Elven Boots vs. Actual Foot Armor?

[jayrshaw]

Hi everyone,

Just writing to see if any of you have an opinion on whether it is advisable to use Elven Boots for the extra maximum load capacity bonus even though there are other foot armors available with significantly higher defense power. If I try this, will the character I have wearing the Elven Boots take significantly more damage from being hit in combat than he/she would if he/she were wearing actual foot armor (e.g., Hosen, Foot Plate, etc.)?


--Jay

[Ameena]

Personally I don't really notice a huge amount of difference in damage taken with any armour. I'll use things that have a visible stat difference (like the Elven Boots to boost my Strength or whatever) because that's something I can actually make use of (eg higher capacity means I can carry more stuff before going into the yellow and having to dump some stuff).

[jayrshaw]

Yeah - I think I mainly stuck to using actual foot armor in my previous playthroughs, but I was thinking of using the Elven Boots this time around for the extra carrying capacity. I might just give them to one of my characters that I normally keep in the back row. If the character I have using the boots doesn't see much combat, there isn't too much of a downside to using them, I guess...


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

All your champions should get a turn in the front row to work on fighter levels. It is the only way to make them tougher AND permanently increase carrying capacity.
On the first two levels you should have your weaker champions be in front except when fighting the rockpiles.
Use daggers or punches and kicks to fight screamers, and use thrown items or range weapons to deal with mummies and trollins, although you can supplement the later with poison bolts and the former with a fireball). If a monster closes take a stab at them and retreat immediately (best done from the side or behind where both can attack).
Learn to swap ranks quickly. The rockpiles, worms, and couatls might be too much for your weaker champions, but on level 5 they should be able to handle swamp slimes. On level 6 have your weaker champions attack the skeletons, you can use shield spells/potions if they are taking too much damage (should only be necessary for really weak champions like Tiggy, Boris, or Gando who have the mana to spare). Wasps are hard to fight with weapons, I just poison cloud them. Wizard eyes are the tough ones there.

[jayrshaw]

No worries - I do train fighter levels for all of my champions, but usually I have two in the front and two in the back for an extended period of time (usually until the ones in the front row get ahead by a fighter level and I rotate the ones who have been in the back forward for their turn). I generally put my better armor on the two champions that I currently have in the front row and switch their armor with the characters in the back row at the same time that I rotate the characters after gaining a fighter level - I was just figuring I could do the same with the Elven Boots and make sure that whoever happened to be in the back row was always wearing them.


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

Honestly, I don't really notice that much improvement using the "plate" type armor vs the "mail" type armor and hosen. Which is not that dramatic over leather armor and boots.
Heck, regardless of what we know now from looking at raw game data, nobody I knew who played the game before the internet (read before the mid '90s) could discern a difference between leather boots and suede boots beyond cosmetic.
If you're taking somebody like Chaini or Tiggy, the extra carrying capacity probably worth the trade-off. If you're taking Stamm or Daroou, you might as well go for greaves of Darc (or at least Lyte since I often escew Darc armor even with Halk Stamn Sonja and Leela.
More well rounded champions are harder to choose for.

[jayrshaw]

Thanks for the advice - I'm using a pretty strong group (Halk, Hissa, Sonja, and Stamm), but I always seem to want even more carrying capacity. I might just try giving the Elven Boots to whoever happens to be in the back row at a given time like I mentioned in my last post.


--Jay

[Ameena]

When I used to play with four characters I would occasionally swap the back two into the front to fight stuff like Screamers and Skellies, which weren't particularly harmful, just to boost their Fighter levels (and therefore their hp) a bit. But since I switched to playing with only two characters some years ago, this has ceased to be an issue . I can even turn sideways to avoid projectiles, though rarely remember (or have time) to do so when it becomes necessary .

[jayrshaw]

Yeah - I thought about trying the game with a party with fewer than four characters, but I haven't even finished the game with a party of four yet. I think the main drawbacks to using a smaller party are that your party has less capacity for casting a large number of spells at a given time and that you lose the option of switching your front row characters out with the back row characters when they become wounded (sort of like tag-team wrestling). Then again, I guess you could have one character in the front and the second character behind him/her; the drawback to that approach is that the character in front would take all of the damage from any enemies you encountered, though.


--Jay

[Ameena]

I would say try to finish with a full team first, yeah - probably best for at least your first playthrough so you have more inventory space for all the crap you end up hoarding and then finding you don't actually need and can therefore skip on the next run-through .

While it might be nice to be able to ready four Fireballs at once, consider that with only two people, there's basically the same amount of monsters and stuff being fought by half the people, therefore those people are getting double the exp as there aren't two other people to share it with. So they should level up faster and be throwing more powerful spells/making stronger attacks, so you probably won't need four Fireballs when two will do .

I've never switched characters around when some became injured - if that happens I normally just run away and shove some health potions down their throats - each character keeps an empty flask in their off-hand and I make potions as I need them. So I (with a two-person team) only ever have two flasks in total for the whole game (one of which I start with, because my second character is always reincarnated Wuuf). Generally my approach to combat is to get hit as little as possible, which isn't usually too difficult unless I get stuck in a corner/dead end and surrounded or am fighting creatures with ranged attacks in a narrow corridor where I can't just sidestep out of the way. I mean, with only two characters I could turn sideways instead to avoid a ranged hit, but see previous post about not remembering in time/reacting quickly enough for that to be viable most of the time . Generally I'll make strong use of button-operated doors to force monsters to back away from me instead of hitting me (close it on them so they retreat if it doesn't kill them before they have a chance to do so), and if there's only one square's worth of monsters after me and I have space I'll use the step-dance wherever possible. It's why I enjoy fighting Dragons, because they're so easy to kill that way and I take no damage .

[jayrshaw]

Yeah - I have to admit that I haven't been very tactical when facing monsters in the dungeon. I generally just use fireballs or keep chopping at them and just let them deal damage to me instead of trying to move out of the way (except on the earliest floors, when I tend to throw a lot of stuff at the monsters who are vulnerable to that). I do end up having to heal a lot because of this, though...


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

Thanks for the advice - I'm using a pretty strong group (Halk, Hissa, Sonja, and Stamm), but I always seem to want even more carrying capacity.

I'm the same way, I rarely take any but the champions with the most carrying capacity (Halk, Stamm, Hissa, Sonja, Daroou), Although I occasionally will try Halk Stamm Sonja and Leela for a low-mana start challenge.

I've never switched characters around when some became injured - if that happens I normally just run away and shove some health potions down their throats - each character keeps an empty flask in their off-hand and I make potions as I need them. So I (with a two-person team) only ever have two flasks in total for the whole game (one of which I start with, because my second character is always reincarnated Wuuf). Generally my approach to combat is to get hit as little as possible, which isn't usually too difficult unless I get stuck in a corner/dead end and surrounded or am fighting creatures with ranged attacks in a narrow corridor where I can't just sidestep out of the way. I mean, with only two characters I could turn sideways instead to avoid a ranged hit, but see previous post about not remembering in time/reacting quickly enough for that to be viable most of the time . Generally I'll make strong use of button-operated doors to force monsters to back away from me instead of hitting me (close it on them so they retreat if it doesn't kill them before they have a chance to do so), and if there's only one square's worth of monsters after me and I have space I'll use the step-dance wherever possible. It's why I enjoy fighting Dragons, because they're so easy to kill that way and I take no damage .

The downside to using the closing door trick is you get a lot less XP. I recall as a kid when I first beat the game I'd use it at every possible opportunity and I'd be lucky to finish the game with LO Master anything, but if I avoided the closing door trick I'd wind up with at least UM master everything. Well, sometimes the ninja levels would lag behind at LO master.
On the other hand, those portcullis style grated doors you can slip UM level poison spells through, and occasionally shoot arrows (for some reason throwing the arrows rarely works) or throw darts through (throwing stars, rocks, and daggers usually just bounce off). Great for safely attacking monsters. Just don't toss a MON level fireball, it stands a better chance of destroying the door.
The doors are useful for separating you from the monsters to rest and heal up, only the monsters that cast spells (wizard eyes, vexiriks, and materalizers) can open them.

[jayrshaw]

Well, I finally got to the part of Floor 3 where you find the Elven Boots, and I discovered that they don't increase carrying capacity quite as much as I had been expecting (they raise one of my character's carrying capacity by 4 KG, and I was hoping for something more significant like 8-10 KG). I guess it ends up being more like an extra 5 KG of carrying capacity when you take into account that the Elven Boots weigh 1 KG less than the Suede Boots they would be replacing (or even more than that once the alternative is hosen, foot plate, or something heavier than those). Still, I might end up going for the for the foot armor, after all, since the bonus carrying capacity is less than I expected.

--Jay

[slickrcbd]

If it is a choice between foot plate or the elven boots, I'd base that decision on the champion's strength. Since you have strong ones, go for the foot plate.
If it a choice between leather or suede boots or elven boots for somebody like Tiggy or Wuuf, go for the elven boots. The armor benefit is insignificant, and the extra weight probably helps more as your champion is probably too weak to carry the heavier stuff. You might want to consider not using anything stronger than mithril or even leather for the leg and torso slots.

[Ameena]

I tend not to bother with plate at all, and just stick with lighter stuff/stuff that gives visible stat boosts. I don't see any huge difference in protection levels of most armour (I once tested shutting myself in a door with and without a helmet and the difference was about 3-4 points of damage or something ) and I'd rather save my carrying capacity for important stuff like about twenty Screamer slices .

[jayrshaw]

Yeah - I have noticed that the heavier armor in this game tends to be way heavier than the other items you normally carry around on your characters. I recently put the various mail armor items that you find on Floor 2 and Floor 3 of the dungeon on Halk (the character who is in my first character slot), and I find that his current weight is now significantly higher than everyone else's. He isn't actually overloaded right now, but he probably would be if I gave him another chest or two full of screamer slices or other miscellaneous items. I can only imagine what an impact the actual plate armor has on your characters' weight level once you start wearing that!


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

I don't usually bother with heavy armor for anybody except for Halk, Stamm, Sonja, Hisssa, or Daroou. Those are the only five I would consider putting Darc armor on. I might consider putting Lyte armor on Azizi, Leif, Hawk, Linfas, or Alex, maybe even Iaido, but mostly I'd stick with medium armor. For Tiggy, Wuuf, Boris, Chani, Wu Tse, and Syria, I usually wind up sticking with leather or at best the mirthril armor for Syria or Wu Tse (but still leather or elven boots).

The weight trade-off is just not worth it.

[Automaton]

Interesting topic. I understand the confusion with armour (and only recently worked it out for myself with the help of the DM encyclopedia).

What I describe below is about dmg mitigation once you are hit. Someone more knowledgeable can maybe chip in on how it decides if it hits or not and whether armour affects that.

Problem is, of all the mobs in DM, 10 of them do "sharp damage", only 7 do normal damage, 3 do magic damage (wizard eye, vexirk, materializer), 2 do psychic damage (ghost, screamer) and flame elementals doing pure fire and gigglers doing none.

So when damage is calculated a majority is not being checked against your armour value, with some real weirdness like, the buckler being the best shield against sharp attacks (5/7) and the mithril mail and flamebain being the best chest pieces (both 7/7).

From the Dungeon Master Encyclopaedia:

Damage type
This value defines what kind of attack the creature uses. This value affects how the inflicted damage is computed:
00 No damage: the creature does not attack champions. This value is set for the Giggler. This value is used elsewhere for damages when stamina is 0.
01 Fire damage: the attacked champion's 'Anti-Fire' characteristic is used to compute damage.
02 Critical damage: The 'Armor Strength' value of the attacked champion's armor is used to compute damage, but its value is halved. This is never used in the original game but can be used in custom games. This value is used elsewhere for example when bumping in a wall.
03 Normal damage: The 'Armor Strength' value of the attacked champion's armor is used to compute damage.
04 Sharp damage: The 'Sharp resistance' value of the attacked champion's armor is used to compute damage.
05 Magic damage: the attacked champion's 'Anti-Magic' characteristic is used to compute damage.
06 Psychic damage: the attacked champion's 'Wisdom' characteristic is used to compute damage.

00 Giggler
01 Black Flame
02 -
03 Swamp Slime Ruster Stone Golem Mummy Trolin Water Elemental Demon
04 Giant Scorpion Pain Rat Rockpile Skeleton Couatl Magenta Worm Giant Wasp Animated Armour Oitu Red Dragon
05 Wizard Eye Vexirk Materializer
06 Screamer Ghost

So moral of the story - If your fighting animated armours, get that buckler back out

[jayrshaw]

That's really great information, Automaton - thanks for posting it! I had no idea that the armor's basic defense value was totally ignored for "sharp" attacks. I was thinking that the armor's basic defense value was just modified somehow based on the armor's "sharp" resistance value for enemies with "sharp" attacks. I also did not know that ghosts and screamers had their own special damage category that can be reduced based on your characters' wisdom values; maybe this is why screamers generally started inflicting little to no damage against my characters around the same time that I started using Dane potion wisdom buffs!


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Here's another question - does the shield spell only work against enemies with normal attacks, or is it effective against "sharp" attacks, as well?


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

I also did not know that ghosts and screamers had their own special damage category that can be reduced based on your characters' wisdom values; maybe this is why screamers generally started inflicting little to no damage against my characters around the same time that I started using Dane potion wisdom buffs!

Oh, I should also mention that if you buff your characters' wisdom values high enough, you will encounter a phenomenon where a screamer can attack and hit a character but inflict zero damage. Basically, you'll see the screen shake immediately after the screamer attacks as if your character was hit, but the indicator notifying you of how much damage was inflicted won't come up. I was really surprised the first time I saw this and initially thought it might be a bug, because I did not recall it ever happening during prior playthroughs. Now I see that my characters' buffed wisdom values were apparently just reducing the damage inflicted by the screamer to zero.


--Jay

[Automaton]

Here's another question - does the shield spell only work against enemies with normal attacks, or is it effective against "sharp" attacks, as well?


--Jay

Good question. I don't know. I've asked Paul (on the CSBwin board) for some clarification here, and I've also starting logging my CSBwin to try to get more info. I also found some contradicting info of my initial post which I am trying to clear up. I've taken a cursory look at the source code as well, I'll keep digging.

What I did learn (and never knew) was that how loaded your character is has a (slight) negative effect on you chance to hit monsters.

[jayrshaw]

What I did learn (and never knew) was that how loaded your character is has a (slight) negative effect on you chance to hit monsters.

Yes - I actually read an old post on this forum delving into the actual formula for how dexterity and load / current load factor into your chance of hitting a monster. If I recall correctly, the person who posted the formula also said that the same formula also factors in to some other game mechanics, as well.


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Yes - I actually read an old post on this forum delving into the actual formula for how dexterity and load / current load factor into your chance of hitting a monster. If I recall correctly, the person who posted the formula also said that the same formula also factors in to some other game mechanics, as well.

Here's a link to the thread I mentioned (guess you already knew about it since you were apparently the original poster!):

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=23889


It looks like load can actually factor quite a bit into the calculation for what is described as the "quickness" stat in the thread ("quickness" is apparently used to calculate your chance of hitting enemies, dodging enemy attacks, and possibly some other things). If I'm reading the formula correctly, your "quickness" will be reduced by around 50% if you are approaching your maximum load value...


--Jay

[Automaton]

Indeed.

I like to think, that it's some kind of sign that my brain and what I find interesting has remained congruent over the years.

When you posted about having read it somewhere, I was interested, "I'll find that post and see what was said!" I told myself.

Then you find the link to the thread.

Then you tell me it's my thread from 16 years ago!.. ..and it is!

Priceless

[jayrshaw]

Yeah - I can only imagine what message board posts I was making 10-20 years ago, since I haven't read them for so long...


--Jay