Dungeon Master Forum

Saumun wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:31 pm On the cross key point, I agree that you’d expect to either get one key or all three. I would agree with Paul S that this seems like an oversight, and though that doesn’t feel in keeping with the meticulous nature of the dungeon, I can’t imagine what else it would be (maybe sheer deviousness).

From a designer view, I think the point here is clearly to give the player to choose one path out of three. The key is just here lying before the locks; these are not secret passages. There is no clue there are 'bad' paths or dead end, but sounds of roaming creatures which are different for each path. That's what the player finally chooses : which creatures to face. The way it ends shows clearly the player that each path leads to the same point, then not to think something important was missed.
The goal of each path is to collect 2 coins that give you 2 gifts in the end; and if you choose well, you can get 2 extra coins + 1 extra key (so making a 2nd path is a bonus : getting 2 more coins), then finally having the possibility to open 6 alcoves out of 7.
That clockwise level is special and kind of disturbing at first; they might have broken some rules in their general design. You also found 3 false walls to get the boots of speed; never seen elsewhere.

Paul Stevens wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:40 pm ... SAR coins ... Poleyn of Ra ...

You speak much CSB here that I had doubt we were still talking about DM level

A fair point.

I must admit, I wasn’t thinking in terms of how many coins you would have for the alcoves.
Maybe I do the designers a disservice in thinking it was anything else, given the meticulous attention to detail in the dungeon.

There’s just something about an unexplored area that nags me.

Perhaps in this case, devious is the logical result of meticulous. Puzzles get harder to solve as the game progresses, e.g. "Put the gem back" on Level 8. Imo on Level 1 they told us what to expect. The very first puzzle is just about as simple as it gets - don't step on the plate that closes the door. With the benefit of hindsight - is there really any point in just repeating something as simple as that, by putting a plate next to the green button on Level 1?

Perhaps the logical progression from that Level 8 puzzle was to ramp up the difficulty to puzzles a player doesn't know for sure ARE puzzles, and allow the game to be completed if overlooked. That way there would be something for everyone. The players that moved on to Doom and never looked back would have got just as much satisfaction as Steven Hawkings - who doubtless opened all three doors on Level 10 straight away, and possibly all four treasure rooms on Level 6

Indeed. Achieving a dungeon where players aren’t even sure whether something is a puzzle or not, is a nice trick to have if you can master it.

At level 10; I remember, one can do 2 out of the 3 ways.
At first, one has a choice at three doors. After this way is done, there is mean to do one of the two left ways. Then there is no way to do the last one.
Of course, saving games one can visit all of the three ways to see there is not much gain to do so.

Saumun - confirmation that a possible puzzle IS a puzzle would be a spoiler for some players. But I doubt the designers would have any problem with the answer to the following question becoming public knowledge:

Can you, or Paul, or Christophe tell from the code if the game provides for one or more alternative end scenes?

Not me... I’ve no idea about that stuff, but I imagine either Paul or Christophe would be able to give you an answer.

Can you, or Paul, or Christophe tell from the code if the game provides for one or more alternative end scenes?

The behavior at the end of the game is hardcoded. In Atari ST versions, some texts are displayed. In other versions, an ending animation is played.
However, you may create a custom ending like the alternate one in DM when you go back to the entrance door with the firestaff. This one has nothing special hard coded in the program, it is fully defined in the dungeon data.
Note that you may trigger the end of the game (playing the ending animation) with a specific actuator type placed in the dungeon (not used in the original DM & CSB dungeons).

Thanks Christophe. Can you confirm that the standard ending for the Atari ST version does not provide for any variation in the texts displayed? I wondered if the game provides for one ending for players interested only in completing the game, and an alternative ending reflecting the number of puzzles the player has solved or overlooked.

You can indeed change the texts as they are part of the dungeon itself (at coordinates 0,0 on the level with Lord Chaos).