Important Items to Keep With You Instead of Discarding.

[jayrshaw]

Hi all,

I'm just about finished with Floor 3 of the dungeon (i.e., the floor with the magenta worms). I usually spend some time training in the screamer room near the end of Floor 3 before I proceed, and I also usually discard a lot of my excess items at around that point in the dungeon. During past playthroughs, I've tried to keep items that are sometimes used for locks/puzzles (e.g., coins, mirror of dawn, etc.) with me instead of discarding them. However, I've noticed by casually perusing the maps on Christophe's web site that, in most cases, the items you need to complete puzzles and open locks on any given level of the dungeon seem to be available on that same level of the dungeon. Are there any exceptions to this? Are there some items that I would definitely be better off taking with me down into the lower floors of the dungeon instead of discarding? Thanks in advance for your assistance!


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

The Compass is something you will want if you want to return to level 2 for water (which you probably will need as there is no water on levels 3 or 4), and it is very helpful for mapping or following a map.
You will want a single gold key to open the "shortcut", but I don't recall any more need for them. The same for a gold coin, although you can pick up another on level 5. Any copper coins you have kept will come in handy on level 11, but you usually use them up.
I can't recall ever needing a gold coin past the entrance to level 6, only silver and copper. I also can't recall using gold keys after level 4.
A blue gem is needed at the start of level 6, as is the bow (which you won't get a replacement for until much later) and a mirror [of dawn]. Other than that, I can't think of much else from level 3. Most of these except the bow you can also get on levels 4-5.

As for weapons, the saber you get from The Matrix is a decent weapon once you have an apprentice or journeyman fighter (although the robes are not, go for leather jerkins/pants or at least elven doublet/huke instead), but below that level the "slash" option is sub-par and the "parry" is terrible. Many people discard it because their reincarnated champions are unable to "melee" at the time they pick it up.
It gets eclipsed by other weapons like Delta, but it and the rapier are really good mid game weapons, although the axe is better. Falchions and Swords are good for beginner fighters (axe is better), but once you can melee with the saber or thrust with the rapier you are better off with those. You generally can't melee or thrust until after you can chop with the falchion or sword.

[jayrshaw]

Thanks for the advice - I had totally forgotten about needing the bow for the riddle room! I started out with an extra axe since Stamm is one of my champions, so I've mainly been going at things with two axes since I picked up the second axe at the beginning of the worm floor.


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

You'll want everybody to have ranged weapons available. They are especially useful against Mummies, Trollins, skeletons, vexiriks, and gigglers (though I mostly poison bolt or fireball the last one). They can help against scorpions, rusters, swamp slimes, and oitus.
Shooting an arrow is more effective than throwing it, same for rocks, although for some reason I really like the throwing stars but that is just a personal preference based more on visual appeal than game mechanics.

Oh, one other thing. Keep the daggers. They aren't just useful as thrown weapons, but they are the best melee weapon for working on ninja skills and you get two at the very start of the game on level 2 (and a couple more later). Equip your weakest champions with daggers and have them melee screamers. Have everybody take a turn meleeing them with daggers. Heck, I often do the same with swamp slimes or other monsters that aren't too tough like couatls from time to time.
Later on, I tend to work on my priest and ninja levels by fighting pain rats with daggers while casting shield spells or drinking shield potions to minimize the damage taken if I can't step-dance them. Good way to replenish my food while getting ninja levels back up.

[jayrshaw]

Yeah - I definitely like keeping the daggers around because I use "stab" to train my ninja skills. I was on the fence about taking projectile weapons with me, but I guess you're right - I might as well take them since they don't weigh that much (except for rocks), and you can't exactly use your quiver spaces for anything else...


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

They come in handy when you encounter mummies and trollins again and help against scorpions (although not as much as fireballs).

Oh, upon rereading I meant to say that couatls are too tough to take on with daggers, but I phrased it badly and I can no longer edit the post. I usually just cast 3 poison bolts or fireballs at couatls.

[Ameena]

As far as I can remember, the list of items that are acquired on one level of the dungeon to be used on another are the mirror, bow, blue gem, and a gold coin for the Riddle Room, and then the three Ra keys and the Master Key for acquiring the Firestaff. And the Firestaff itself, of course. Oh, and I suppose the winged key if you want to use that but it's not really essential. And the skeleton keys, though they mostly get used on the level you find them, except that since there is one key too few I just skip unlocking Level Twelve (because sod going back there once I've got the Master Key ) and instead open up Thirteen with Twelve's key. I only really use the Central Stairwell to nip back to Level Nine and have a drink from the fountain around the corner, and maybe to check if the Rat Room has respawned while I'm there.

I've never really used ranged weapons - too much faff of carrying them around, losing them in monsters (at least till said monster is dead), and having to pick them up again afterwards (not to mention swapping from a melée weapon to a bow and back if you're using one). I'd rather just chuck a Fireball. I may throw some stuff very early on, as in Level Two, to speed up killing the Mummies and Screamers while I can't really do much more than a Lo-level Fireball, but I'd rather get the spellcasting practice and be better at that. Ninja tends to get entirely neglected till I'm on about Level Nine where I practice throwing with a heavy item (usually a chest) repeatedly - since my Ninja skill is so crap it just lands immediately in front of me so I can spam-click throwing it. When their skill hits Journeyman level, that's about the point where the chest actually travels one whole square and I have to take a step to pick it up again. So I switch to my other character (I only have two) and repeat the process. And that's it, Ninja training done and on I go with the game - that's the only time I stop and grind out any kind of training. Everything else comes naturally as I work my way through the dungeon, and then some more when I carry the party through into CSB.

[jayrshaw]

Thanks again for the advice, guys! Like I said, I was sort of on the fence about the projectile weapons. Like slickrcbd says, they do work really well against enemies like trolins and mummies that have low defense but a high enough (and fast enough) attack to be a nuisance. On the other hand, though, by the time I've finished training in the screamer room on the worm level, my characters can cast decent fireballs without much trouble, too, and those are usually a feasible alternative to the projectile weapons. Since the projectile weapons mainly only take space in my quiver (where you can't place any other items) and typically don't weigh too much (except for rocks and bows/slings/etc.), I'll take them along for the time being. If I find out that my characters are overloaded later on in the dungeon, I may drop them at that point.


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

Honestly, I often wind up discarding rocks and the sling once I start filling up my quiver with other items because they weigh too much.
Remember I listed two different groups of enemies that missile weapons can help with? Well they are considerably less effective against the second group, and I often don't bother except for maybe throwing the odd item lying around. For instance on level 10, I'm more inclined to throw falchons and wooden shields at scorpions, skeletons, and screamers than missile weapons. Of which I've noticed that a falchon seems as effective as a dagger.
Note that I don't generally carry those items around for use as missile weapons, I just chuck them if they are handy by picking them up off the floor.

[jayrshaw]

Well, my characters don't have a weight problem at the moment (three out of four are still wearing only leather armor items), so I'll keep the sling and rocks for the time being. I was thinking that I would just reassess the situation after completing each floor and discard items that I no longer needed or that were adding too much weight to my party's load near the stairway leading to each new level of the dungeon. That way, if I ever decided that I wanted the discarded items again, I would know to look around the stairway at the end of each dungeon level.


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

Call me juvenile, but I tend to take "throw it away" a little too literally in this game.
It helps train ninja levels.

[Ameena]

Once you start unlocking the Central Stairwell (from Level Eight downwards, if you can find the keys), you can dump your leftover crap in there and it makes an easy place to return to from the deeper levels if you decide you'd like to go back for something.

[jayrshaw]

Right - I do recall there being a shortcut back to the earlier levels, but I didn't remember when it first became accessible. How far back in the dungeon can you get to using the central staircase? Also, I think I recall someone mentioning something about there being one fewer keys available than the number of locks around the central staircase - is there any particular way most people deal with that problem?

I've been trying to use Christophe's maps to help me navigate the dungeon, but I'm finding that the dungeon in the SNES version of the game has a slightly different layout than the maps in some areas (for example, the maps show the teowand on Floor 3 of the dungeon in an empty alcove, whereas in the SNES version of the game it is in an enclosed room with regenerating mummies).


--Jay

[ChristopheF]

My maps were built with the PC version, not the SNES where there are many differences as you have discovered.
You may check the maps here (they are not perfect either, these are images extracted from the game itself, but still not accurate compared to the actual dungeon): http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/934
You can also use the maps in the hint books available as PDF here (even if the books are in Japanese language): https://mocagh.org/loadpage.php?getgame=dmsfc

[jayrshaw]

Thanks for the additional information, Christophe! From what I have seen, your maps for the PC version of the game still seem to be the best option out of what is available (there are differences, but most of them aren't too glaring). I actually made my own maps on graph paper when I first started playing this game, but I lost those a long time ago...


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

Right - I do recall there being a shortcut back to the earlier levels, but I didn't remember when it first became accessible. How far back in the dungeon can you get to using the central staircase? Also, I think I recall someone mentioning something about there being one fewer keys available than the number of locks around the central staircase - is there any particular way most people deal with that problem?

The Central Staircase goes from levels 8 to 14. You are one key short from being able to open it on every level.
I usually skip opening it up on level 10 as there is no reason to return to that level. I open level 11 so I can pick up an extra copper coin in the dragon's lair and return to use the last item slot machine (also try to keep a copper from level 3) and also to return to level 9 and get some more water. Otherwise you can probably skip level 11 as well. Level 12 I open because by then you have acquired the last RA Key and it is the easiest way to get back to level 7 if you've opened level 8. I often make a stop on level 9 to restock either before or after tackling level 7 (or both, no reason not to. Only costs a bit of time, and since the only thing time costs is food and water and you have unlimited water on level 9 and virtually unlimited drumsticks...).
Level 13 and 14 you'll want to open so you have more options fore escaping and resting. Also that you use the winged key instead of the skull key on level 14.

At least that is my rationale. You can skip level 11 if you don't care about coming back with a copper coin.

As for the SNES version, I tried it once with an emulator, but I didn't care for the interface as my brain was wired for the Apple IIGS version. Same with Tetris on my touchscreen phone after playing on a keyboard or Game Boy for decades, I was too tactile.

[jayrshaw]

Thanks for the additional info, slickrcbd!


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

I just finished Floor 4 of the dungeon, and I'm finding it somewhat amusing just how many items my characters are carrying just because they might potentially be useful for puzzles and/or locks on later floors of the dungeon. My characters currently have 1 Ra Key, 6 Gold Coins, 1 Silver Coin, 2 Copper Coins, 3 Blue Gems, and 2 Mirrors of Dawn - this is enough stuff to occupy a good portion of two of my characters' inventories!

Luckily, I'm using the treasure chests you can find at various places in the dungeon to significantly expand my characters' inventories. I would not want to try playing the game using only the limited number of inventory spaces your characters have before taking the treasure chests into account.

Of course, now that I've completed Floor 4 of the dungeon, I see that the game is (so far, at least) pretty generous about giving you shortcuts that allow you to backtrack to earlier floors without much trouble or effort. As a result, I guess you could drop off even potentially important items on an earlier floor and come back to pick them up without too much trouble in the event that you need them...


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

As for dropping off items, most people leave them by the stairs or the shortcut (if they metagame and know where it is).
If you want a spoiler

Spoiler

You can dump all but two gold coins, the silver coin, two of the blue gems, and a mirror of dawn. You absolutely want to keep the copper coins. They provide some really good loot late in the game.

Although I don't recall there being that many blue gems. Did you skip "The Vault" and feeding a blue gem into the slot?
In any case, with the possible exception of the bow, you can leave the stuff in the alcoves in "The Riddle Room", you won't need it again. I should note that both the crossbow and speedbow are both far superior to the regular bow, but you may want to keep it until you get the speedbow on level 9 if you have two champions with lots of arrows. Discard it in favor of the speed bow then.
The Compass is only required to get from the stairs to level 1 (I think of it as level 2 due to the hint book) to the rest of level 2. However, it is useful for following maps or mapping yourself, and if you want to return to that area

Spoiler

after collecting the Firestaff to get the bad ending

then I'd suggest keeping the Compass. If you don't want to keep it, discard it near the three doors that need gold keys to pass so you can pick it up if you ever return. Many people carry it all through level 2, return to level 1 to refill their water, then discard it in that very location by the 3 doors after they fill up on water before descending to level 3 in the hopes of doing the entire level without returning for water (there are plenty of worms to eat on level 3, not to mention the screamer grocery store).
You can get rid of the RA Key at the start of level 6. You'll know when and where.

[jayrshaw]

Thanks for the advice, slickrcbd! I will definitely hold on to the compass and the other items you suggested.

I actually picked up all three blue gems on Floor 4 of the dungeon (I used the original one you pick up on Floor 2 of the dungeon to complete the "Room of the Gem" section of the floor). My guess is that they put a bunch of the gems on Floor 4 to make sure you have one available to complete the Riddle Room puzzle on Floor 5. They also definitely made sure to make a whole bunch of gold coins available, in addition to a second Mirror of Dawn. There's apparently only one normal bow available in the game, though - oh, well.

I kind of like each of my characters having their own set of ranged weapons, so I was thinking of keeping a bow/crossbow on two of my characters and thrown weapons on the other two (this would mean dropping the sling and rocks once I pick up the crossbow on Floor 5 of the dungeon). One thing I just noticed is that once I pick up the 3 "slayer" arrows on Floor 5, I'll have 9 arrows/slayers, so I'll be one arrow short of having two sets of 5 - can't have everything, I guess!


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

Those rocks are heavy, I eventually discard it to free up weight once I have enough other ranged weapons. The sling and 5 rocks weighs more than 5lbs, while most other missiles only weigh 0.2lbs, or 1lb total + launcher for the bow. It's good, about as good as the bow in the same way that the rapier and the saber are about equal, but the crossbow and speedbow are far better. According to the encyclopedia twice as good by numbers, though it did not seem that way.

Only the strongest champions like Halk, Stamn or Hisssssa (I can never remember how many S's to use) should keep it. It's like the Darc armor, again, only the absolutely strongest should use it. On other hand if you're like me and favor the six strongest champions, well, it's like using Darc armor, go ahead if you've got the strength.
That said, for the first four levels, you don't have a lot of options if you want everyone to have their own set of missiles. Only when you get to level 5 "The Riddle Room" can you start to be more discriminating as you start picking up enough throwing stars and poison darts to equip two champions (and they should each have a dagger or two), with another two using arrows/slayers.

Keep in mind that daggers are not only thrown weapons, but decent melee weapons for building ninja levels when it comes to what you discard. Most people I've talked to find that their ninja levels lag behind, so to compensate I take on the less dangerous enemies like screamers, swamp slimes, rusters, vexieriks, skeletons, and oitus with daggers. Wizard eyes are another candidate if you have good enough defenses to stand up to their spells. I'll often take on pain rats with daggers when returning to level 8 for food and water. More of a challenge, but also brings my ninja level up a notch, and YA IR can help too. It's not like you're short on food or water at that location. In that vein you can attack anything that doesn't require a vorpal blade with daggers for ninja experience, it's just more dangerous to use it on things like mummies or trollins where you are better off just using ranged attacks and spells, or dangerous things like magenta worms, animated armor, or scorpions where you just want to kill them quickly.

[terkio]

The bow is a must item at the riddle room AND later.
At the riddle room, once the way has opened thanks to the bow with 3 other items, the bow is needed later.
Later you must "prove your strength". This asks for the bow to shoot an arrow far enough onto a pressure pad opening a way to proceed further on.
Then you will find soon a crossbow and slayers.

[Ameena]

I've played through without ever using a bow, so presumably I just chuck a rock or something when I get to that point .

[jayrshaw]

Reading these posts just now - I actually solved the "prove your strength" puzzle last night by throwing a throwing star across the long stretch of teleporter spaces. I had kind of assumed that was why the developers placed two throwing stars in a room close to the "test your strength" area (i.e., since the throwing stars only weigh .1 KG and are specifically designed for throwing, a strong thrower can throw them a considerable distance)...


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

The Compass is only required to get from the stairs to level 1 (I think of it as level 2 due to the hint book) to the rest of level 2. However, it is useful for following maps or mapping yourself, and if you want to return to that area then I'd suggest keeping the Compass.

Oh, by the way, I thought I'd mention that holding on to the compass was actually pretty helpful when I was in the section of Floor 5 of the dungeon where you have to lure a group of skeletons onto a pressure plate in order to open a nearby wall with two potions and a drumstick. That area is fairly large and open with enough small walls thrown in to create some confusion. As a result, I found that I could easily lose track of which way I was facing due to the numerous turns I had to make to get around the walls - the compass definitely helped me figure out exactly where to lead the skeletons and where to find the other switches you need to hit in order to obtain the iron key that is hidden behind a wall in the area.

I'm thinking that the compass will also come in handy when I'm navigating the huge, open area on Floor 7. I was generally planning to attempt to navigate Floor 7 by sticking to the outer walls, but I'll probably end up exploring the open area at some point; when I'm doing that, the compass will definitely come in handy if I end up having to turn my characters around to face an enemy or something...


--Jay

[terkio]

I've played through without ever using a bow, so presumably I just chuck a rock or something when I get to that point .

D'oh !

[slickrcbd]

On the subject of the Compass, I agree, it's useful to help you navigate. I was only saying that you don't HAVE to keep it, just that it comes in handy.

On the subject of "Test your strength", with the use of KU potions, you don't absolutely need the bow. You can throw some stars or a rock, or even a falchon. The bow and arrows just give you the most distance for your strength, allowing strong characters like Halk to succeed without a potion (though if I've got an empty flask handy and some spare mana I'll make somebody drink a LO-level KU potion "just in case" before attempting it).

[jayrshaw]

On the subject of "Test your strength", with the use of KU potions, you don't absolutely need the bow. You can throw some stars or a rock, or even a falchon. The bow and arrows just give you the most distance for your strength, allowing strong characters like Halk to succeed without a potion (though if I've got an empty flask handy and some spare mana I'll make somebody drink a LO-level KU potion "just in case" before attempting it).

Yeah - my characters all had their strength buffed up pretty high at the time I performed the "test your strength" challenge last night. I recall that I completed the challenge during past playthroughs as well, though, and I definitely was not using strength potions at that time. I want to say that I just had a strong character like Hissa throw a light item down the long stretch of teleporter spaces, but I can't remember clearly enough to be sure...


--Jay

[Ameena]

I never use any potions except for Vi and Vi Bro so it's absolutely possible to do that part by just chucking a throwable item like a rock or a dagger or whatever.

On the matter of the compass, I never use that either. I think we did used to a bit when figuring out the spinners in the Matrix on Level Three, but that's about it. And I don't even use it for that any more .

[slickrcbd]

I only use stat potions for the "test of strength", and as I favor stronger champions I rarely need it. Even then I mostly just stick to the one found in the dungeon rather than making it myself. Often the others (DAIN, ROS, NETA) I find just sit in my inventory until I find a water fountain and then I down them just to free up a flask for emergency water (more useful and a flask fills more water than two gulps from a waterskin. If I ever wanted the potion I could just remake it. I try to give everyone a water flask and a waterskin, though I've only ever needed to dip into that on levels 9-11 if I don't return to 8 for water)
I use VI, VI bro, and occasionally EE (mana) potions.
I occasionally use YA (shield) potions when fighting the stone golems since they last longer than YA IR and are more mana efficient. Sometimes also if I'm working on ninja levels in the pain rat room by fighting them barehanded or with daggers. This is usually when I've returned to level 9 to restock on food & water.
MA potion I will occasionally use, but very rarely. Usually I just rest. It's not important with the champions I select, but with weaker ones like Boris, Tiggy, Gando, Chaini, etc, it can come in handy.