Dungeon Master Forum

Gambit37 wrote:I don't think it's possible. RTC doesn't expose high level functionality like that.

hohoho, yes it does


Moderator note: Topic split from here

I think what Gambit was referring to is that you don't have access to some of the variables, and don't have a scripting language that could potentially allow you to gain access to them when you need to by writing a script to either duplicate their effect or gain access to their value to use or change it.

Still, if one is persistent, one can find a way to simulate a script using the RTC objects and actions available.

Exactly my point. The workarounds you've created are certainly clever, but they aren't using functionality as it was intended. This sort of solution is known as a hack. Nothing wrong with hacking of course, it's necessary in this case.

of course if one does not program, it offers the chance for anyone to build it, and i don't program, but if you wish to call it hacking that's fine with me. the weird part is the programmers are not hacking and that would be great if they could. just imagine the hacking that can be done.

Gambit37 wrote:Exactly my point. The workarounds you've created are certainly clever, but they aren't using functionality as it was intended. This sort of solution is known as a hack. Nothing wrong with hacking of course, it's necessary in this case.

Actually, the workaround I came up with involves using objects created by the developer for their intended usage, which is creating complex mechanics, so no, I wouldn't call them a "hack". A hack is when a user gains unauthorized access to the code to change it in some way, or finds a way to insert new code without access to the original source code, usually by running the program through a script or some such.

Seriously Unserious wrote:I wouldn't call them a "hack". A hack is when a user gains unauthorized access to the code to change it in some way, or finds a way to insert new code without access to the original source code, usually by running the program through a script or some such.

The thing you're talking about is called code injection, which is one type of hack, but far from the only one.

I'd call anything a hack that uses complex dungeon mechanics to get around a bug or missing feature in the core engine-- but I'd also disagree with anyone that was trying to imply this was a disparaging thing. Hacks are interesting and cool and clever, and they do things that straightforwardly designed dungeons couldn't.

Just about every dungeon released on these boards is full of hacks and that's what makes them do new and wonderful things. Embrace it!

Chaos-Shaman wrote:the weird part is the programmers are not hacking

Speak for yourself!
This programmer is still happily hacking away. Not on RTC any more, no, but I'd hope it's more about the spirit than the venue...

you do make a valid point, however my variable max party size method isn't exactly complex. it involves 2 counters, total, plus 1 relay and 1 action per mirror. simple.

Yeah, to me taking advantage of unintended engine effects or twisting components to breaking point are hacks. The cloning we used to do in DMute, Sophia's original Vorpal arrow, my original clickable critter/NPCs (unreleased starting HoC) etc.

Using what PAul S added to CSBwin, using RTC's later updates that allow for clean arrows and clickable things, DSB's programming, etc are just using the engine. Even if you take them in cool ways or it takes some effort I think Conflux is unique in going from a huge amount of hacks to showcasing the engine! Everything Zyx twisted out of the engine I believe Paul S augmented and legitimised. So the max party stuff is an example of RTC being flexible with its small components. It will be interesting to see if the monster AI stuff is also an example of this too.

from what I've seen of it so far, it is. Chaos-Shaman is just using the engine's built-in objects and features in a new way that no-one ever thought of before. In my mind that's not a hack, it's just using the engine as it was designed. Hacking the engine, imo is altering it in some way to make it do something it wasn't designed to do, and it also has to be an unauthorized alteration. If it was authorized it wouldn't be a hack then, just an update to the engine.

I was just trying to say I think of it as a hack, but hacks are often good things, at least to me.
If you're that dead-set against such nomenclature, call it whatever you want...

Wow, all this fuss over the semantics of a little word. Who cares! Just build cool stuff, however you like!

My point about hacks vs using the engine was actually in line with 'just build cool stuff.' But probably off topic since I keep forgetting this isn't the DSB vs RTC thread. Too distracted!

I agree, this thread isn't about which engine is better, it is about a problem I had and the eventual solution which I though I'd share with the community that helped me to come up with the solution so they could also benefit from my work, especially since it was the suggestions and answers to my question that lead to the solution. I'd actually like the engine debate posts pruned from this thread and either put in their own thread or added to a more appropriate thread. This thread is about a very specific topic and I don't want it cluttered up with O/T posts which will distract from the valuable info earlier on in the thread.

No time today, do it later tomorrow if no one else does!

thanks

Seriously Unserious wrote:from what I've seen of it so far, it is. Chaos-Shaman is just using the engine's built-in objects and features in a new way that no-one ever thought of before. In my mind that's not a hack, it's just using the engine as it was designed. Hacking the engine, imo is altering it in some way to make it do something it wasn't designed to do, and it also has to be an unauthorized alteration. If it was authorized it wouldn't be a hack then, just an update to the engine.

it is definitley not a hack, it's already in the game, although when you use black walls you could i suppose call that a hack but it's not, it's just a black wall with a mirror, and that does not fit the hack proccess. i will send you the new work SU, sorry, was real busy last week and will be again this week.