Hi all,
Last night, I discovered the following threads on this forum discussing the effects of Dane Potions (i.e., Wisdom Potions), Wisdom, and mana recovery:
viewtopic.php?t=28394
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=22395&start=120#p96547
In the threads, some experienced players of Dungeon Master are essentially arguing that the increased rate of mana recovery you experience by buffing your characters' wisdom with Dane Potions more than makes up for the mana cost of these potions. The threads basically explain that mana recovery is based upon a formula of [Wisdom + Priest Level + Wizard Level], but that the rate of mana recovery hits its maximum when the result of this formula reaches 112.
After reading these threads, I decided to experiment using Dane Potions on Sonja (my character with the highest base wisdom) to see if they were actually worth the effort. Here are the results of my testing (sorry about the length of this post, but I thought some players of Dungeon Master might benefit from the detailed results of my testing):
1. The effect of Dane Potions is stackable, but the potions seem to raise your wisdom by decreasing amounts the higher your wisdom is buffed. When buffing Sonja from her base wisdom of 63, a Lo level Dane potion raises her wisdom by 9 points (i.e., to 72). Conversely, attempting to buff Sonja from an already-buffed wisdom level of 161 with a Lo level Dane potion only raises her wisdom 3 points (i.e., to 164). The highest I seemed to be able to get Sonja's wisdom using Dane potions was to roughly 168 wisdom.
2. It appears to be most economical to use stacked Lo level Dane potions for buffing wisdom. I tried creating both Lo level (i.e., Level 1) and On level (i.e., Level 3) Dane Potions; the Lo level Dane Potion raised Sonja's wisdom by 9 points, while the On level Dane Potion raised Sonja's wisdom by 13 points; however, the On level Dane Potion cost more than twice as much mana to create as the Lo level Dane Potion (13 mana to create the Lo Dane Potion compared to 27 mana to create the On Dane Potion).
3. There does seem to be a cap at which increasing wisdom further no longer improves your characters' mana recovery. I experimented by buffing Sonja's wisdom to around 160, Stamm's to around 140, and Halk's to around 115; draining everyone's mana to zero; and observing how quickly everyone recovered their mana (I waited until Halk, who had the lowest maximum mana, fully recovered his mana, and then observed how much mana each character had recovered at that point in time). Sonja, Stamm, and Halk all recovered their mana at approximately the same rate (they had all recovered approximately 90 mana points at the end of the experiment), whereas Hissa (my only unbuffed character), had recovered less than 60 mana.
4. You do gain more mana from maintaining a wisdom buff from stacked Dane Potions than you lose from creating the potions, but you don't get as much extra mana from doing this as I had hoped. To test this, I buffed Sonja's wisdom to 117, drained everyone's mana to zero, and observed how much mana each of my characters recovered by the time Sonja had fully recovered her mana (she has a maximum mana level of 109). By the time Sonja had reached her maximum of 109 mana, my other characters had only recovered 54-67 mana each, with my lowest wisdom character (Halk) recovering significantly less than everyone else. So, Sonja basically recovered an extra 42-55 points of mana beyond what the other characters recovered due to her buffed wisdom. At this point in time, Sonja's buffed wisdom had degraded from 117 at the time I started the experiment to 108 at the time when she had fully recovered her mana. Since 42-55 extra points of mana is significantly more than the cost of the one Lo Dane Potion it would take to boost Sonja's wisdom back to 117, I conclude that you do gain more mana from maintaining a Dane Potion buff for your characters than you expend on maintaining the buff. The effect isn't as extreme as you might expect, though, since by the time Sonja had fully recovered her mana, my other characters (whose wisdom values range from 48 to 58) had also managed to recover more than half of their mana, as well.
Based on the results above, I'm not sure if it is worth the trouble to maintain a Dane Potion buff to wisdom while training my characters, but I may end up giving it a try, since it does seem to have some net positive effect. Have any of you experimented with wisdom buffs and, if so, would you say that keeping your characters' wisdom buffed is generally worth the effort?
--Jay
Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
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Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
Hi all,
After performing further experimentation with Dane Potion wisdom buffs, I am no longer confident that maintaining these buffs provides a significant net benefit to your characters' available mana over time. One thing I did not notice at the time I made my original post on this topic is that characters' buffed wisdom values apparently degrade much faster when the characters are actively casting spells compared to when they are idle or performing actions other than casting spells (e.g., training Fighter or Ninja skills). As a result, I found that it actually takes roughly 3 Lo Dane Potions each to maintain my characters' buffed wisdom values throughout a cycle of fully recovering the characters' mana and casting spells to drain it again. Since it costs 39 mana to create 3 Lo Dane Potions and you don't receive much more than 39 extra mana points through improved mana recovery while going through a cycle of recovering and draining a character's mana with buffed wisdom, it looks like the net benefit of maintaining the Dane Potion wisdom buffs over time is actually pretty minimal. That said, I haven't experimented with this very much, so I could be missing something - any comments from someone who has experimented extensively with Dane Potion wisdom buffs would be appreciated!
--Jay
After performing further experimentation with Dane Potion wisdom buffs, I am no longer confident that maintaining these buffs provides a significant net benefit to your characters' available mana over time. One thing I did not notice at the time I made my original post on this topic is that characters' buffed wisdom values apparently degrade much faster when the characters are actively casting spells compared to when they are idle or performing actions other than casting spells (e.g., training Fighter or Ninja skills). As a result, I found that it actually takes roughly 3 Lo Dane Potions each to maintain my characters' buffed wisdom values throughout a cycle of fully recovering the characters' mana and casting spells to drain it again. Since it costs 39 mana to create 3 Lo Dane Potions and you don't receive much more than 39 extra mana points through improved mana recovery while going through a cycle of recovering and draining a character's mana with buffed wisdom, it looks like the net benefit of maintaining the Dane Potion wisdom buffs over time is actually pretty minimal. That said, I haven't experimented with this very much, so I could be missing something - any comments from someone who has experimented extensively with Dane Potion wisdom buffs would be appreciated!
--Jay
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
Seems it is like the mana potions. Good for stocking up when you have excess mana so that you can have some extra in times you might need it, like going through the oitus room to collect the treasure, or when wandering the middle of level 8 when ghosts and gigglers keep popping out at you (I don't usually use ranged weapons there because then I need to pick them up if they miss, but I will throw falchons & shields).
However, it sounds like it is not worth the bother for normal exploration.
However, it sounds like it is not worth the bother for normal exploration.
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
Yeah - I might experiment with it a bit more to see if there is a slight benefit to keeping the wisdom buffs up. I just happened to notice last night when I was training magic that my characters' buffed wisdom would suddenly drop 10 points or more after they cast a bunch of spells.
When I try training again later today, I'll confirm the exact number of Dane Potions I need to restore my characters' wisdom buffs after a cycle of regenerating/draining their mana. I estimated 3 potions based on my experience last night because I remember giving all of my characters 1 Dane Potion immediately after they fully recovered their mana and then having to give them about 2 more each after they cast a bunch of spells; I wasn't taking an exact count, though, so I'll double-check tonight just to be sure.
Also, my characters have higher maximum mana values now than they did at the time I made my first post, so they are probably experiencing a slightly higher benefit from improved mana recovery now than at the time I first started experimenting with the Dane Potions; because of this, they may be getting a bit more mana out of their improved mana recovery rates than they are expending on the creation of Dane Potions. Still, if you read the threads I linked to in my original post, you would come away thinking that the Dane Potions are a much bigger boon to magic training than they actually are.
--Jay
When I try training again later today, I'll confirm the exact number of Dane Potions I need to restore my characters' wisdom buffs after a cycle of regenerating/draining their mana. I estimated 3 potions based on my experience last night because I remember giving all of my characters 1 Dane Potion immediately after they fully recovered their mana and then having to give them about 2 more each after they cast a bunch of spells; I wasn't taking an exact count, though, so I'll double-check tonight just to be sure.
Also, my characters have higher maximum mana values now than they did at the time I made my first post, so they are probably experiencing a slightly higher benefit from improved mana recovery now than at the time I first started experimenting with the Dane Potions; because of this, they may be getting a bit more mana out of their improved mana recovery rates than they are expending on the creation of Dane Potions. Still, if you read the threads I linked to in my original post, you would come away thinking that the Dane Potions are a much bigger boon to magic training than they actually are.
--Jay
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
Ok - I did some additional testing and made the following findings:
1. Most Important Finding - Perhaps everyone already knew this except for me, but I just discovered that in-game time flows twice as fast when you are in the character menu view as when you are in the normal dungeon view. This has some important implications - monster attacks, health/stamina/mana regeneration, food/water meter depletion, and stat buff degradation all seem to occur twice as fast when you are in the character menu view as when you are in the normal dungeon view; furthermore, all actions you perform (e.g., war cry, stab, etc.) have half as long a recovery time when you are in the character menu view as when you are in the normal dungeon view.
2. The higher you buff a stat above its base value, the quicker it seems to degrade. I'm not entirely certain, but it appears that once you buff a stat to more than double its base value, the stat seems to degrade about twice as fast as it does when you have buffed it to within twice of its base value. I'm basing this on the following: (a) Halk, whose base wisdom is 52, experienced 14-16 points of wisdom degradation over 13 minutes regardless of whether his wisdom was buffed to 118 or 125; (b) Sonja, whose base wisdom is 66, experienced only 7-8 points of wisdom degradation over 13 minutes regardless of whether her wisdom was buffed to 117 or 126; (c) Hissa, whose base wisdom is 57, experienced 14 points of wisdom degradation over 13 minutes when his wisdom was buffed to 124 but only experienced 9 points of wisdom degradation over the same period of time when his wisdom was buffed to 117; (d) Stamm, whose base wisdom is 60, experienced 11 points of wisdom degradation over 13 minutes when his wisdom was buffed to 125 but only experienced 7 points of wisdom degradation over the same period of time when his wisdom was buffed to 117.
3. Contrary to what I asserted in my last two posts, casting spells does not seem to have an impact on how quickly a buffed stat degrades. While I did observe my wisdom degrading faster than normal last night, the reason for this appears to be a combination of the fact that (a) in-game time was passing twice as fast as normal because I was in the character menu and (b) my stats were degrading twice as fast as normal because I buffed them too high. Basically, I was in the character menu for an extended period of time creating Ma Potions (i.e. stamina potions) to train Healer levels right after I had buffed my characters' wisdom into the upper 120s and witnessed the buffed wisdom values for most of my characters fall around 10 points by the time I had made enough potions to fully deplete their mana.
Based on this, I would say that you do get a net benefit from keeping a perpetual Dane Potion wisdom buff on your characters provided that you are careful not to raise your characters' wisdom values to more than twice their base wisdom values.
--Jay
1. Most Important Finding - Perhaps everyone already knew this except for me, but I just discovered that in-game time flows twice as fast when you are in the character menu view as when you are in the normal dungeon view. This has some important implications - monster attacks, health/stamina/mana regeneration, food/water meter depletion, and stat buff degradation all seem to occur twice as fast when you are in the character menu view as when you are in the normal dungeon view; furthermore, all actions you perform (e.g., war cry, stab, etc.) have half as long a recovery time when you are in the character menu view as when you are in the normal dungeon view.
2. The higher you buff a stat above its base value, the quicker it seems to degrade. I'm not entirely certain, but it appears that once you buff a stat to more than double its base value, the stat seems to degrade about twice as fast as it does when you have buffed it to within twice of its base value. I'm basing this on the following: (a) Halk, whose base wisdom is 52, experienced 14-16 points of wisdom degradation over 13 minutes regardless of whether his wisdom was buffed to 118 or 125; (b) Sonja, whose base wisdom is 66, experienced only 7-8 points of wisdom degradation over 13 minutes regardless of whether her wisdom was buffed to 117 or 126; (c) Hissa, whose base wisdom is 57, experienced 14 points of wisdom degradation over 13 minutes when his wisdom was buffed to 124 but only experienced 9 points of wisdom degradation over the same period of time when his wisdom was buffed to 117; (d) Stamm, whose base wisdom is 60, experienced 11 points of wisdom degradation over 13 minutes when his wisdom was buffed to 125 but only experienced 7 points of wisdom degradation over the same period of time when his wisdom was buffed to 117.
3. Contrary to what I asserted in my last two posts, casting spells does not seem to have an impact on how quickly a buffed stat degrades. While I did observe my wisdom degrading faster than normal last night, the reason for this appears to be a combination of the fact that (a) in-game time was passing twice as fast as normal because I was in the character menu and (b) my stats were degrading twice as fast as normal because I buffed them too high. Basically, I was in the character menu for an extended period of time creating Ma Potions (i.e. stamina potions) to train Healer levels right after I had buffed my characters' wisdom into the upper 120s and witnessed the buffed wisdom values for most of my characters fall around 10 points by the time I had made enough potions to fully deplete their mana.
Based on this, I would say that you do get a net benefit from keeping a perpetual Dane Potion wisdom buff on your characters provided that you are careful not to raise your characters' wisdom values to more than twice their base wisdom values.
--Jay
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
Hi all,
After experimenting with them for a longer period of time, I'm writing to report that Dane Potion (i.e., Wisdom Potion) buffs can definitely be worthwhile for improving your characters' magic skill training (and for mana recovery in general). One thing I failed to mention in my initial posts on the topic is that the benefit of Dane Potion buffs increases significantly as your characters' maximum mana levels increase. Here are the details of why this is the case:
1. For those who do not know, periodic mana recovery increments are based on your characters' maximum mana values, with the mana recovery increments increasing by 1 point for each 40 points of maximum mana a character has. For example, a character with a maximum mana level of 1-39 points will recover mana in 1 point increments; a character with a maximum mana level of 40-79 points will recover mana in 2 point increments; a character with a maximum mana level of 80-119 points will recover mana in 3 point increments; etc.
2. What wisdom does (up to a certain level) is increase the frequency at which your characters receive mana recovery increments. Based on other posts I have read, the way this works is that the game makes a check every few seconds to see if the value of the function [Wisdom + Healer Level + Wizard Level] is equal to or greater than a predetermined value between 1 and 112. If the value of the function is equal to or greater than the predetermined value, your character receives a mana recovery increment.
3. While the cost of maintaining your Dane Potion wisdom buffs will generally remain constant over time, the amount of additional mana your characters receive for each additional mana recovery increment they receive due to having buffed wisdom keeps increasing as your characters' maximum mana values increase. Because of this, the Dane Potion wisdom buffs are less useful when your characters have low maximum mana values and more useful as their maximum mana values increase.
The bottom line is that the Dane Potion wisdom buffs are especially useful when your characters are at relatively high Healer and Wizard levels and therefore have higher maximum mana values. I have been using these buffs while training my characters' skills in the screamer room on Floor 3 of the dungeon (i.e., the floor with magenta worms), and I can now say that the increased mana recovery you experience due to the buffs definitely provides enough of a benefit to noticeably improve the rate at which your characters earn Healer and Wizard levels. I have basically been training my characters by using War Cry and Stab on screamers while pausing to cast a bunch of spells every time my characters' mana levels get close to their maximum (generally Ma Potion spells for Healer levels and Magic Torch spells for Wizard levels). My characters are still mostly at Expert level for their Fighter and Ninja skills, but they are all already On Master (i.e., Level 3 Master) Healers and Um Master (i.e., Level 2 Master) Wizards. At this point, I can say pretty emphatically that the rate at which my characters have gained their Healer and Wizard levels has definitely increased significantly due to the impact of the Dane Potion buffs I have been using.
--Jay
After experimenting with them for a longer period of time, I'm writing to report that Dane Potion (i.e., Wisdom Potion) buffs can definitely be worthwhile for improving your characters' magic skill training (and for mana recovery in general). One thing I failed to mention in my initial posts on the topic is that the benefit of Dane Potion buffs increases significantly as your characters' maximum mana levels increase. Here are the details of why this is the case:
1. For those who do not know, periodic mana recovery increments are based on your characters' maximum mana values, with the mana recovery increments increasing by 1 point for each 40 points of maximum mana a character has. For example, a character with a maximum mana level of 1-39 points will recover mana in 1 point increments; a character with a maximum mana level of 40-79 points will recover mana in 2 point increments; a character with a maximum mana level of 80-119 points will recover mana in 3 point increments; etc.
2. What wisdom does (up to a certain level) is increase the frequency at which your characters receive mana recovery increments. Based on other posts I have read, the way this works is that the game makes a check every few seconds to see if the value of the function [Wisdom + Healer Level + Wizard Level] is equal to or greater than a predetermined value between 1 and 112. If the value of the function is equal to or greater than the predetermined value, your character receives a mana recovery increment.
3. While the cost of maintaining your Dane Potion wisdom buffs will generally remain constant over time, the amount of additional mana your characters receive for each additional mana recovery increment they receive due to having buffed wisdom keeps increasing as your characters' maximum mana values increase. Because of this, the Dane Potion wisdom buffs are less useful when your characters have low maximum mana values and more useful as their maximum mana values increase.
The bottom line is that the Dane Potion wisdom buffs are especially useful when your characters are at relatively high Healer and Wizard levels and therefore have higher maximum mana values. I have been using these buffs while training my characters' skills in the screamer room on Floor 3 of the dungeon (i.e., the floor with magenta worms), and I can now say that the increased mana recovery you experience due to the buffs definitely provides enough of a benefit to noticeably improve the rate at which your characters earn Healer and Wizard levels. I have basically been training my characters by using War Cry and Stab on screamers while pausing to cast a bunch of spells every time my characters' mana levels get close to their maximum (generally Ma Potion spells for Healer levels and Magic Torch spells for Wizard levels). My characters are still mostly at Expert level for their Fighter and Ninja skills, but they are all already On Master (i.e., Level 3 Master) Healers and Um Master (i.e., Level 2 Master) Wizards. At this point, I can say pretty emphatically that the rate at which my characters have gained their Healer and Wizard levels has definitely increased significantly due to the impact of the Dane Potion buffs I have been using.
--Jay
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Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
This seems odd. What platform and version of DM are you playing?
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
Time does seem to flow faster on the inventory screen in the IIGS version as well.
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Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
Interesting. There is, as far as I can tell, nothing in the actual DM code (at least on the Atari ST) that makes time run any faster on the inventory screen, but I suspect some speed-up may be evident on old computers due to the fact that rendering the dungeon view took a fairly significant amount of CPU power on those old 16-bit computers and they could never quite manage the framerate they were "supposed" to run at. The inventory view is a lot less pixel pushing so the game could run at the intended rate.
I haven't delved into the innards of the SNES version in any detail, so I am not sure if changing the time rate on the inventory screen is some feature of the SNES version, or just an artifact of the above given that the SNES had a rather pokey CPU even for its time.
I haven't delved into the innards of the SNES version in any detail, so I am not sure if changing the time rate on the inventory screen is some feature of the SNES version, or just an artifact of the above given that the SNES had a rather pokey CPU even for its time.
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
The SNES had the same CPU as the Apple IIGS. Both used the Western Design Center 65C816 processor. The difference is that the SNES had graphics coprocessors and different graphics modes.
Incidentally the original NES and the Apple II, II+, and original unenhanced Apple IIe (the later enhanced IIe and the "platinum" IIe used the 65C02) all used the venerable 6502 processor.
Incidentally the original NES and the Apple II, II+, and original unenhanced Apple IIe (the later enhanced IIe and the "platinum" IIe used the 65C02) all used the venerable 6502 processor.
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
Not sure if it's relevant, but I found that time flows more or less exactly twice as fast in the inventory menu as it does in the normal dungeon view of the game. I tested this mainly by seeing how long it took my characters' mana gauges to fully recover from the nearly-empty state they were in at the time I had saved the game.
--Jay
--Jay
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
That said, I have noticed some processing issues in the SNES version of the game. This mainly occurs when I have too many items strewn around on the ground in the vicinity of where my characters are moving or performing actions; I think it may also occur if there are a whole lot of enemies around at the same time. I have also noticed that processing is a bit slow for a couple of seconds immediately after I first load my saved game.
--Jay
--Jay
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
That is true in the IIGS version, although it doesn't seem to be the case in the PC version. I don't know if it is because I've only tried the PC version of Dungeon Master on computers 20 years more advanced and at least a couple hundred times faster than when the game was released or not.
The game does indeed slow down slightly if you have a lot of items strewn on the ground, especially when you try to interact with those stacks of items.
The easiest way to duplicate it in the IIGS version is to visit the "Kid's Dungeon" and use poison clouds (I suggest resurrecting some wizards like Gothmog, Boris, Chaini, and Wuuf if you are trying to speed run it) to kill a bunch of screamers or rockpiles in the "Make a Monster" section. Then go into that section and start interacting with the screamer slices or piles of rocks and boulders. Also don't use an accelerator card, or emulate the IIGS at it's native speed. Make sure the system speed is "fast" at 2.6mhz and not "normal" at 1mhz as the game can be really annoyingly slow if you forget to set it to fast after playing an Apple II family game.
The other times I've seen it slow down are around the regeneration rooms (screamer on level 4, pain rats on level 9, oitus on level 12) where there are a lot of monsters around.I've also seen it slow down on some of the deeper levels and at the end of the worm level after killing the mummy. In the later case it only happens if you charge towards the stairs right away and encounter all the worms bunched up together (and probably get surrounded and eaten alive).
The game does indeed slow down slightly if you have a lot of items strewn on the ground, especially when you try to interact with those stacks of items.
The easiest way to duplicate it in the IIGS version is to visit the "Kid's Dungeon" and use poison clouds (I suggest resurrecting some wizards like Gothmog, Boris, Chaini, and Wuuf if you are trying to speed run it) to kill a bunch of screamers or rockpiles in the "Make a Monster" section. Then go into that section and start interacting with the screamer slices or piles of rocks and boulders. Also don't use an accelerator card, or emulate the IIGS at it's native speed. Make sure the system speed is "fast" at 2.6mhz and not "normal" at 1mhz as the game can be really annoyingly slow if you forget to set it to fast after playing an Apple II family game.
The other times I've seen it slow down are around the regeneration rooms (screamer on level 4, pain rats on level 9, oitus on level 12) where there are a lot of monsters around.I've also seen it slow down on some of the deeper levels and at the end of the worm level after killing the mummy. In the later case it only happens if you charge towards the stairs right away and encounter all the worms bunched up together (and probably get surrounded and eaten alive).
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
Well, my characters now each have more than 240 maximum mana points and are therefore recovering 7 mana points every few seconds. I've discovered that with the Dane potion wisdom buffs active that my characters now recover mana so rapidly that it is very difficult to deplete their mana gauges simply by creating stamina potions. It literally took me more than an hour of creating stamina potions (and the occasional Dane potion) as fast as I could to fully deplete my characters' mana gauges! I should have timed it more carefully, because I would like to know exactly how much time I have to spend making stamina potions to actually earn a Healer level...
--Jay
--Jay
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
Just how high are their levels or how did you manage to power level to get so much mana?
Does increasing wisdom with dain potions increase the amount of mana you gain at level up?
That might change things in my outlook on if it's worth the effort to buff like you've described.
Does increasing wisdom with dain potions increase the amount of mana you gain at level up?
That might change things in my outlook on if it's worth the effort to buff like you've described.
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
My characters are now all On Master (Level 3 Master) Healers and Wizards, and I find that they gain Healer and Wizard levels much faster with the Dane Potion wisdom buffs up than they would if I were just relying on their natural mana recovery rates. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I generally train my characters by using War Cry and Stab in the screamer room on Floor 3 of the dungeon while pausing to cast a bunch of spells every time my characters' mana levels get close to their maximum. Keeping the Dane Potion wisdom buffs up basically results in my characters' mana gauges filling up faster so that I have to pause and cast spells more often, resulting in faster Healer and Wizard levels but slower Fighter and Ninja levels.
The last time I played the game, I quit playing at around the time I trained my characters up to Um Master (Level 2 Master) in the Fighter and Ninja skills. By that time, I had only managed to get my characters up to Um Master (Level 2 Master) Healer and On Master (Level 3 Master) Wizard. This time around, my characters all reached On Master (Level 3 Master) Healer and Wizard by the time they had reached Lo Master (Level 1 Master) in their Fighter and Ninja skills; furthermore, I anticipate that they will reach Ee Master (Level 4 Master) in the Healer/Wizard skills by the time they reach Um Master (Level 2 Master) in the Fighter/Ninja skills. One confounding factor is that on my last playthrough, I was gaining Healer levels exclusively by using the War Cry technique and using all of my mana toward gaining Wizard levels via the Magic Torch spell; at the time, I was simply not aware of just how much faster you can gain Healer levels by creating stamina potions (for those who are not aware, stamina potion spells give more than twice as many experience points per mana point consumed than any other spell in the game).
You don't gain any additional maximum mana points at level up by having a Dane Potion wisdom buff up. I have been gaming my Healer and Ninja levels by resetting until I get within a point or so of the maximum amount of maximum mana points for each level. However, the difference between the lowest and highest maximum mana values you can get for each Healer/Wizard level is only 3 points; as a result, my characters have almost certainly gained less than 40 additional maximum mana points each from my level-gaming activity than they would have gained naturally if I had just gone with the initial set of stat bonus dice rolls I received each time my characters leveled up. So, in a nutshell, my characters are each typically receiving roughly 1 additional point of mana for each mana recovery increment than they would have if I had not gamed the Healer and Wizard levels; this is essentially the same amount I would be receiving if I had chosen champions with high initial maximum mana values instead of my "Brute Squad" of Halk, Hissa, Sonja, and Stamm.
--Jay
The last time I played the game, I quit playing at around the time I trained my characters up to Um Master (Level 2 Master) in the Fighter and Ninja skills. By that time, I had only managed to get my characters up to Um Master (Level 2 Master) Healer and On Master (Level 3 Master) Wizard. This time around, my characters all reached On Master (Level 3 Master) Healer and Wizard by the time they had reached Lo Master (Level 1 Master) in their Fighter and Ninja skills; furthermore, I anticipate that they will reach Ee Master (Level 4 Master) in the Healer/Wizard skills by the time they reach Um Master (Level 2 Master) in the Fighter/Ninja skills. One confounding factor is that on my last playthrough, I was gaining Healer levels exclusively by using the War Cry technique and using all of my mana toward gaining Wizard levels via the Magic Torch spell; at the time, I was simply not aware of just how much faster you can gain Healer levels by creating stamina potions (for those who are not aware, stamina potion spells give more than twice as many experience points per mana point consumed than any other spell in the game).
You don't gain any additional maximum mana points at level up by having a Dane Potion wisdom buff up. I have been gaming my Healer and Ninja levels by resetting until I get within a point or so of the maximum amount of maximum mana points for each level. However, the difference between the lowest and highest maximum mana values you can get for each Healer/Wizard level is only 3 points; as a result, my characters have almost certainly gained less than 40 additional maximum mana points each from my level-gaming activity than they would have gained naturally if I had just gone with the initial set of stat bonus dice rolls I received each time my characters leveled up. So, in a nutshell, my characters are each typically receiving roughly 1 additional point of mana for each mana recovery increment than they would have if I had not gamed the Healer and Wizard levels; this is essentially the same amount I would be receiving if I had chosen champions with high initial maximum mana values instead of my "Brute Squad" of Halk, Hissa, Sonja, and Stamm.
--Jay
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
One thing I should add is that, at higher maximum mana values, my technique of "pausing" to cast spells when my characters' mana gauges fill up no longer really applies when I am training Healer levels by creating stamina potions. Essentially, what ends up happening is that you start recovering mana so rapidly that you can create stamina potions for as long as you want to without mana really being a barrier to training anymore. While this is a good thing in theory, creating stamina potions for an hour or longer without stopping is particularly mind-numbing since it is much more of a pain to continuously move the cursor back and forth between the spell menu, the characters' hands, and the characters' mouths compared to simply casting Magic Torch or hitting "War Cry" or "Stab" repeatedly.
--Jay
--Jay
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
Well, I just discovered that it takes a total of roughly 1.5 hours of creating stamina potions to advance your entire party from On Master (Level 3 Master) Healer to Ee Master (Level 4 Master) Healer. So, it looks like it would take roughly 3 additional hours to advance everyone to Pal Master (Level 5 Master) Healer and 6 additional hours to advance everyone to Mon Master (Level 6 Master) Healer. Not sure if I actually have the stomach for that - I'll see how I'm feeling about doing more training once I've gotten my characters to Ee Master (Level 4 Master) Wizard.
--Jay
--Jay
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Paul Stevens
- CSBwin Guru
- Posts: 4318
- Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 6:00 pm
- Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
You need an automatic (robot) method of doing this.6 additional hours to advance everyone to Mon Master (Level 6 Master) Healer
I might be able to help with CSBwin. We might even be able to
provide the "Record/Playback" feature with a "For/Next" structure
to avoid editing extremely long scripts.
Then you could train while you sleep.
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
Yeah, I was thinking that 6 hours might be a bit extreme. I'm playing the SNES version of the game, though, so using a script isn't really an option. I'll probably just stop training my Healer levels at Ee or Pal level...
--Jay
--Jay
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
I'm not that into grinding, I'm usually only finishing the game at LO master or UM master, very rarely do I get to ON Master. I also don't recall getting mana level that high for characters like Halk or Sonja.
Most of my grinding is mostly just clearing out the regeneration rooms when I come across them. Well, not so much the oitus one, I usually have to flee before I can clear it out and they regenerate too quickly, unlike the pain rat room.
The Screamer room I'll clear out, then finish the level, then revisit it when I open the shortcut from level 5, and make a final stop to replace all the worm rounds I ate on level 5 with screamer slices before descending to level 6. I'll try to eat only screamer slices and any remaining worm rounds until they are gone, and restock with drumsticks on level 9. Any time I need food or water I'll clear the pain rat room on level 9. That's the extent of my grinding. Clearing the pain rat room.
Most of my grinding is mostly just clearing out the regeneration rooms when I come across them. Well, not so much the oitus one, I usually have to flee before I can clear it out and they regenerate too quickly, unlike the pain rat room.
The Screamer room I'll clear out, then finish the level, then revisit it when I open the shortcut from level 5, and make a final stop to replace all the worm rounds I ate on level 5 with screamer slices before descending to level 6. I'll try to eat only screamer slices and any remaining worm rounds until they are gone, and restock with drumsticks on level 9. Any time I need food or water I'll clear the pain rat room on level 9. That's the extent of my grinding. Clearing the pain rat room.
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ChristopheF
- Encyclopedist
- Posts: 1538
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 1999 2:36 pm
- Location: France
- Contact:
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
I see no benefit to automate training:You need an automatic (robot) method of doing this.
- People who like to train their champions in their own way will continue to do so
- People who do not want to train their champions for hours should use a champion editor to directly set the values of each champion's skills and statistics.
Christophe - Dungeon Master Encyclopaedia
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
Yeah, the training doesn't bother me too much. I'm using it as a chance to catch up on listening to my music collection, which is large enough so that I haven't heard many of the songs in several months...
--Jay
--Jay
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Paul Stevens
- CSBwin Guru
- Posts: 4318
- Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 6:00 pm
- Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
Hey! That's cheating. And not very clever. On the other hand, training a robot to press the keys......Christophe wrote:should use a champion editor to directly set the values of each champion's skills
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
+1- People who do not want to train their champions for hours should use a champion editor to directly set the values of each champion's skills and statistics.
And then, brag publishing you have achieved super duper champions. Maxed at everything.
Ah, ha ha. So ridiculous.
"You can be on the right track and still get hit by a train!" Alfred E. Neuman
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
Editing stats can have unforseen issues. I experimented with editing stats on the ST with a sector editor. When my Anti-fire was set to over 128, my champions would take more fire damage if I cast fireshield. A MON fireball would kill my party if fireshielded, but only take about 50-100 damage unshielded.
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
That makes sense if it's using the high bit as the sign bit to indicate negative numbers and using negative numbers for vulnerability.
Also @Phoenix, you're the first person I've seen on the internet to mention sector editors outside of an Apple II forum discussing cracking copy protection on 5.25" disks.
I did not know they existed on other platforms for 3.5" disks, ProDOS (Apple II), HFS (Mac), and FAT16 (MS-DOS/Windows) all use blocks instead of sectors for that kind of editing. On the Apple II sector editors are for 5.25" disks.
Also @Phoenix, you're the first person I've seen on the internet to mention sector editors outside of an Apple II forum discussing cracking copy protection on 5.25" disks.
I did not know they existed on other platforms for 3.5" disks, ProDOS (Apple II), HFS (Mac), and FAT16 (MS-DOS/Windows) all use blocks instead of sectors for that kind of editing. On the Apple II sector editors are for 5.25" disks.
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
I was using sector editors before hexeditors became the new standard. I used KnifeST to adjust stats in DM and Phantasie. Xvi32 works well in Windows.
Re: Dane Potions, Wisdom, and Mana Recovery.
I did too. I sometimes had to resort to copying to 5.25" disks because my initial sector editor only worked on 5.25" disks.
I didn't get a block editor until years later, which could also "follow file" which made it essentially a hex editor, except it only loaded 512 bytes at a time (the size of one ProDOS block. A DOS 3.3 (predecessor to ProDOS) sector was 256 bytes). Although since it only used 64K of RAM, that restriction wasn't as surprising or crippling as you'd think.
I didn't get a block editor until years later, which could also "follow file" which made it essentially a hex editor, except it only loaded 512 bytes at a time (the size of one ProDOS block. A DOS 3.3 (predecessor to ProDOS) sector was 256 bytes). Although since it only used 64K of RAM, that restriction wasn't as surprising or crippling as you'd think.