CSB Dungeon Differences when using DSB

[Paul Stevens]

In the initial Worm Room I observed two worms
uniting on the same cell. This could never happen
in the original Atari version of CSB.

In this instance, it makes little difference. I don't
know if it might be more important in other
situations. If two worms that are supposed to be
together were to separate, that could make things
much more difficult.

[Paul Stevens]

The initial party position is different.
The party is facing the door when using CSBwin.
The party faces away from the door when using DSB.

[Paul Stevens]

The worms in the initial Worm Room have rather
different attack timing. I am accustomed to entering
that room with Toadrot and slowly cleaning the place
out with Kick and Stab. Using DSB I have to change
my tactics. I cannot approach the side of a worm
and Stab it because it will turn toward me and damage
me before I can step aside.

I never understood the monster AI in the Atari version
of the game. I know that each monster has two timers,
but I don't know what they are for. I guess that perhaps
one times intervals between moves and one times
intervals between attacks. I suppose I could study this
at more length if it were useful to understand.

I recorded this using both CSBwin and DSB at 0.1 second
resolution. The time between the Worm turning toward
me and the time it attacks are:

DSB - 0 seconds.
CSBWin - average 0.93 seconds with large variation.
2,7
.4
.3
1.6
.4
2.2
.5
.4
.4
.4

[Sophia]

I never understood the monster AI in the Atari version, either. The AI is the one big section of DSB that is created entirely by "feel," because I simply couldn't make heads or tails of what the DM code was trying to do.

However, in doing so, I've also introduced a couple of enhancements. In DSB, monsters are all independent entities. They move around in groups, like in original DM, but since each monster is an independent entity they are able to split and combine groups as they need to. Monsters are also a bit smarter (or at least trickier) and will do things like quickly turn and attack instantly if you are trying to sneak around them and kick them to death before they can react.

I enjoy these AI tweaks and they are generally well-liked in the community. However, if you feel they really negatively impact the feel of CSB, I could probably add a flag somewhere to turn them off, or, at least, diminish them to the point the game "feels" more like DM.

The initial party position thing is just a bug. I'll fix that.

[Paul Stevens]

I enjoy these AI tweaks

I don't. I cannot explain why these particular
changes make it seem 'foreign' whereas changing
the monster that appears in a room would not.

But I can adapt....I had to adapt to clean out
the initial Worm Room. And it did not destroy my
experience. Therefore, I will reserve my complaints
for things that I feel more strongly about and acquiesce
to the will of the creator in this matter.

Amen.

[Paul Stevens]

Before starting my project to "Chaotisize' CSB, I
figured I better make a tour of the dungeon using
DSB. After the initial worm room, I visited the
bottom-level worm room to gather food and to
do a little training. I was inundated with worms.

The triggers for the worm regenerator are different
in number and placement. This being the first place I
visited, it worries me that this dungeon might have
many such 'errors'. These 'errors' are not necessarily
'bad', but I had assumed that I would be able to start
with a 'known'. It will be more difficult modifying a
dungeon that I don't know very well.

[Paul Stevens]

Sure enough.....a cursory examination of the
lowest level Dragon room finds different worm generator
triggers.

Positioned differently.
Operated differently.
Different limits.
The number of triggers is different.

The original allowed the monsters themselves to generate
additional monsters to regenerate themselves so that if
you did not get there early in the game you would find
lots of worms.

The original limited the the number of generations to 15.

The original had only two triggers.

My conclusion is that this CSB has been intentionally 'hardened'.
That is OK....but not what I wanted to start with.

[Sophia]

The triggers for the worm regenerator are different in number and placement. This being the first place I visited, it worries me that this dungeon might have many such 'errors'.

I compared the placement of these worm triggers in DSB CSB with CSBwin CSB, RTC CSB, and the CSB maps on dmweb.free.fr. The DSB placement corresponded with RTC CSB and with the online maps, but not with CSBwin CSB. Whether this was a discrepancy between Atari ST and Amiga CSB, or a difference between 2.x and 3.x, I don't know, but at some point they changed CSB, and one version is what CSBwin uses and the other version is what ended up elsewhere.

What to do about that, I don't know.

Of course, having pointed out changes like this, I can always go through and "reverse" them, but I might miss a few, and the result will as such probably be yet another variant of CSB.

[Paul Stevens]

Very interesting. Thank for your research.

There is no way one can reliably reverse those
changes. If someone could demonstrate that
the Amiga version (or version 3.0) incorporates
those changes, then I will shut up and be happy.
I'd like to see an original Atari or Amiga data file.
CSBuild should be able to read it. I'll start by
asking Christophe; he knows everything.

[Paul Stevens]

Update: just to confuse matters.

The map on dmweb.free.fr agrees with neither
the DSB dungeon nor the CSBwin dungeon

The dmweb map shows 3 triggers (like DSB) but it
shows a limiting counter (like CSBwin - at (10.15)).

see http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/131

[Sophia]

Oh, that's the counter? I didn't understand what that somewhat cryptic arrow from 10,15 on that map meant. It looked sort of like it's indicating a button on the wall to push, or something like that.

It'd certainly be possible to change the way the DSB dungeon works, if we decide what we want to do.

Anyway, the junction of the ways doesn't work properly at the moment, so I'll fix that next while we figure this one out.

[Paul Stevens]

Does anyone have any idea how the RTC CSB dungeon
was created? What was the source of information?
If it was that map on dmweb, then the information
was severely limited and must consist of a lot of
guesswork. Does the RTC version include the counter?

Does anyone have any idea how DSB's CSB dungeon
was created? What was the source of information?
If it was RTC's version then it can hardly be counted
as an independent witness to the original CSB.

The dmweb map looks like Bob Retelle's work. I will
make a conjecture here: His map is based on
preliminary information released by FTL for the
purpose of producing a 'Manual'. The actual release
of CSB had minor changes introduced after the book
went to press. If this conjecture is correct, then
perhaps Version 2.0 (The CSBwin version) is actually
the most accurate available in any kind of human-
readable form. (I suppose I might be biased.)
Or perhaps there was a Version 1.0 that the book
reflects accurately.

[Sophia]

DSB CSB is a conversion of RTC CSB made with Joramun's RTSB tool and then tweaked by hand. As such, you're completely correct that DSB's version is not independent. Similarity to RTC in itself proves only that there weren't translation errors. However, I was working from the assumption that the RTC version was "reliable," so if DSB's version wasn't mistranslated or otherwise broken at some point by me, then DSB got it right... which may not be a correct set of assumptions, given that we don't know where RTC's information came from. The format was already known at the time, so it might well have been data files, but it could also have been other maps of varying levels of accuracy.

Anyway, I agree with you. I'd like to see some Amiga data files, too. Or version 3. Or whatever.

[Paul Stevens]

And this hint book is different than all others yet
more similar to each in various ways.

http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/1438

[beowuuf]

A thing to note, in RTC all the triggers are party triggers, in CSB one of the triggers is an anything trigger, so after you visit that level the first time, the dragon will have the opportunity to generate worms even if you don't. So that's a difference between the two, and it sounds like DSB is different again having anything triggers?

I forget how DM/CSB works in regards to being close to a level...my understanding was that until you first visited or interacted with a level, nothing moves, after that the levels move at an increased speed. So a flood could happen, but only if you returned to the level after first being there. Am I wrong?

[Paul Stevens]

I think you are correct as far as the Atari version
is concerned. Only the level that the party is on
goes full speed....probably because the 68000 CPU
was starting to get overloaded. I do not know why
a level was idle until the party visited. It may have
been because starting all the levels simultaneously
at the beginning of the game caused a great pause.

I remember sitting on the floor in front of the TV
playing CSB from a floppy drive. Every
time I changed levels, there was a pause while the
floppy drive did its thing. I had a 512ST and the
memory was severely limited.

[Paul Stevens]

I present evidence that the DSB CSB dungeon is not
the result of machine translation:

The only tool available to read these dungeon
data files was DMUTE and I believe that thre was
no PC-formatted dungeon file for CSB. Only
disk images of the big-endian 68000 games
were available.

The "Here and There" puzzle is an example of an
error that would only be caused by a hand-translation.
The FTL dungeon had a single pressure pad at 8(31,34).
It had a delay of 10 units. The DSB dungeon has a
pair of triggers but only one has the delay. This seems
an unlikely difference if introduced by mechanical
translation. Can anyone look to see what the RTC
dungeon had?

The Mummy generator at 8(17,25) is limited by
a counter in the Atari CSB. In DSB/CSB, it is
limited by a party operated trigger that sends a
'DESTROY' message; no such thing exists in FTL's
dungeons.

[Sophia]

the DSB CSB dungeon is not the result of machine translation

Well, it is, but it's a machine translation of the RTC CSB dungeon... which it seems like it is, in turn, not the result of machine translation.

Can anyone look to see what the RTC dungeon had?

The RTC version is the same as DSB.

So, it's starting to seem like RTC CSB is not a particularly good base to use, at least if the goal is getting a port of CSB whose mechanics work like the original. I'm not sure how much the game varies in the actual player's experience, but, there are more than likely subtle and perhaps not so subtle variations.

An accurate automatic port from a FTL data file could be difficult because DSB's mechanics are somewhat RTC-like. Most significantly, DSB's messages target individual instances and not squares (like RTC, and not like CSBwin), which would be somewhat awkward to automatically translate, I think.

[ChristopheF]

I'll start by asking Christophe; he knows everything

Not yet, but I'm still working

I just checked the original MINI.DAT files from CSB Atari ST and CSB Amiga in CSBuild and can confirm that the pad at 9(25,17) in Atari was moved to 9(25,18) in Amiga.

The maps on my web site are based on the Amiga version. They may contain mistakes, though, as they were created manually and not automatically generated from the original dungeon file.

[Sophia]

I just noticed another potential annoying issue.

In CSBwin, a "Set" makes things open. This means it opens doors, pits, and false walls, as well as activating teleporters.
On the other hand, in DSB, an "Activate" (its equivalent) simply means make the thing being activated present in the dungeon. This means that it will open pits and activate teleporters, but it will close doors and false walls.
(This interpretation is, apparently, an RTC-ism that I copied without even realizing it!)

[beowuuf]

If I recall DM and CSB were built from scratch. I know there were certain DM mechanisms such as the rotating pit at the end of level 12 in DM that were made with equivalent mechanisms.

It's so long ago it's hard to remember the parallel timelines, but certainly DMute didn't let you interact with the And/Or gates. I had only sketchy notes about hex editing them for the effects (I think it was known you change whether close or open made each face activate, but the hex for it seemed a little off).

So I imagine some of the stranger interactions were aped rather than directly lifted. It's funny, but I guess since many of us were relying on CSBwin or RTC for our CSB fix, we didn't spot the difference when we finally played it as we had nothing in memory to compare it against!

Even timings, etc on the monster generators weren't known until after DM was released, I believe Gambit retro actively worked them out and those timing were then added.

[Sphenx]

I started some times ago an automated dungeon converter (from original DM) for different formats, including DSB/lua.
Maybe I could finish that work to provide you a standard DSB CSB maps from a desired CSB version ?

[beowuuf]

Damn, you just reminded me that the first time I played CSB was under PC DM, because you converted the atari .dat file to PC format (the halk ganzo barbarian custom). I just tried to open it under DMute 1.4 (which could create an RTC file, which in turn under Joramund's converter could create a DSB file) but sadly DMute won't recognise it

[Paul Stevens]

The current CSBuild can produce lua code that represents
the raw data of a dungeon. It does not do any translation
to DSB mechanics. It is 80 percent complete.
Sophia is going to attempt to massage that raw data into
lua mechanics. I think this will solve our problem rather
quickly....weeks rather than months.

Those of you with CSBwin dungeons might look forward
to the ability to greatly expand your graphics, etc. As far
as I can tell, DSB feels very much like the original FTL
code; except for monster artificial intelligence.

[Sophia]

Maybe I could finish that work to provide you a standard DSB CSB maps from a desired CSB version ?

Any help is, of course, appreciated, but starting from this pseudo-Lua is working out a lot easier because no messy parsing/translation is needed, just doing work on the data produced.

To anyone offering to help:
What we (or at least I) really need right now are lists of the database objects in CSB's internal order, put into a comma delimited lists of names of DSB object archetypes. Right now, monsters are done. Weapons and potions and such should be pretty easy to sort out based on available references, so I should be able to do that myself. I'm not as sure about floor decorations and doors and other non-pickable-uppable stuff. If anyone knows of where to find such a list, that would certainly be quite helpful in itself!

For example:

Code: Select all

"scorpion",
"slimedevil",
"giggler",
"gazer",
-- etc. etc.

[Paul Stevens]

uh....the latest CSBuild (3.29) churns out lua code with
these names and indicies. CSBuild has to know these
names to provide them in human-readable form for
users of the editor.

[Sophia]

Well never mind then.

[Paul Stevens]

Update:

CSBuild version 3.36 produces an Ascii file very nearly
adequate for DSB to create a finished dungeon. We
are working on the details, of which there will undoubtedly
be dozens. But I suspect you will be able to play
the original FTL 'Chaos Strikes Back' using DSB within a
few weeks.

Then I plan to 'Randomize' it to create
a 'Chaotic CSB'. I would like to hear any ideas.
So far, I am randomizing the locations of the
four primary keys.....The key to Ros may be found
in Neta. I am randomizing the teleporters at
the junction (swapping them randomly , actually).
I want the dungeon to appear the same for the most
part but act in unexpected (or Chaotic) ways. I am not
trying to make it more difficult.....that would
be easy to do but it is not what I want.
I simply want seasoned players to have to rediscover
how it works. And I want to be able to create any
one of thousands of dungeons, each with an identity
that players can share.

[Chaos-Shaman]

seasoned, mmmm, do i read that right... you're not going to expect what you think? if written by you Paul, i'd expect mind bending methods of expectantcies, nothing like telling us avid players we're in for trouble. better write that down

[oh_brother]

I would like to hear any ideas.

Well, this is not really a random element, but I found the idea of solving a known puzzle but getting an unexpected outcome really interesting. I think the example in question was getting the skeleton onto the pressure pads, but instead of opening the door nearby it opened a door somewhere else in the Dungeon.