Dungeon master VS legend of grimrock

[RAF68]

all in the title
you think you could say that legend of grimrock is better than dungeon master or no ???

[beowuuf]

Different! LoG is modern, with gorgeous graphics and modern gaming sensibilities, but DM has the nostalgia and the older design feel...

[Gambit37]

There's a lot you'd need to separate to be able to fairly compare the two games. For a start, they are 25 years apart, so any technical comparisons are unfair and unsound. That means you can only compare the gameplay and game mechanics. I'll write some more on that when I'm back home from my holiday.

[RAF68]

this is true it is difficult to compare these two games, even if it did not matter to compare
but if wants to have a comparison
have could be based on different aspects

example :

graphics : BEST LEGEND OF GRIMROCK
gameplay : EQUAL
life : BEST ( I find dm longer )
soundtrack : BEST LEGEND OF GRIMROCK
scenario : BEST ( I prefer the scenario of DM )

possibility of gameplay or rich gameplay :

BEST ( I think there is more opportunity in dm .... )

finding what is the best games of his two :

My opinion is that legend of grimrock is technically more successful prettier,
while dm has a greater richness and jouability possibility
dm history is more interesting I find this

my conclusion :

I prefer can be even when dm for its richness and jouability possibility
legend of grimrock but is technically very successful graphically

this is my opinion what is yours ????

[Zed5Duke]

My only concern with Grimrock is that some puzzles require quick actions but its engine prevent you from do that, so you must press movement keys in advantage (not wait until your movement is animated because then its too late) sometime you press key longer and its interpret as press it two or three times (and you bounce of fall) it take me some time to learn how move in this game. Which is actually pretty strange because I was few levels in progress and still unable to move properly like small baby or something.

Already under production is another game Might and Magic X Legacy and we will soon talk about compare this to Grimrock (am found both are pretty similar) Am even not sure which screens come from MMX or Grimrock2 so similar

[beowuuf]

There is an accessibility option that puts movement keys on the screen so you can use the mouse as in DM. Not sure if that would help in those timed puzzles?

[Magica]

I've played Geimrock , and I've finished it , and these are my thoughts :

- great graphics and Lighting
- very bad ending , I really hate the metal graphics at the last level ..
- very short , I didn't complete any sort of magic when I finished it ..
- some ugly enemies ( the green Snails , the spiders ... yek )
- little weapons ..
- little depth ..
- the champions are ugly ..

I don't give it more than 60% of the magnificence of DM .
I wish it will go beter with Grimrock 2

[ebeneezergude]

I can't believe the question was even asked......

[Lord_BoNes]

My opinion on this: If you can imagine LoG is gonna be around in 25 years... then it stands a chance against DM. But, I honestly can't see this happening. We're already talking about Grimrock 2 and Might and Magic X... so it seems that the community is slowly moving passed LoG, and it'll eventually fade into the background (like almost every game does).

I feel that good games are like good friends, it's easy to find a friend... but not so easy to find a good one, that you can still be strong with in 10 or 20 years time.

DM has already stood the test of time, and it still has multiple online communities talking about it (and making clones and such)... who here really thinks that LoG is going to stand up to it?

[Gambit37]

One can't really make such comparisons. The gaming world was very different 25 years ago, with virtually no-one sharing stuff online. It was also much more of a "golden age" with huge amounts of "got here first" innovation that you don't really see these days (most modern AAA games are highly derivative of their forebears, while DM started a whole new genre.). I agree that LoG won't be remembered the way that DM was, but that's more to do with its time period, rather than any question over its quality or worth.

[beowuuf]

Plus we're not the generation that can judge. We hold DM dearer than LoG, you need to wait five or ten years time and see if it remains in the consciousness of new gamers

[Gambit37]

Also very true. We are mostly old fogies here

[Magica]

We are the ones who make LoG possible , without our generation there will be no LoG , and thats why we have all the right to judge it .. the new gamers will not realise it at all ..

[Lord_BoNes]

I agree that LoG won't be remembered the way that DM was, but that's more to do with its time period, rather than any question over its quality or worth.

I wasn't meaning that it was of a lesser quality, more that it's judged with far higher criticism.

The games of DM's era were all about the gameplay and the replayablity... you had to be able to really immerse the player to keep them playing the game.
Today's games are pretty much all about the eye-candy... they rely on visuals and such to "hook" the player. The major problem with using visuals for immersion is that the next generation games are always gonna have better visuals and fx, so you have to compete with them for the audience's continued attention. On top of this LoG is basically an indie project, and big game companies would just throw enough money at a problem to "fix" it. I honestly imagine that LoG is gonna have some pretty stiff competition over time (especially from themselves, with LoG 2).

Plus we're not the generation that can judge. We hold DM dearer than LoG, you need to wait five or ten years time and see if it remains in the consciousness of new gamers

Which I would very highly doubt given the development of LoG 2 and M&M 10, and that's precisely my point... the new gamers will have something better that they wanna play, and focus on, instead.

We are mostly old fogies here

I'm only 29 this year (in August) so if you wanna call me "old"...


When it comes to DM, it's already lasted this long... and the audience that plays it doesn't give 2 hoots what competition comes along. We're mostly diehard DM fans... we might each play LoG for a while... however, good old DM, or the clones like DSB and RTC, drag us back everytime. We've even gone so far as to have a DnD game based around it, for heaven's sake... there's just no competing with the old favourites.

I'm not trying to be hard on LoG, but DM has already proven itself. And that's my 2 cents

[beowuuf]

I meant that because of our ages, nothing can again get its hooks in us as deep as DM did, because of when we discovered and played it. To last so long is also a testiment to it, but it's nostalgia and the power of that that I am sure keeps us playing.

Hopefully there is a new generation who are getting what we loved in DM in the newer package of LoG. Hopefully those are the people who will keep modding and supporting LoG, will hopefully find and appreciate DM as a predicessor, but most likely will be the ones to run D&D games under LoG's universe not ours.


Of course, it won't hurt of someone finally pushed one of the existing clone engine to look really good and have a DM style custom dungeons out. Adamski's Tower of Champions is one such beast. If ever Conflux gets converted somehow then it will find the audience such a deep organic dungeon deserves. And I daresay there are custom dungeons we don't know yet that will wow us under DSB

[zoom]

I did not got around to playing LoG, sorry . "So take this with a grain of Salt"
so yet I have watched some videos, and found the spore cloud effect quite nice.
Graphically, more precisely the 3D stuff of that game was what has been needed for what will possibly
even become a revival of games like that: i.e.look at new Might&Magic

For what it is worth, I don´t see how combat in LoG will be remembered as epic.
One click attacks were a bit dull back in EotB, too. ok, you got right click, a bit better, still too dull for me.
In this regard, just for die hard comparison, I don´t want to say LoG is bad or anything:
DM has stamina, slow attacks and quick attacks. Food impacts the game more than a single ressource.
There are different speeds at which you can navigate the dungeon(load, boots of speed, dex?)
Spellcasting with runes is great and very cool end game perspective with DM´s skill approach(each champion can master everything, no restriction to class)
Most of the puzzles were borrowed from dm, but you can´t blame them for that, because it is probably the nature of
the whole block approach with tick timers.

Just my 2 cent:
DM had creatures that come from the D&D world.
TSR being successful, DM got on that ship.
see: my masters of Fantasy post in cool stuff you found on the net
http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... 70#p139370

I do not see that with LoG, and yeah.

What LoG did, was showing that the game concept of dm, real time, tick based clock move in "first person perspective" is still very valid stuff
(or turn based, too, since some M&M shows soon?)

[PetriH]

I've played Geimrock , and I've finished it , and these are my thoughts :
- great graphics and Lighting
- very bad ending , I really hate the metal graphics at the last level ..
- very short , I didn't complete any sort of magic when I finished it ..
- some ugly enemies ( the green Snails , the spiders ... yek )
- little weapons ..
- little depth ..
- the champions are ugly ..

Thanks for the feedback

Quality of enemy graphics, character portraits and the ending is highly subjective so I'm not going to comment on those. However, number of items and length of the game should be on par with other games of this genre.

The games of DM's era were all about the gameplay and the replayablity... you had to be able to really immerse the player to keep them playing the game. Today's games are pretty much all about the eye-candy... they rely on visuals and such to "hook" the player.

Well, when DM was released back in 1987 it was considered to be visually ahead of its time for several years, and one of the things that really got my attention and sucked me into its gameworld was its beautiful graphics. Many complain that developers concentrate so much on the graphics today but it you look at DM and compare to other games released in the same year you can clearly see that it was a major thing for them too. Graphics is a big part of immersion.

[Lord_BoNes]

@PetriH: True point. But, what I was getting at was that tomorrows games are going to make LoG not quite as "good looking" compared to them... whereas, DM has honestly crap graphics by todays standards (I mean, come on, look at that shocking stair-step aliasing ) but it still has quite a reasonable fan-base, because of replayablity and gameplay.
I'm not saying that LoG is crap, only that I personally can't see it standing up to the same criticism... Dungeon Master IS a timeless classic (considering it was part of the inspiration for LoG to begin with), it only seems to have gotten better (because of the fans) over such a large span of time (a quarter of a century is pretty damn long ), and it's near on impossible to truly compete with such a masterful game.

[zoom]

PetriH, and the others I guess they are "quite all right"
. Also I have to correct myself:
There are very unique things in LoG, like spoiler:

Spoiler

charging minotaur..

Shame I really couldn 't play it- so I am glad they had success with LoG ! Deserves it!.


what LoG does right - or better say Almost Human does well is
a very good connection to the players. I enjoyed and read
almost all the posts on new office, how to build 3d creatures and walls,
basically all the developping posts were a unique experience for me.
Thumbs up, way up


yet besides a good job "still" room for improvement and there is "still" challenge!
( keep high quality level, since people want more more more)

I would like to give sth back to them on my side.It does not help
just to say sth is bad/insufficient without actually helping out. NEED?
But I don´t know really how. I have some ideas of diversifying combat, and using
touch controls for maybe ios(people got a bit disappointed about this I think)

while trying to post it here, I kind of realized that it is not baked well enough.
I try to conceptualize something clear and concise, and if you want to hear
about it I could send it over - same with drawings I should really focus more
on a finished thing! :O anyway please more comparison that´s what this thread is about!

[RAF68]

yes I agree with those who speak up
modern games focus heavily on the visual aspect of graphic
legend of grimrock is a very good game I once again thank its creators
but dungeon master has a soul immortal
evidence that after all his years people still remember it .......

[Seth]

I would like to add some points to this topic

LoG is now its own legend for me. I really like the guys in Almost Human resurrected this genre to the modern type of the game. I did not play any square-step dungeon for many years. There were none. Until LoG. I could play old games/dungeons in Dos-box, but those games were 10 or 15 years old.
Another great jobs was the addition of the level designer. It allows many people to create custom dungeons in the graphics of LoG.

I think LoG and DM are equally difficult from puzzle point of view. Some puzzles were harder in DM, because of graphics limitation. But LoG made some puzzles also great and hard. Plus they made some puzzle linked to players skills (arcade puzzle where you had to "catch" all the light balls for example)

I like characters and character creation/development in DM much more.
Heroes from DM are like real heroes for me. I like their portraits, I like the skills, I feel some history behind every character.
The characters in LoG are ugly, they are really prisoners types. I don`t feel any lore behind those characters. (Toorum was only char, which had some lore) Also the skills are quite boring for me.

However I`m looking forward to LoG2 (I will definitely pre-order this game) and also I`m waiting for somebody, who will mod CSB to LoG engine )

[ebeneezergude]

I really like LoG. But I was always yearning for the DM magic system throughout! The DM magic was and is a stroke of genius

[Gambit37]

I agree about the DM magic system, but LoG's take on it isn't so different when you think about it. The main issue in LoG is that you can't cast anything you don't already know about, whereas in DM you could freely experiment even if you hadn't found a spell scroll yet.

[RAF68]

yes Gambit37 it is true that you said
is that I find the most damage in Legend of Grimrock is that when his characters have chose at the beginning can not have them learn another skill
eg if have chose a warrior at the beginning can not have him learn skills wizard
while in dungeon master could have to change each character as would have
a character who at the beginning was a warrior at the end of games have dragged if he could become a very powerful sorcerer

[beowuuf]

I believe you can still discover the spells through trial and error, just not cast them until a certain level. So it does what RTC tried to do - allow for experimentation, but stop the instant fireball in level one during a replay.


Single class progression has been the backbone of RPGs like D&D, so it's a valid design choice. That DM allowed for easily multiclassing was indeed refreshing, so who knows if more multi-classing will be allowed in LoG 2.

[ebeneezergude]

Single class progression has been the backbone of RPGs like D&D, so it's a valid design choice. That DM allowed for easily multiclassing was indeed refreshing, so who knows if more multi-classing will be allowed in LoG 2.

It was certainly refreshing, I remember being so impressed with it at the time as it showed there was a different way to do character progression, less formal that the usual D&D. That you could create a rounded, multi-disciplined character for me created a mystique and a magic, it broke rules and made me want to invest in the character. It wasn't "Fighter, you gained a level: choose your next fighter skill." ... It was more mysterious, and therefore more intriguing. The first time you gained a ninja level when you innocently threw away an empty bottle, for example, and you think "aha!", and you're guessing about how your actions affect your character progression. That was awesome.

But then DM was amazing in the mystique department.... When you got a stat increasing item or weapon, or wondered how the rabbit foot worked, or trying cursed armour for the first time. I always found that finding an item, a sword, say, called "Inquisitor" which increased a stat without obviously telling you, was far more interesting than finding "sword of ultimate fighting, +1" (which is more mechanical and obvious) as you'd find in most RPGs.

It probably also helped that I was about 10.... Everything seemed cooler at that age....!

[RAF68]

gambit37 you prefer dungeon master or Legend of Grimrock ????

[Gambit37]

RAF68: I like them both for different reasons

DM was more subtle and had deeper gameplay. Grimrock is more immediate, easier to play and has much better atmosphere.

[chiefy]

the Level Editor is certainly tops but I had the same problem again that I had 10 years ago ....... UPLOADING MY DUNGEON

10 years ago I had to rely on the charity of other people on here to get my Chiefy Dungeon published, not easy to publish your dungeon back then and hey nothing has changed 10 years on

[PetriH]

chiefy: Actually quite a lot has changed If you have the game on Steam, you can simply publish your work in Steam Workshop using the Dungeon Editor (select Publish from the window menu). Currently there is 625 custom dungeons in the Steam Workshop. Alternatively there is Grimrock Nexus where you can download and upload dungeons, monsters, items, portraits and other modding resources.