Re: What the... Snow in June, then in August!
Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:16 pm
i love these conversations...
The 'Dungeon Master' video games community
https://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/
what is not factored in here is that it wasn't the sea rising and falling only, the land mass has gone up and down, the earth moves up and down all the time. the reports they are using are not scientific here, this is one of many things wrong with data collected. andit is usually shores that rise and fall from continents colliding, more work needs to be done before any REAL scientist can put their name on it. the data they collect is from shoreline observations, it's not accurate at all.About 500 million years ago CO2 levels were about 20 times today's levels, and I do remember from my Geology class last summer that global sea levels were far higher then they are today, in fact about 50% of North America's present day landmass was underwater. Then CO2 levels dropped off and sea levels also dropped off exposing the previously underwater parts of North America's land.
I'm not disputing that. In both cases there's a reason why they don't have water, both elements are available on both planets, but in the case of Mercury, the planet's too small and too close to the sun, any water that does happen to form there is burnt off immediately.Chaos-Shaman wrote:neither venus or mercury have water which is my point, and oddly enough water is the most biggest grenhouse gas we have on the planet, it holds heat well.
As the human race biological entity, perhaps, but my experience tells me we've been around for longer than we realize. Not as the human race obviously, but we have been around in other ways...Chaos-Shaman wrote:BUT if we can get off this blue marble we might continue in some way.
some climatologists, like the fella who is in charge of some of our climate\weather satellites are saying that it depends on what type of clouds. low dense clouds cool the planet, higher thin clouds warm the planet. this is a cycle that the earth goes through. so according to those scientists it goes both ways.although water vapor is a good greenhouse gas, it's liquid counterpart, condensed clouds of water droplets actually reflect and block the sun's energy from reaching the surface, so water's only a reliable GW contributor if temperatures where it occurs are too hot for it to condense (Like on Venus for example).
right now it is at its solar max, so even with the solar max we're still seing a cold winter, for where i live it has been cool pretty much with a few exceptions since 2008, it just depends where one is. that's 6 years of lousy gardening for me hopefully you'll dig up the actual records of the past decade and a half. don't use any charts that include preindustrial reading, just the last decade and a half. it is known that the earth even though has been very warm in places like BC and Australia with the land of extremes with 5 deserts, the overal temp has changed little even as pop grows and CO2 rises that in terms of measurment a grain of sand on a beach. this does not go well with climate models. what i will do is when these articles come up with graphs n stuff, i'll post em for ya, i know you still don't believe me heh, no worries, i'll dig up the info.especially if you combine that with the current sun cycle which would mean receiving less energy from the sun
i call this speculation, i don't see any of our records being accurate here, so when it comes to time it depends on where we think tings stop and start. from what i know we're still in a warming period.In fact, in my Geology class, we did cover the little ice age and how it may actually have been the start of a new major glaciation period, a part of the last ice age that we thought had ended 10000 years ago when it really may not have ended yet. We may have interrupted a major glaciation with our CO2 emissions and human caused global warming. Of course that's just speculation based on what data we have available and there are many other reasons why the Little Ice Age ended.
Here's some food for thought, maybe global warming stopped the start of an ice age and has delayed it by a few hundred years but the conditions contributing to a new glaciation are still there and what we're seeing now is them now overpowering the human caused global warming and an ice age in imminent, despite what we're doing. Maybe we never really left the Geological Pleistocene Epoch (the time of the last ice age, ranging from about 1.8 million years ago to about 10000 years ago)...
Actually, that is a valid point, the ice age was not 1.8 million years of wall-to-wall ice, it consisted of periods of advancing ice, with periods of retreating ice. The periods of advancing ice are referred to as a Glaciation, and the periods of retreating ice are referred to as an Interglacial Period. Ice Age interglacial periods lasted for anywhere from a few thousand years to 20000, 300000 or 40000 years, before the ice would advance again and much of the land would again be buried under miles of ice. So about 10000 years since the last of the ice retreated would fit the timeline of an interglacial period of the latest Ice Age.
This site give a great explanation of how temperature and climate records are developed: http://www.eoearth.org/view/article/151832/Decade °C °F
1880s 13.73 56.71
1890s 13.75 56.74
1900s 13.74 56.73
1910s 13.72 56.70
1920s 13.83 56.89
1930s 13.96 57.12
1940s 14.04 57.26
1950s 13.98 57.16
1960s 13.99 57.18
1970s 14.00 57.20
1980s 14.18 57.52
1990s 14.31 57.76
2000s 14.51 58.12
yeah, and from what you posted it just goes to show there will be something, whether we're the cause of it or not won't matter, as you know i believe we are natural in our presence, what we do no matter what it is, is a natural process, that includes burning fuels. we are a part of a greater process still not defined yet, we still ask ourselves why are we here and what comes next. i guess you can say i am not worried about dying personally, although many fear death and change. i do want to live long enough to see my great grandchildren, and i may achieve this yet, maybe they'll be the ones to find the solution to mans troubles, or help man reach out into space. ne thng is for sure, life will go on after we're gone from this planet.The main issue at hand then seems to be not whether or not the current temperatures are unnatural, but whether or not the current trend is unnatural. Are temperatures raising faster then in a natural change? Are they going in the opposite direction to what they should be without human intervention (ie raising when all other conditions besides the increase in CO2 levels in our atmosphere would indicate they should be falling)? Or perhaps raising when they should be naturally remaining stable?
this is called self preservation, i understand that, but what people usually don't consider is, maybe that's what we do, this is mans way. i do not see this being evil, quite the contrary. it is quite possible we're suppose to die off in this way, a consideration that not many think about. wouldn't it be better for the planet if we did not exist. perhaps the way we look at ourselves needs to be addressed. how can anyone argue we're good for the planet right, do you see what i am getting at. a psychological point of view is to understand that EVERYBODY thinks we're killing the planet and if you were to ask them to stop what they're doing and live basic, do you think they'd stop, drop all their bad ways of life all in support of saving the planet, i hardly think so. do you thnk all the AGW believers are going to give up all that to prove they're serious about saving the world (which by the way does not need saving). you see, this is where i get involved. i know they won't, and the only thing going on right now is fear driven, and they want MONEY for it. put simply, why not just stop making the things that pollute, why doesn't our government put an end to it, if it were that serious you'd think they would right. i am prepared to live basic, but nobody else is, so why should i pay for what they do? it is because they are ALL addicts to energy, govs know that we'll burn all our fossil fuels, of course we will, even coal. what they really want is for us to pay now for expensive energies in order to prolong how long it lasts. if anyone here thinks in 200 years we won't be still burning what we have i suggest to them to have a closer look how that could even be possible with todays population just coming online to what we've had for 100 years, think about it. do we really think they could afford the new energy, especially after we have raped their resources to the greedy businesses that fund our activities, not a chance. this is a psychological thing, and ther eis nothing we can do about it. money makes the world go round, something has to be picked, burned, processed, stolen, etc, and unless there is a miracle like Jesus or some other thing like that pop up, thisprocess will never stop, which is why i have said we're doing what we're going to do, o matter waht. buying a car that is thought to be more green is not going to solve a thing, but it will help others cope with our feelings on how to self preserve, it's all psychological..Regardless of what climatic effects these pollutants are having, they still are poisons that we're putting in the air we breath, the water we drink and the food we eat, which does turn all these necessities of life into slow acting poisons. In this way we turn doing the very things we need to do to live into things that kill us slowly. That's in addition to them having at least the potential to unnaturally alter our climate in ways we don't yet understand, due to the interactions of all these unnatural substances with each other and all the naturally occurring substances in our environment. So regardless of the effects we're having on our climate, that's only one part of our environment and we must make the changes needed to live clean, work clean, grow clean, move clean and build clean.
I refuse to accept that. If we allow ourselves believe we are supposed to die off, we will inevitably and invariably to things to make that happen. If we don't accept that notion, we will continuously look for solutions and most likely find them.Chaos-Shaman wrote:i do not see this being evil, quite the contrary. it is quite possible we're suppose to die off in this way
Maybe some environmentalists who are radical in the extreme think that is the answer, but could you imagine 7 billion humans all trying to be hunter-gatherers? We'd hunt and gather food souses into extinction in a hurry, even going back to the most basic tools possible. No, going back in time is not the answer, and it never was. That's the past, and it's good for experience and learning, but it's not meant to be lived in or stuck in.Chaos-Shaman wrote:if you were to ask them to stop what they're doing and live basic
I can tell you right now, we certainly won't be burning very much in 200 years, because of the simple reason that at current burn rates, we won't have much left to burn by then. Either we will have been forced backwards in technology as all our fossil fuel technology becomes useless, we will have poisoned ourselves, or we will have learned how to do live a technologically advanced life without polluting. Of those 3 major possibilities, I prefer the 3rd one. The 1st one means getting thrown backwards in development, the 2nd one means non survival (death) but the 3rd one means continuing to make our lives better, and finding newer and better ways of doing things.Chaos-Shaman wrote:if anyone here thinks in 200 years we won't be still burning what we have i suggest to them to have a closer look how that could even be possible with todays population just coming online to what we've had for 100 years,
There are very sinister things going on, I've been politically active since the early 1990's and have been studying many of these sinister things. What I leaned then has only scratched the surface of it. I've only recently begun to learn what all these sinister activities are really about and who's really, ultimately behind it. It all traces back to about a dozen or so very powerful and very suppressive families. I already know who a few of them are right now, but that's a whole other topic of discussion.Chaos-Shaman wrote: this shows how dirty money is, this is what is happening to the carbon tax credits, but there is way more sinister things going on about this that the average joe doesn't know about or even consider.
.Chaos-Shaman wrote:are they willing to live simple, without the internet and phones and rubbers and chemicals and all that stuff.
can you accept the fact that we will eventually, that everything has its time.I refuse to accept that. If we allow ourselves believe we are supposed to die off, we will inevitably and invariably to things to make that happen. If we don't accept that notion, we will continuously look for solutions and most likely find them.
there are some things we just can't control, Chaos has made sure of that, random chance can't be controlled.I my experience, what we, and indeed all life is meant to do, is survive, and conquer the physical universe. By conquer the physical universe, I don't mean by waging war on everything else in it, I mean by surviving it, understanding it, and learning how to controlling it.
you're making my point, we are what we are, we will continue using up resources like any other animal will, it's natural. i don't feel guilty that i take a schit and flush the toilet although one can think it is bad, but the facts are the facts, we have to consume and schit, that's just the way it is. when i make my mash for ethanol, the yeast eats all the sugar until it's gone and then it dies, leaving me with the goodies with water and poop. man is no different. we can't hold ourselves responsible on things we can't control, money is not going to fix this. this is about self preservation. some of the worst things ever come from things that hang around to long, like certain diseases as an example, yet the disease is doing the wold a favour by controlling population, a natural process. when we think we can make it better is where we get into trouble, it only makes more population and strengthens the disease mutations. so it's a catch 22. hehehe, i don't want to catch a 22 of anything whatever that may beMaybe some environmentalists who are radical in the extreme think that is the answer, but could you imagine 7 billion humans all trying to be hunter-gatherers? We'd hunt and gather food souses into extinction in a hurry, even going back to the most basic tools possible. No, going back in time is not the answer, and it never was. That's the past, and it's good for experience and learning, but it's not meant to be lived in or stuck in.
wishful thinking if in paradise, but it is not practical, life needs to die in order to create, so i accept death, if man dies off i'm not worried about it, it is the way nature works. if we lived in a perfect world we'd not exist, hint, the perfect world occurs when man dies, nothing left to worry about then. we would have completed the natural cycle. man thinks it knows everything and is scared schitless when death makes it move on self preservation. don't fight it, embrace it. the world will be here when we're gone, maybe even a new species of intelligence will be after us, so the planet doesn't need out help, we need to accept our death, this time will come, we can't stop it, and throwing money at it won't help either. it's a frame of mind that needs to be taken on. if we all wanted a little less, that would be a good start, but if there is no want then there is no manufacturing then no jobs etc, and then we'd be back in the stone age.The answer is to research new ways, discover new technologies and solve the problems of pollution, human activities that are affecting our climate and any other problems we're faced with. The answer is to learn how to do what we're doing without polluting and poisoning. It is possible, if we are willing to put in the effort to do it, and support those that are willing to put in the effort and make the necessary discoveries.
i'm afraid that is impossible, and is not practical. there is no clean way to create plastics, rubbers, steel, computer components, there is none. every form of energy that can be used requires a waste product, either in burning it or producing the gismos to aquire it. that's what man does, flushes the toilet and you can't stop that, impossible.or we will have learned how to do live a technologically advanced life without polluting.
oh i don't agree, we have enough coal to burn for a very long long time, we have not even found all the oil and gas, not even close to that. our estimates of energy are growing all the time, there is a lot to be found yet. in nature, where there is a bounty of one thing due to good season or some other natural process, organisms will take advantage of it and develope a way to harness the bounty, that is how nature works. we don't need to worry about pop control because nature will do that for us, no need to worry, history shows that is quite normal. how about if i put it this way, all those smart scientists that are trying to prolong our life are doing a bad thing, they are making our pop grow bigger faster, it contradicts those scientists who say we're getting over populated and need to conserve our energies. (i do not like people who often say that we need to prevent children from being born), this is not natural, this is a selfish point of view from the gift we were given in the first place, to create life, not thwart it. we control too much, we already kill enough as it is to do this controlling idea. man can't handle itself let alone other organisms. we play God too much.I can tell you right now, we certainly won't be burning very much in 200 years, because of the simple reason that at current burn rates,
now that is realistic, and everyone would agree on that. technology comes with a price, there is no escaping that truth. you're going to use platsics and chemicals etc for as long as they are available. this is an admittance to the facts. that's what we do, there is no tech that is polltion free, NONE. money won't stop us from flushing the toilet now will it.I am not willing to give up advanced technology.
now that is realistic, and everyone would agree on that. technology comes with a price, there is no escaping that truth. you're going to use platsics and chemicals etc for as long as they are available. this is an admittance to the facts. that's what we do, there is no tech that is polltion free, NONE. money won't stop us from flushing the toilet now will it.Chaos-Shaman wrote: [quote="Seriously Unserious] I am not willing to give up advanced technology.
Yeah, I took a look at those charts. The pattern I'm seeing for the temperature chart is temperatures fluctuating around a stable middle for 5-15 years, followed by a sharp raise, followed by more temperatures fluctuating around a new stable middle again, followed by another raise, and so on. If that trend continues we'd be due for another temperature "jump" soon. It may not happen this year if last year's volcanic activity's contributing to a volcanic cool-down right now. Of course, this longer stable period could also be the beginning of a new pattern too, but ATM it's too early to say that's what's happening. Based on the data I have, I'd say we're due for the next temperature "jump" sometime in the next 5 years. From the charts, these "jumps" seem to occur over a 2 to 5 year period of consistently raising temperatures at the end of which the temperatures settle out at a new higher stable average for about a decade.have a look at the charts for the past 15 years of climate data. those charts are accurate and it shows that the mean temps for the last 15 years have not budged.
I'd say that fear comes from a condition many people are in. I know I've been in that condition of pretty much permanent fear in the past, and I hated being like that. Now though, I'm definitely in a much better state of mind and it's getting better and better every day. The truth is, people who are in that state of fear will always find something to blame that fear on. The real solution is to use effective techniques to get to the root causes of that fear and handle it, then it goes away. My experience is that such "permanent" emotions a person is feeling follow a predictable pattern of transition form one to another.Chaos-Shaman wrote:i am still trying to get to the bottom of their worry, what is it they are afraid of.