Best way to level?

[MasterWuuf]

I agree, the screamer section is the easiest and safest place.

That being said, the rat level is my favorite. Get to the room with a gate you can close for safety, plus a water fountain to boot. Then a short run back to the room with at least two rats that have rejuvenated (remember to close the gate in that room or they may escape and scare you. A couple of well-placed fireballs give the rat meat that 'smokey' flavor I've always preferred.

Of course, that's a few more levels down, but my choice for 'hoarding' anything and everything, as well (why can't I cure myself of that wasted practice?).

[jayrshaw]

My wife always thought that the food options your characters have in this game were really funny - she told me that I was being mean to my characters by making them eat screamer slices, worm rounds and rat drumsticks...


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

Well, it IS possible to rush through and beat the game eating only apples, cheese, bread, and corn. It's not easy, but it's doable. Barely. You'd have to do it like a speed run.

[MasterWuuf]

I always hated eating foods that didn't show up again.
P.S. Given ZYX's knack for odd tricks on Conflux, I was surprised there wasn't salt and butter in the game. You know, to add to the veggies and bread.

[slickrcbd]

You'd should add some edible lobstermen if you're going to go there. Bonus for adding butter to the lobsterman meat ala Earthbound with the condiments.

[jayrshaw]

Hi all,

Some of you may recall my earlier post explaining that, at least in the SNES version of Dungeon Master, in-game time flows approximately twice as fast when you are in the character inventory menu screen as it does when you are in the game's normal dungeon screen. As a result, being in the character inventory menu allows your characters to recover mana and recover from their actions (e.g., War Cry, Stab, etc.) roughly twice as fast as they would if they were in the normal dungeon view of the game.

Well, I just discovered that, at least in the SNES version of the game, your characters will recover from their actions even faster if you are in the inventory screen of a character other than the character who is actually performing the actions. As an example, Halk will be able to perform more War Cry repetitions over time if you are in Hissa's inventory menu screen than he would be able to perform if you performed the actions while in Halk's inventory menu screen.

I tested this phenomenon for both the War Cry and Stab techniques. For the War Cry technique, Sonja was able to perform the War Cry action 24 times per minute from the normal dungeon screen, 50 times per minute from Sonja's inventory menu screen, and 58 times per minute from Stamm's inventory menu screen. For the Stab technique, Halk was able to perform the Stab action 28 times per minute from the normal dungeon screen, 62 times per minute from Halk's inventory menu screen, and 72 times per minute from Hissa's inventory menu screen.

I also noticed that, for some strange reason, my characters recovered mana slightly faster when I was having one character repeatedly perform actions from a second character's inventory menu screen than they did when I was having a character repeatedly perform actions from his/her own inventory menu screen. Basically, if the character was performing actions from his/her own inventory menu screen, it took roughly 8 minutes for all of my characters to recover ~90% of their mana and if the character was performing actions from a second character's inventory menu screen, it took roughly 7 minutes for all of my characters to recover the same amount of mana.

So, the bottom line to all of this is that, at least in the SNES version of the game, if you are training your characters by performing the same action repeatedly from the action menu, you want to perform the actions while in the character inventory menu of some character other than the one who is actually performing the actions.


--Jay

[oh_brother]

I don't have DM installed on this computer so I cannot test it, but I would be surprised if this was the case for the ST or Amiga versions of the games (or the clones that followed). Surely someone would have noticed... Maybe exclusive to the SNES version?

Anyway I would miss the visual feedback of the screamers or rats, or your fireball flying off, if I was training in the inventory screen. Though the title of the thread is "Best way to level", not "Most fun way to level", so I guess that is irrelevant

[jayrshaw]

Yeah, at first I was thinking the faster flow of time in the inventory menu was an intended feature. However, I seriously doubt this is the case for the slight increase in recovery time for performing one character's actions from a second character's inventory screen. I have no idea why that would speed up time, but it apparently does (at least on the SNES version of the game). Like Sophia suggested in another post, it could be due to some sort of processing issue; however, I don't see why processing a character's actions from a second character's inventory menu screen would be any easier/faster than it is from the inventory screen of the character performing the action.


--Jay

[Automaton]

I am still going through the CSBwin source code but what I can say as fact is that;

When attacking monsters, dungeon level is not relevant at all.

You get xp for the action you use, see DME

And you get experience based on the Experience class of the monster

Code: Select all

    D0W = sw((D7W * pmtDesc->word16_8_11() / 16) + 3);
    if (traceID!=NULL)
    {
      fprintf(GETFILE(TraceFile),"%sD0W = ((D7W=%d) * (Bits8_11(i26.word16)=%d)/16) + 3 --> %d\n",
                         traceID,D7W, pmtDesc->word16_8_11(),D0W);
    };

pmtDesc->word16_8_11() = experience class

A screamer's experience class is 0

So if you chop it for 100 damage on dungeon level 1, you get 10 xp for using chop and 100*(0/16) +3 xp for the damage, so 0+3 = 3

If you chop it for 100 damage on dungeon level 13, you get exactly the same.

A Giant scorpion's experience class is 9

So if you chop it for 100 damage on dungeon level 1, you get 10 xp for using chop and 100*(9/16) +3 xp for the damage, so 56.25+3 = 59

If you chop it for 100 damage on dungeon level 13, you get exactly the same.



Cheers!
Nick K.

[jayrshaw]

Interesting. That might explain why I was able to get to Pal Master (i.e., Level 5 Master) in my Healer and Wizard skills with the aid of Dane potion wisdom buffs but I'm still in the middle of getting to On Master (i.e., Level 3 Master) in my Fighter and Ninja skills. Then again, I'm using War Cry for my Fighter levels, so I wouldn't get the damage bonus that uses monster experience class anyway.

Also, I'm doing some basic calculations, and some of the numbers just don't seem to be adding up. According to Christophe's encyclopedia, War Cry should give 7 experience points per repetition. However, it takes 256,000 experience points to go from Um Master (i.e., Level 2 Master) to On Master (i.e., Level 3 Master). If my characters were gaining experience at a rate of 7 points per War Cry repetition, it would take me 36,572 repetitions or ~731.4 minutes to gain my On Master Fighter level using War Cry (assuming the action is performed from the inventory menu of the character performing the action, which is what I had been doing until last night). In actuality, however, it takes ~125 minutes for one of my characters to go from Um Master Fighter level to On Master Fighter level. Based on my previous post, I would have been performing about 50 War Cry repetitions per minute, meaning that it took me ~6250 repetitions to gain the 256,000 experience points necessary to go from Um Master Fighter level to On Master Fighter level. This means that my characters are earning ~41 experience points per War Cry repetition or roughly six times War Cry's base experience value of 7. Any explanation for why this might be the case?


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Hmm, now that I'm reading your post again more carefully, I notice the +3 experience point modifier that appears as though it might be getting added to my characters' experience when they perform a combat action regardless of whether or not they are actually inflicting any damage on an enemy. If that is the case, my characters would be getting 10 experience points per War Cry repetition. The ~41 experience point estimate of what my characters are actually earning per War Cry repetition I made in my last post would be roughly 4 times this amount of experience. If my characters are getting the 2X experience multiplier for having been attacked by an enemy within the past 4.17 seconds in addition to the 2X experience multiplier for being on Floor 3 of the dungeon, this is the approximate amount of experience they should theoretically be earning. Any thoughts or alternative theories?


--Jay

[Sophia]

I am still going through the CSBwin source code but what I can say as fact is that;

When attacking monsters, dungeon level is not relevant at all.

The dungeon level isn't relevant because the dungeon level is never used directly in the experience calculation. However, it's important to clarify that the experience multiplier, which is associated with the dungeon level, is still used and applied to the calculation.

The value in D0W that you indicated above is stored via a pointer of type ATTACKPARAMETERS, in attdep.physicalAttack.skillAdjust, which is passed to PhysicalAttackFilter. The value is not modified and passed as the third parameter of AdjustSkills; the formal parameter is called experience. Within AdjustSkills, the experience value is modified in a few different ways, including this:

Code: Select all

 if (d.pCurLevelDesc->experienceMultiplier() != 0)
  {
    experience *= d.pCurLevelDesc->experienceMultiplier();
  };
 

That means that...

So if you chop it for 100 damage on dungeon level 1, you get 10 xp for using chop and 100*(9/16) +3 xp for the damage, so 56.25+3 = 59

If you chop it for 100 damage on dungeon level 13, you get exactly the same.

This is only true if the xp multipliers of level 1 and level 13 are equal, which is not the case in DM.

[Automaton]

I stand corrected, it is indeed a little more complex in how it handles XP - I had to dig for several hours but it indeed does seem to work the way you say.

However, the screamers are quite interesting having an experience class of 0.

The most xp you can ever get for hitting a screamer is 3 which is then multiplied by "level experience multiplier" and then by 2 again if the monster attack timer is turned on.

So for the famous screamer larder on level 3 this would be (3*2)*2 = 12 xp

Like so (from the new attack log I am baking into the CSBwin source code);

Damage calculation - stage 4 - Critical hit? -----------------------

Entering DetermineMastery (hero=WAFFLE, skill=6) -------------

> Ignore Temporary Adjustments=0. IgnorePossessions=0
> Mastery of skill 6 is 4
> No crit, your skill level (4) is less than rand(64)=13

Determining XP-----------------------------------------------------

> XP = ((XP=30) * ((Monster experience class=0)/16)) + 3 = 3
> Decrement stamina by rand(4)+3 = 4
> Calculating XP for damage done...

Entering function to Adjust skills --------------------------------

> Base XP=3 target skill=[6]
> XP*dungeon level multiplier (2) = 6
> skill[6] so basicskill=[0]
> [skill >=4] A monster attacked you < 4.17 seconds ago so XP*2 = 12
> skill[0] current mastery level = 5
> skill[6] Adjusting XP: 572+12=584
> skill[6] LimitSkillExperience =584
> skill[0] new mastery level=5
> No level up
> Monster[0] at 03(00,10) {HP=162} loses 1e hitpoints
> PhysicalAttack returning D7W = 30
> Result of calling DeterminePhysicalAttackDamage = 30
> Return 1

Entering function to Adjust skills --------------------------------

> Base XP=10 target skill=[6]
> XP*dungeon level multiplier (2) = 20
> skill[6] so basicskill=[0]
> [skill >=4] A monster attacked you < 4.17 seconds ago so XP*2 = 40
> skill[0] current mastery level = 5
> skill[6] Adjusting XP: 584+40=624
> skill[6] LimitSkillExperience =624
> skill[0] new mastery level=5
> No level up

I got 12xp for htting a screamer for 30 dmg and 40 xp for using chop.

Cheers!
Nick K.

[jayrshaw]

Interesting - based on the amount of experience my characters have been earning, I would also surmise that you get the 3 points of extra experience (times any relevant multipliers) even if you are using an attack like War Cry that cannot actually inflict any damage on the enemy.

Also, it seems to vary based on which version of the game you are playing, but in the SNES version of the game I am playing, the amount of experience your characters earn can vary depending on whether or not your characters are directly facing an enemy and/or whether they are attempting to perform the action from the back row. In the SNES version of the game, your characters definitely earn significantly more experience for performing an action from the action menu when they are directly facing the enemy from the front row than they would if they performed the same action from the back row or while facing away from the enemy. War Cry is a bit different, though - in the SNES version of the game, you seem to get the same amount of Fighter/Healer experience for using War Cry while facing the enemy from the back row as you do when facing the enemy from the front row; however, you gain less Fighter experience and no Healer experience at all for using War Cry while facing away from the enemy (even if the enemy is actively attacking your flank while you are performing your War Cry repetitions).

Also, despite the fact that my characters would earn significantly more Ninja experience per repetition by using "Stab" directly at screamers from the front row (my guess is twice as much), I have found that they can actually earn Ninja experience faster over time by performing Stab at the air or a wall while a screamer flanks my party from the side due to the sheer number of repetitions of the action you can perform from the character inventory menu (where the speed of time is approximately doubled). This method of gaining experience also benefits from the fact that you don't have to periodically clean up after dead screamers and temporarily leave the room to regenerate new ones. Finally, it can take a longer amount of time than you might think for a group of newly-generated screamers to actually attack your party, so you would also frequently lose the 2X multiplier for being attacked by an enemy within the past 4.17 seconds if you were earning experience by attacking/killing/regenerating the screamers instead of just attacking nothing while letting them flank you.


--Jay

[Automaton]

We, my ongoing search into the CSBwin source continues and after progressing my party to = master priests I can make the following observations;

Stam, 0 mana, no levels in priest or wizard - down to the winged key door - took 22 mins to get << master priest and expert wizard with spells giving about 2k-2.5k xp per spell.

After a few more levels, I can confirm the best place to level priest and wizard levels (by far) is by the black flame on level 12 at 27,48

How to get there?

Complete level 10. Go downstairs to 11. The first room is the 4 invisible pit room turned on by the pad at 32,45 (you have to step on it to get in the pit room. Fall or climb down one of the invis pits. Welcome to XP nirvana.

This room is a catch for the invisible pits with a teleporter bringing you back to level 11 and as such there are no monsters here apart from a single black flame. 1 mon fire shield will render you almost invulnerable, 2 definitely will.

Standing next to it will get your monster attack timers on and the level also has the highest dungeon level multiplier. Mon level difficulty 4 spells will net you +5000 xp per cast. Or the equivalent of gaining neophyte, novice, apprentice, journeyman with every single cast. Or 25 spells from 0 - << master. And for those of you curious, 1638 casts to arch-master

You can also get some rushed fighter xp by using jab on the vorpal blade(s) for 132 xp a pop. And of course, black flames never die, they are the terminators of the DM world.

Using climb down on the rope is easy ninja xp. It's worth 180 xp a pop if you are standing next to the flame. How easy? 4:03 Expert ninja (605740 xp). 4:06 << Master ninja (123360 xp)



Cheers!
Nick K.

[jayrshaw]

Right - there was someone on an earlier thread called "New Four-Class Archmaster" explaining that this is the location where he was able to train to Archmaster level. From your post and other discussions of the topic, I think I agree that this is probably the easiest place to gain experience in the game. The main problem with this training location is that by the time you get there, you've already essentially completed the entire dungeon!

I also just verified that there is apparently no recovery time for earning Ninja experience using the "Climb Down" action with the rope. I just compared this with performing the "Stab" technique from the character inventory menu and verified that you can perform "Climb Down" repetitions quite a bit faster than "Stab" repetitions. "Climb Down" does consume a lot of stamina, though, so you would probably have to use Ma stamina potions periodically if you train your characters using this technique.


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

The main problem with this training location is that by the time you get there, you've already essentially completed the entire dungeon!

Actually, I probably spoke a bit too soon. Since you can access this part of Floor 12 before tackling the difficult parts of Floor 11 and Floor 6 of the dungeon (not to mention the dragon and Chaos), you definitely do still have some of the more challenging parts of the game left to go if you access the Floor 12 training area as soon as you are able to.

That said, the screamer room on Floor 3 of the dungeon still isn't bad if you want to prepare for the Floor 4-10 part of the dungeon. I also try to get some training in with the screamers on Floor 1 of the dungeon to get my characters in decent enough shape to make it to the screamer room on Floor 3 without too much difficulty. The million worms you have to face on Floor 3 on the way to the screamer room aren't total pushovers, after all, and if you're like me, you'll also want to kill the four groups of worms blocking the way to the stairway leading to the water fountain at the beginning of Floor 4 of the dungeon.


--Jay

[Phoenix]

I also just verified that there is apparently no recovery time for earning Ninja experience using the "Climb Down" action with the rope. I just compared this with performing the "Stab" technique from the character inventory menu and verified that you can perform "Climb Down" repetitions quite a bit faster than "Stab" repetitions. "Climb Down" does consume a lot of stamina, though, so you would probably have to use Ma stamina potions periodically if you train your characters using this technique.

This isn't a problem because you are training Priest at the same time. With CSBwin you can alter the speed of the game to "Quick as a bunny" too further shorten the training time. Since actions can be mapped to keys in CSBwin, all you need to train Ninja with the rope is to hold down a single button until your stamina goes below 10. Two MON stamina potions to restore stamina, and you can repeat the process. This makes it the quickest and easiest way to level Ninja and Priest at the same time. You will consume more food and water while training.

[jayrshaw]

Right - sounds reasonable enough for PC versions of the game, but, unfortunately, the training method you described won't work on the SNES version of the game that I've been playing....


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

BTW, black flames are not unkillable, you just need to use vorpal blades, des ew, dispell, or fuse on them.

[Automaton]

BTW, black flames are not unkillable, you just need to use vorpal blades, des ew, dispell, or fuse on them.

Ahem, I meant in the sense that... ...you can't kill them, just temporarily make them go out.

Cheers
Nick K.

[MasterWuuf]

BTW, black flames are not unkillable, you just need to use vorpal blades, des ew, dispell, or fuse on them.

Haven't tried the 'fuse' on any of them. It seems that option only comes with the firestaff. Now I'm going to, once again, be tempted to make a run through DM.