Playing CSB for the first time-Will need advice

[lord soth 75]

@ Ameena

Im using a knackered* mouse (The left and right click buttons dont work) for the characters movement with my right hand
And using the touch pad thing on my laptop for actions like attack/pick things up ect. with my left hand

Iv never EVER played a video game using keyboard.
I play video games on joysticks and joypads.Its been difficult enough playing on a mouse after all these years of console gaming without the dreadful prospect of playing this section of the game on keyboard only.


*Knackered is an english term for something that is broken (For anyone who isn't English)

[Paul Stevens]

Again, the original Atari version was
not too demanding with its timing puzzles.
RTC may have made it harder. I'm not sure
why people seem to want to play the RTC
version. Perhaps they enjoy the additional
challenge. But I would recommend playing
an easier version of CSB until you are
comfortable with the dungeon itself.

Using the keyboard for movement is generally
faster than using the mouse.

Each Corbum requires that you

Spoiler

find a tiny switch and

solve the pits. Some are time-based
and some are not.

[lord soth 75]

I'm not sure
why people seem to want to play the RTC
version. Perhaps they enjoy the additional
challenge.

The RTC download was the first thing that i found when i decided i wanted to play DM again.My internet search led me to RTC before any other version.
I dont know if the timing sections are harder (i never played CSB back in the day so i have nothing to compare it to)
The main persistant problem has been whilst fighting against groups of monsters that cast spells.
The Beholders on RTC DM level 6 and level 10 were an unholy nightmare to deal with.
The same creatures on the Atari ST version i played back in 88 weren't too much of a problem.

The Vexirk lair on CSB was a hair pulling frustration battle in which i was in constant danger of having my front 2 characters getting killed with 1 fireball.
Im guessing that the dude who complied RTC figured that the monsters should have a fighting chance.
You certainly cant stand in front of any creature that casts spells in this version of the game and expect to chop away at it whilst surviving fireballs.
Fireballs to the face in this version,are as deadly as a fireball to the face in real life.

[Gambit37]

RTC was *designed* to be harder, and fixes the apparent silliness of too-easy fights in the original game. As you point out, in the originals it's way too easy to simply chop up creatures toe-to-toe and dance about them without taking any damage. George wanted to fix that in his version, and if you go back through the forum's history you'll find him discussing it and saying that he preferred the harder monsters and wouldn't be changing it. A fireball to the face would indeed be pretty critical, so from this point of view RTC is a lot more "realistic".

If you don't like the challenge it poses, then you should probably use one of the original games instead. But I doubt you need to: the fact you've got so far in the RTC versions shows how good a player you are

[beowuuf]

Monsters being able to attack you the moment you step up to them, a property only players had before, was a conscious design choice to add a bit of a challenge to the two square dance.

I don';t recall spellcasters firing killer missles at you from a range beyond sight as being a deliberate choice but an accident of giving some of them longer sight ranges to come chase you, I thought. It does not make for a challenge, it makes for an unfair grind in several places, sadly. The DM and CSB dungeons are not designed for this instant wipe out, or else there would not be kill corridors and multiple spellcasters around. Remember this problem is only compounded by groups splitting up, so a single foe - albeit in a group of four - now becomes multiple casters firing from different directions.

[Jan]

Excellent progress, Lord Soth! You're amazingly good and I mean it. In a week or two you've managed to accomplish something that would take (and that really did take) me several moths!

Re KU corbum: It really is a question of timing.

Spoiler

You have to stand on the pressure plate, it temporarily closes the pit in front of the corbum, so from the plate you simply have to run quickly and in the right moment and grab the corbum. Having your hand in the approximate position of the corbum helps a lot. If you fall down the pit, it shouldn't matter, you fall just one level and can return relatively easily and try again. Or save your game and then try it and restore your game until you finally manage it.

a fireball to the face in real life.

I think you've been playing DM and CSB for too long now.

[Gambit37]

@Beo: I didn't say it was a design choice. Whether spellcaster imbalance was intended or not isn't the point, the point is that GG knew it happened, preferred it, and said he wouldn't change it.

[Ameena]

Strangely, I would say RTC is easier than the original, so far, apart from that issue of the spellcasters - as I recently downloaded CSBWin for Ja'Ph' to play (he's not started yet, we're still on Diablo II ), I've been messing around with it and doing what I do in RTC - reincarnating Hissssa and Wuuf and playing with them. Mana is an issue (it wasn't in RTC - Hissssa could cast a Lo-Ful from the start, after waiting for the mana to refill after casting the first rune...in CSBWin I can only manage Lo-Ya, not Ful, so mana amounts must be different between the two versions), as is casting success, unless I'm just getting unlucky - loads of failed casts and only one or two level-ups so far. I just got to the end of Level 2. I dunno if I'll play it all the way through or anything, but I'm interested to see how much easier those sodding Beholders are to deal with - since "rediscovering" DM in these Internet years, I've only played RTC as, like Lord Soth, that's the version I happened to come across when I decided I wanted to play DM again and had a Google for it.

[Trantor]

Yes, very good progress there Lord Soth! You have indeed achieved a lot in a short amount of time. Keep playing, you actually don't have that far to go!

As for CSBWin vs. RTC: CSBWin should be a bit easier, mostly for the spellcasting monsters. But also, monster groups can assemble and disassemble in RTC unlike in CSBWin. So a group of 4 demons will always remain on a single tile in CSBWin and will thus be easier to dodge.
The psychic monsters of RTC that can immediately attack you after they move are a thing of the past if I'm not mistaken. They now still need some time to attack after they move. GG changed it when too many people (PaulH and myself included ) complained.

Ameena, are you sure you are playing with "DM rules" for CSBWin? DM and CSB handled reincarnation differently: In DM, reincarnation actually made the heroes a bit stronger by increasing their stats. In CSB, the stats are significantly lowered in order to not create an uber-character. If you play DM with the flag "DM rules" put off, you will have a reincarnated Tiggy with 13 hitpoints. In THAT case, yes, CSBWin will be harder; if you turn the DM rules on, you shouldn't have as much trouble.

[Darklord]

Iv never EVER played a video game using keyboard.
I play video games on joysticks and joypads.Its been difficult enough playing on a mouse after all these years of console gaming without the dreadful prospect of playing this section of the game on keyboard only.

You know it's pretty good once you get used to it, I use QWEASD and it allows you to move about lightning fast. I find mouse/keyboard combination the best even for modern games like Mass Effect 3 or Skyrim. Did you know they have to put auto aim in pad games to make people accurate enough to hit things using a pad!

Daniel.

[Ameena]

Hmm, DM rules? I wasn't aware there was such a setting - I've just been running CSBWin as-is. I'm presuming this is some kind of changeable setting in the Config file? I'll have a look later...

[beowuuf]

Not even the config file, it should be one of the windows menus

Edit: Misc menu (second one in), DM rules is down near the bottom, its most likely not ticked by default.

[Ameena]

Ohh, okay - I'll make sure to tick that next time I play then .

[lord soth 75]

RTC was *designed* to be harder, and fixes the apparent silliness of too-easy fights in the original game. As you point out, in the originals it's way too easy to simply chop up creatures toe-to-toe and dance about them without taking any damage. George wanted to fix that in his version, and if you go back through the forum's history you'll find him discussing it and saying that he preferred the harder monsters and wouldn't be changing it. A fireball to the face would indeed be pretty critical, so from this point of view RTC is a lot more "realistic".

The only times the powerful spells were an almost game breaking problem (For me personally) were during certain parts of Level 6 on DM.Fireballs from a pair of Beholders in a long corridor would hit the party without any warning (because the creatures were out of the line of sight),at the beginning of Level 10 on DM (The Deceiver,the snake Maze part),and that damn section on level 12 with the Spell Vines (in the corridor that leads to the secret area with Death Knights guarding a Skeleton key)

For the most part im actually enjoying the combat with these more intelligent creatures in RTC.
The monsters on the earlier levels of the RTC DM dungeon need to be buffed with more Hit points imo,OR their attacks should be buffed with a damage increase.
Places like the Screamer regeneration room on level 4 would be a lot more interesting if you had to work hard for that food.

All in all....Im really,really,enjoying playing these games again.I haven't been so gripped by a single player game since Fallout 3.

[lord soth 75]

You know it's pretty good once you get used to it, I use QWEASD and it allows you to move about lightning fast. I find mouse/keyboard combination the best even for modern games like Mass Effect 3 or Skyrim. Did you know they have to put auto aim in pad games to make people accurate enough to hit things using a pad!

Daniel.

Iv never been a Mouse person.The majority of games i play are fighting games on a 6 button joystick,and arcade adventures on the xbox360 and ps3 joypads.
I haven't played a third person shooter since 'Serious Sam' on the original XBOX back in 2004 or something.

Iv had a torrid time tonight trying to grab the Corbum in CSB.....So,i guess im going to have to switch to keyboard ONLY for this section of the game.

Which leads me to......



Corbum grabbing Anger

Adventure Log#14

DDD-KU
Been stuck all evening trying to grab the corbum from the alcove,but i just cannot do it!!!
Iv tried about 50 times,and everytime the result is the same......Fall into pit.
I went so far as un-equipping all of my party's posessions,but it doesn't seem to make any difference.
Im completely and utterly stuck.
Its one step back,2 to the right,and 2 steps forward..then grab! But,i cant do it.
I'll give it another attempt tomorrow night...But tbh,i feel that this is impossible.

[Ameena]

It's not impossible, don't worry . But f you're trying to use the mouse to run and grab the Corbum then yeah, you'll have trouble since you need to move the cursor from the arrows to the corbum and click before the pit opens. Doable, but very difficult, I'm sure...

[beowuuf]

Is there a final trick being missed here - like a fake pit to quickly retreat back to or a tiny button tp find to create a safe area? I know some sides are evil like that

[Jan]

Is there a final trick being missed here - like a fake pit to quickly retreat back to or a tiny button tp find to create a safe area? I know some sides are evil like that

No. As far as I remember, on KU it's just the question of timing. I usually have to repeat this for a few times because I'm just not good at fast games but if you have your hand (mouse) prepared in the approximate position of the corbum, it's doable.

[Gambit37]

It's been a long time since I did CSB, but isn't one of the pits fake (ie, it's not actually a pit and you can stand on it) -- or is that on ROS?

[Jan]

I think it's

Spoiler

DAIN

. But the more we talk about it the more I'm getting confused. It's all pretty well described in the Hint Oracle.

[Darklord]

Good luck with it, hope you manage it, if not maybe you could upload your save and let one of the other guys grab it for you? Would be a shame for your journey to end.

Either that or just leave it for now and practice using your keys for the next section, then by the time you return you'll be used to the new controls, once you get used to it, you should find it much faster.

Daniel.

[Jan]

I've looked into RTC Editor and the action of the pad (opening / closing the pit) is delayed by 12 1/6 secs, i.e. 2 seconds. It's the same in CSBWin. So if I understand the things correctly once you step off the pad you have two seconds to grab the corbum.

maybe you could upload your save and let one of the other guys grab it for you?

That's a good idea. I'll PM you, Lord Soth, my e-mail address and if you wish, you can send me the savegame and I'll look at it. But I'm still convinced that you can do it. Yes, you can! You're apparently a very skilled player, definitely better than me, and you have a large experience from action games obviously.

[lord soth 75]

Success!!

Adventure Log#15

DDD-KU

Managed (Finally) to grab my first Corbum.
I used the 5(Up),2(Down),and 3(Right) keys,and then used the click button(beneath the finger pad on laptop) to snatch the Corbum from the alcove.
It just wasn't possible FOR ME to do this section with mouse.
The touch pad on my laptop doesn't seem sensitive enough for quick grabs like this either.

But...its out of the way,and done now.

So..now i got to go all the way back to Junction of ways,and back into Dain to go back to the beginning of the DDD.
I don't know where the openings to the DDD are in KU,NETA,ROS.

-Note-
The Corbum opened a RA door,and it leads to another level.Is that level one up from the Corbums area the final level of the dungeon?

[beowuuf]

Yes it is. Some scary things around! But congratulations! You are pretty far through now, ready to defeat the last three ways

[lord soth 75]

Yes it is. Some scary things around! But congratulations! You are pretty far through now, ready to defeat the last three ways

Should i take the Corbum into the last level now,or go and get the other 3?

btw...Its just dawned on me that this dungeon should have been set in a tower,as the main goal is at the top level rather than the lowest

[Gambit37]

One only needs to imagine that it is indeed a tower -- and then it's miraculously a tower

[beowuuf]

Personally I leave them all until the end

[Ameena]

Do you have to go back to the Junction? I thought you could access any part of the DDD, once you were in it, provided you step in th right places to move various pits and walls and stuff around to open the route to the place you want to go to...I'm sure I never retraced my steps repeatedly in that way, anyway...
As for the Corbum collecting, I'd say it's best to get all four before you ascend to the top level - that way you only have to go there once .

[Trantor]

Congratulations on getting the first Corbum!

As Ameena said, it doesn't matter from where you enter the DDD. You will always enter it from the very same stairway, no matter which path you took to get there. The Ku exit was the easiest to find in it, so be prepared to spend some time in it to find the others (especially the Ros one ).

It's really your choice if you enter the topmost level after each Corbum or if you first snag all the Corbums and then enter the final level. Entering it from Ku allows you to find a very powerful weapon, though you should be fine without it. Be warned: The topmost level is super-evil, and there are so many alternative routes and hidden shortcuts that I still have a lot of trouble finding my way around it - not to mention all those traps and monsters... But I'm sure you will be fine, as you have conquered most of the dungeon already!

[Jan]

I always enter the highest level from the DAIN path - it seems the easiest to me. And, of course, I always go there with all four corbums - the idea of going there and back again four times sounds very scary.

And, I always finish each way from bottom to top (corbum), then go back to the "Base", replenish, leave some useless junk in the base and continue with other way. Although I understand that you can do all four ways in DDD at once without returning to the Junction (which of course must be much faster and easier), I've never done it like that because it just doesn't seem proper. Call me silly.

And, yeah, the idea of a tower seems very proper.

Good luck with the rest of the game! It's not that far!