i don't want to bring this thread too off-topic. So, thanks anyway, Paul! CSBWin is a fantastic engine, and you are a wonderful man!

Hmmm, since you can take out saves without affecting the game, would it be possible to insert saves? Then the game could be started from the save game point, after running it through at high speed. For games that already have saves in them, it would be quite easy wouldn't it? Especially if you kept all the original logs.

You cannot insert saves. Saves modify the
state of the game. When I remove saves I
have to insert compensating modifications.
I doubt that there is a way to 'un-modify'
the savegame so that the original logs would
work. I won't even try.

If saves exist within the playback, even if
they have been removed from the playback,
they can be un-removed. The playfile could then
be modified to start from that save point.

Having said this.....I have never done it.
But I wager 4-to-1 that I could do it.
If you kept original logs that started from
that savepoint then it would be trivial. And
probably work. 8-to-1. Playback is a
delicate mechanism.

Toufman wrote:4) If you're a masochist, you may want to use the skeleton key and release all the demons from their Chamber (I've never tried that and survived .

I tried this and it works fine. If you're fast and open the skeleton lock before too many demons are spawn, you have a very good chance of finding the Demon Lair relatively empty and of walking to the Master Lock without being disturbed at all (provided that you've got the Master Key from the lower levels, of course).

I thought the Master Key was on one of the demons in the big scary room...?

Yes. But there's also a second Master Key in CSB - you can get it

Spoiler

from the vexirk in the Vexing Vexirk puzzle

.