Differences Between SNES Version of Dungeon Master and More Standard Versions of the Game.

[jayrshaw]

Hi all,

I just thought I would start a thread attempting to document the differences I have noted between the SNES version of Dungeon Master I have been playing and more standard versions of the game. Here are the differences I have noted so far:

1. In the SNES version of the game, the amount of experience you gain for performing actions via the action menu (e.g., War Cry, Stab, Chop, etc.) seems to vary based on whether your characters are facing an enemy at the time when you are performing these actions and/or whether you are performing the actions from the front row. To ensure you gain the maximum amount of experience in the SNES version of the game, you generally want to perform actions while facing an enemy from the front row.

2. In the SNES version of the game, Giant Wasps and Gigglers are not terribly difficult to hit with ordinary attacks (whereas they are supposedly nearly impossible to hit in other versions of the game). I am not sure, but I am guessing this may also extend to the effectiveness of your characters' dexterity and monsters' "defense" (i.e., evasion) in general. I say this because I have been running through the dungeon with my characters' dexterity buffed to the 140s and have noticed that monsters do not seem to be missing my characters when they attack significantly more often than they did when I was fighting them with unbuffed dexterity.

3. In the SNES version of the game, the Teowand on Floor 3 of the dungeon is located in an enclosed room with one or more groups of mummies in it (you encounter this room a bit earlier in the dungeon than when you encounter the Floor 3 screamer room). In standard versions of the game, the Teowand is apparently located in a normal alcove in an earlier part of the floor with no specific enemies guarding it.

4. In the SNES version of the game, the screamer room on Floor 3 of the dungeon has a different shape than the screamer room in standard versions of the game. Specifically, the screamer room in the SNES version of the game is a square area of empty dungeon squares surrounding a wall that occupies a single dungeon square (this configuration allows you to lure the screamers forward and then sneak behind them by running around the square); there is also a single additional empty dungeon square at the back right-hand side of the room where the screamers actually regenerate. In standard versions of the game, the screamer room is apparently smaller and doesn't have a single-square wall area that you can sneak around.

5. In the SNES version of the game, the sign stating "This is my prisoner. Let him suffer." that is supposed to appear near the end of Floor 3 of the dungeon where you encounter a mummy separated from your group by a pit does not actually appear. However, once you kill the mummy, the sign stating "You will regret that." does appear, and you will be attacked by 4 groups of magenta worms.

6. I don't know if this is an actual variation or not, but in the SNES version of the game on Floor 4 of the dungeon where you access a treasure room with a dagger, a mail aketon, some leg mail, some hosen, and a helme by using several tiny wall switches to open a series of walls, you have to close some of the walls you previously opened with wall switches in order for the new switches to work properly and open new walls.

7. In the SNES version of the game on Floor 4 of the dungeon, there is a set of PowerTowers located in a dead-end alcove in the same general vicinity of the alcove where you find the Staff of Claws (this is one you definitely don't want to miss!).

8. I will have to verify this when I get to Floor 7 of the dungeon, but I recall from previous playthroughs of the game that Gigglers in the SNES version of the game can steal random items from your characters' inventory (i.e., not just the items your characters are holding in their hands). I also seem to recall that Gigglers in the SNES version of the game have a much higher base health than the 10 base health points indicated in the technical documentation section of the Dungeon Master encyclopedia.


That's all I've discovered for now since I'm still only on Floor 4 of the dungeon - I'll try to update this thread as I discover additional differences while exploring later floors of the dungeon.


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

2. In the SNES version of the game, Giant Wasps and Gigglers are not terribly difficult to hit with ordinary attacks (whereas they are supposedly nearly impossible to hit in other versions of the game).

Well, I just discovered that the effectiveness of your characters' dexterity does seem to work in the SNES version of the game (at least for defensive purposes). My characters only dodged couatls for 2 out of 10 attacks, but they were able to dodge mummies for 8 out of 10 attacks. For reference purposes, my characters had their dexterity buffed to the 140s for both tests; couatls have a defense/dexterity of 88; mummies have a defense/dexterity of 40.

I will experiment further with attacking gigglers and giant wasps the next time I run into them, but I do seem to recall that I never had much difficulty hitting either of these creatures with normal attacks during past playthroughs of the game (or even my current playthrough with the giant wasp that you run into on Floor 3 of the dungeon).


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

Gigglers are technically nowhere near as hard to hit as giant wasps in the normal game, but they are slightly more difficult than your average monster. Probably on par with couatls.
The real issue is that they don't stick around to get hit, but instead run away, making them much harder to hit in melee. You go, select the weapon and select an attack, only to find that as you're clicking the giggler has run away. Chasing them has a similar problem, with the best way to have a chance is to keep your mouse over the attack command, hit the up arrow key and immediately click to attack as soon as you move.
That's the real problem with hitting them with melee weapons.
On the other hand, flinging a poison bolt, fireball, throwing something, or shooting something will hit them as long as they run away from you and don't zig-zag (which they will do).
I don't recommend throwing/shooting because then you have to collect the ammo, and if the giggler zig-zags you might lose track of it. On the other hand throwing an item you intend to discard is another matter.

[jayrshaw]

Right - from what I recall, my experience with the gigglers during past playthroughs was similar to what you just described. I remember especially having difficulty with the first one you encounter in the huge open area on Floor 7 of the dungeon since he can easily flee in any direction and disappear from your line of sight.

I'm hoping that I'll be able to dispatch the gigglers using fireballs or poison bolts once I start encountering them, like you suggested. The "creature details" section of the Dungeon Master encyclopedia says they should be very vulnerable to both of these attacks, but I vaguely seem to recall having to use more than one fireball to kill them during past playthroughs for some reason. The "creature details" section of the Dungeon Master encyclopedia also says that gigglers are only supposed to have a base health value of 10, so I'm definitely curious to see whether or not a single fireball or poison bolt can dispatch them.


--Jay

[ChristopheF]

'Base Health' is a value that is only used for Creature Generators, see http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/1198
The amount of health of creatures defined in the dungeon.dat file is defined by the dungeon designer.

[jayrshaw]

Thanks for the clarification, Christophe - guess I should have read the definitions on the "creature details" page more carefully! Maybe it isn't abnormal for a giggler to have significantly more than 10 health, then. I guess I'll just have to wait until I encounter one on Floor 7 of the dungeon to verify if my memory of them is correct...


--Jay

[ChristopheF]

No need to play and guess, if you want to know the health of each creature then you can open the dungeon file in CSBuild.
You can extract the SNES dungeon from the ROM with this tool: http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/657

[jayrshaw]

Hi Christophe,

Thanks for providing this information! I got the SNES data to work in the CSBuild application. It says that the gigglers on Floor 7 generally have ~32 HP. There is also apparently an enclosed room at the northeast end of Floor 7 in the SNES version of the game that is not in standard versions of the game that houses six gigglers (one of whom is holding a DexHelm). I think I actually vaguely remember this room from prior playthroughs - you definitely do not want to let the gigglers escape from the small area where they are contained with your items!

I can also see the differences that I cited above for the screamer room and Teowand location on Floor 3 of the dungeon. I also see that Floor 1 of the dungeon is different and slightly smaller on the SNES version of the game compared to standard versions; there is a small section of Floor 1 where you get a Key of B in standard versions that does not exist in the SNES version of the game.


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Well, I just ran into a group of giant wasps on Floor 5 of the dungeon and successfully hit them on 13 out of 17 attempts with my characters' dexterity buffed to roughly 150. That said, the wasps were also hitting me almost every time they attacked me (definitely at least around 80% of the time). So, maybe in the SNES version of the game it's easier for both characters and monsters to hit each other?


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Another minor variance I just noticed in the SNES version of the game is that when you are backtracking from the room near the end of Floor 5 with several wizard eyes and a blue magical box, you will discover that a new group of wizard eyes and a group of skeletons have generated on the long stretch right outside the room (these creatures apparently don't appear in standard versions of the game).


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Well, I've been exploring Floor 7 of the dungeon, and I can verify that the room with six gigglers in the northeast corner of the floor definitely does exist in the SNES version of the game. As I mentioned earlier, one of the six gigglers is carrying a DexHelm. The game also plays a really silly-sounding tune as soon as you step into the entrance of the giggler room.

Basically, the way the room works is that you flip a switch opening the room, and as soon as you flip the switch, you want to move right one space to position yourself in a square that must be passed through in order to enter or exit the giggler room; standing in this square prevents any of the gigglers from leaving the room, and it also triggers the funny tune I mentioned! I managed to kill the first four gigglers in the room easily enough with fireballs without having to move from the square I was occupying that blocks the gigglers' passage to the huge, open area outside of the giggler room. The last two gigglers ran away towards the back of the room and generally stayed outside of my line of sight for awhile; however, one finally came into my line of sight, and I was able to nail him with a fireball, too. I had to abandon the square I was occupying at the entrance of the room to go inside the room after the last giggler, but I managed to kill him before he escaped.

While engaging in all of these shenanigans, I was able to observe a good sample of gigglers' stealing activity. In the SNES version of the game, gigglers can definitely steal items from your main backpack, your quiver, your water pouch, and your neck. They can also steal items from any character regardless of whether the character is in the front row or the back row and/or whether he/she is adjacent to the giggler when it makes a stealing attempt. I would say that the gigglers' stealing algorithm definitely seems to prefer neck items, because three out of my four characters' necklaces were stolen by the time I had killed all six gigglers in the room (and the gigglers had only stolen 3-4 other items). Ironically enough, none of the gigglers stole any items from my characters' hands (whereas, apparently, hand items are the only items they are able to steal in most versions of the game). I would hazard a guess that gigglers can still probably steal hand items in the SNES version of the game but that I just didn't happen to observe it, myself. I do not know whether or not gigglers can steal armor items in the SNES version of the game. In retrospect, I should have let them steal from my characters for a longer period of time before killing them so I could see precisely what in all they are capable of stealing!

Also, one Mon level (i.e., Level 6) fireball was consistently enough to kill any giggler that crossed my path. I must have been misremembering in earlier posts I made where I said I thought I recalled it taking two or more fireballs on average to dispatch them.

Anyway, there's my report on gigglers in the SNES version of Dungeon Master!


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

I just ran into a couple more gigglers in the open area of Floor 7, and I can say that the gigglers' stealing algorithm in the SNES version of the game seems to prefer water pouch items almost as much as it likes neck items. I still have not witnessed a giggler steal an armor item or a hand item in the SNES version of the game.

If I had to list everything that has been stolen from my characters by gigglers so far, I would estimate that they have stolen ~4 neck items, ~4 water pouch items, ~4 general backpack items, and ~2 quiver items. When you look at it that way, it seems like the chances of a giggler stealing a general backpack item are about as high as they are for stealing a water pouch or neck item; however, when you take into account the fact that there are only two water pouch slots and one neck slot per character, chances are quite high that one of the few items you have in those slots will be stolen!


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

I'm pretty sure that the gigglers on the level "Des, The Void" can be killed with ON level fireballs and poison bolts. No need to waste the mana on MON level ones. I think the ones deeper might need EE or even PAL level. I'm pretty sure UM level ones can reliably (but not 100% of the time) kill them.
Then again, I'm talking about the IIGS, PC, and CSBWin versions. I've never gone deeper than "Choose your door, choose your fate" on the SNES version as I found the interface too annoying when dealing with "Time is of the Essence" (Which I usually tackle first so my characters aren't overloaded).

[jayrshaw]

You're right - I've mainly just been using Mon level fireballs due to a combination of laziness and generally having an excessive amount of mana. Based on the data Christophe pointed me to yesterday, the gigglers on the 7th Floor should only have ~32 HP; as a result, a significantly lower level fireball should theoretically be able to take them out.

The funny thing is, some of the mummies on the 7th Floor have had enough HP to withstand a Mon level fireball without being killed! I have yet to run into a skeleton that could withstand one, though (even when they show up in large groups). I've also found that the screamers in the screamer room on Floor 3 of the dungeon can sometimes withstand up to three Mon level fireballs without being killed if they show up in a large group.

For reference, I accidentally ran into one of my own Mon level fireballs tonight and discovered that it was generally doing a bit more than 200 damage to each of my characters (with anti-fire values ranging from 68-85).


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

Those screamers in the screamer room can be tougher than you expect. They take a pounding. It's just that their attacks are so pathetic that you don't mind. I think they are actually harder to kill than the worms, but the worms prove that the best defense is a good offense.

[jayrshaw]

While exploring Floor 8 of the dungeon, I discovered some treasure in the SNES version of Dungeon Master that doesn't appear to exist in standard versions of the game. If you head east and then north from the location where you place the corbamite through a door to a dead-end room with a pain rat in it, there will be a treasure chest in the room containing two green magical boxes and two FUL bombs.


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

The dexhelm you mentioned earlier doesn't exit either, and the powertowers can only be obtained from level 6 "Tomb of the Firestaff" when you have to pick one door with treasure and forgo all the others ala Monty Hall in "Let's Make a Deal" (This game came out when that show was still on, it's a valid reference).

[jayrshaw]

Yeah - I was assuming these items didn't exist in most versions of the game because they weren't mentioned in the maps on the Dungeon Master encyclopedia. I've generally been consulting the maps as I navigate the dungeon and making sure I pick up all of the treasures that are mentioned in the maps. I nearly missed one of the two Vorpal Blades on Floor 5 of the dungeon until I went through the list of treasures on the map after completing the floor!


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

I've been exploring Floor 9 of the dungeon, and I've noticed a few differences between the SNES version of the game and other versions of the game. First off, the moment I stepped down the stairway leading from Floor 8 to Floor 9 of the dungeon, there was a group of skeletons and a group of wizard eyes waiting for me right in front of the stairway (the skeletons were literally in the square immediately in front of the stairway, and the wizard eyes were in the square immediately behind the skeletons).

Also, on Floor 9 of the dungeon, there is a room where there are several skeletons, wizard eyes, and gigglers that are supposed to be stuck in place. In normal versions of the game, these monsters are supposed to remain stuck in place until you press a switch to release them and/or trigger a pressure plate around the far exit of the room. In the SNES version of the game, however, I noticed that several of the monsters in this room were roaming about freely. So, in the SNES version of the game, some of these monsters either start out free or there is a pressure plate in a different location than the one indicated in the Dungeon Master encyclopedia maps that frees some of the monsters.


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Oh, and here's another update on gigglers in the SNES version of the game. Apparently, a giggler can steal more than one item from your characters in a single stealing attempt. I just encountered a giggler in the dungeon who stole from my party exactly one time before I killed him with a fireball. When the giggler died, he dropped both a slayer arrow and a necklace that my party members had been carrying.

Then again, I'm kind of assuming that the stealing attempts occur at the exact time when the gigglers make a laughing noise. If this is not the case, the giggler might have actually made two stealing attempts even though he only laughed once - oh, well.

Also, those gigglers are stronger than they look - one of them just stole an entire treasure chest full of screamer slices from one of my characters!


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

I just finished the puzzle at the beginning of the 10th Floor with the "clockwise" sign, and I thought I'd mention that the lock/keyhole for the solid key that appears while you are navigating the puzzle is not shown on the Dungeon Master encyclopedia map for the 10th Floor (possibly because it is a lock/keyhole that is not associated with an actual door). Not sure it really matters, though, because I doubt many people will complete that particular puzzle without referring to a walkthrough, anyway...


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

I just finished exploring the three separate passages you can access on Floor 10 using the cross key. In the SNES version of the game, each of the three passages has one or more bonus items which are apparently not available in standard versions of the game. The west passage (i.e., the passage with trolins) has two ven (poison) bombs (two of the trolins in the passage will drop the ven bombs). The east passage (i.e., the passage with the giant wasps) also has two ven bombs. Finally, the south passage (i.e., the passage with the water elementals) has a yew staff.


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

One other thing I now suspect is that, unlike in standard versions of the game, the effectiveness of Ma (stamina) and Vi (health) potions in the SNES version of Dungeon Master actually improves as you gain Healer levels. I'm saying this because I just witnessed one of my characters who was down ~120 health points fully recover after drinking one Lo level (i.e., Level 1) Vi potion; if I recall correctly, Lo level Vi potions did not heal anywhere near that amount of health points for my characters when I was recovering after training with screamers on Floor 1 of the dungeon. I also thought it was strange that Mon level (i.e., Level 6) stamina potions could completely recover one of my character's stamina points when he/she was down 500 stamina points or more; now, I'm guessing that the effectiveness of the potions is partially due to my characters' high Healer levels.

That said, the effectiveness of mana potions and stat-boosting potions does not seem to improve as you gain Healer levels (even in the SNES version of the game).


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Oh, and here's another update on gigglers in the SNES version of the game. Apparently, a giggler can steal more than one item from your characters in a single stealing attempt. I just encountered a giggler in the dungeon who stole from my party exactly one time before I killed him with a fireball. When the giggler died, he dropped both a slayer arrow and a necklace that my party members had been carrying.

Ok - at this point, I am fairly certain that gigglers in the SNES version of Dungeon Master can steal multiple items in one stealing attempt. I just killed a giggler with a fireball after he stole from my party one time (at this point, I'm still going with the assumption that stealing attempts occur when the giggler makes a laughing noise). The giggler dropped three items that Stamm had been carrying (a necklace, an arrow, and a treasure chest full of screamer slices). At this point, if I had to take a wild guess, I would say that when a giggler attempts to steal from you in the SNES version of the game that there is a certain percentage chance that it steals an item from your main backpack, a separate chance that it steals an item from your quiver, a separate chance that it steals an item from your water pouch, and a separate chance that it steals the character's necklace. It appears that a giggler can succeed on several of these separate chances on a single stealing attempt.


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Well, I just discovered that there are two separate skeleton keys on the 11th Floor in the SNES version of Dungeon Master. This means that in the SNES version of the game, you can apparently unlock all of the skeleton key locks in the game and completely open up the central stairway!

The "extra" skeleton key on Floor 11 in the SNES version of Dungeon Master that does not exist in most other versions of the game is located in the room with seven oitus labeled "Cowards will be hunted down and killed." I just checked the SNES Dungeon Master data Christophe told me about, and it appears that one of oitus in the room drops the skeleton key (I just happened to notice it on the ground one space inside the western part of the room after killing a few oitus there).


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

After studying the maps on the Dungeon Master encyclopedia web site and the maps in the SNES data Christophe provided me, I have discovered that the stairway in normal versions of the game leading from Floor 12 to the part of Floor 13 with the winged key door does not exist in the SNES version of the game. In the SNES version of the game, it appears that there is only one stairway that goes between Floor 12 and Floor 13 of the dungeon, and you have to briefly go through the room on Floor 12 with Chaos and his minions in order to access it.

I also just discovered that, at least in the SNES version of the game, the way into the room on Floor 12 with Chaos and his minions is sealed off by a wall when you first access Floor 12 after completing Floor 11. In fact, the only things you can access when you first arrive at Floor 12 of the dungeon are the stairway leading back up to Floor 11, a teleporter leading back up to the rotating pit area of Floor 11, and the skeleton key stairway (which does not go down to Floor 13 in the SNES version of the game).

It's hard to tell from the limited information available in the SNES game data Christophe provided me, but it appears that having the incomplete Firestaff in your possession may allow you to enter the room on Floor 12 with Chaos and his minions and access the stairway to Floor 13 and the dragon from there. Once you manage to get to Floor 13 via this stairway, you end up at a door, which I am assuming to be the winged key door based on the fact that you still apparently get a winged key on Floor 6 in the SNES version of the game. In the SNES version of the game, the dragon is positioned very close to the winged key door (unlike in standard versions of the game, where he starts out on the far side of the room). I don't know if this is normal or not, but the dragon in the SNES version of the game also apparently has 2700(!) HP.

I'll provide another update once I've completed Floor 6 and returned to the Floor 12/13 part of the dungeon after retrieving the incomplete Firestaff and the winged key.


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Ok - I just witnessed something on Floor 7 of the dungeon that I can only describe as completely bizarre. I was backtracking from Floor 12 of the dungeon toward Floor 3/4, where I restock screamers slices and water and where I also store many items that I don't want to have my characters carry around on the floor of the dungeon.

When I arrived on Floor 7 from the skeleton key stairway, I noticed that several enemies had regenerated, including two groups of mummies, a group of ghosts, a skeleton, and a giggler. When I killed the giggler, I discovered that he was carrying several of the items that I had been storing on the ground of Floor 3 of the dungeon, including a morning star, an axe, a Staff of Manar, a Yew Staff, and a Stormring. He was also carrying a water flask and a screamer slice that I could not account for; these are items that my characters normally carry around directly on their person or in treasure chests, but I discovered that the giggler had a water flask and a screamer slice that my characters had not been carrying.

Once the giggler died, I also noticed a glowing orb in the air that looked somewhat like a Des Ew (i.e., harm non-material beings) spell or a materializer when it has phased out of existence except for its ball-like core. When I entered the dungeon square with the orb, it morphed into a blue/yellow flashing field that covering the entire square where my characters were standing (somewhat like a teleporter); however, I was standing directly in the field, and it did not seem to have any actual effect on my characters.

I reset my game and tried killing the giggler on several occasions. Some of the time, the giggler would be carrying nothing of interest (i.e., nothing at all or an item or two he had stolen from my characters). However, on some of the occasions when I killed the giggler, it would have many of the same exact items I described above that I had been storing on the ground of Floor 3 of the dungeon (each time this happened, the strange floating orb of light I mentioned also appeared in the vicinity of where I killed the giggler).

Does anybody have any idea of what this phenomenon is? Is it some sort of a bug? Is it a result of me storing too many items in the same small part of the dungeon? Any explanation of what is going on here would be appreciated...


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Ok - I decided to proceed with my game after killing a giggler and verifying that it wasn't carrying anything unusual. Upon returning to Floor 3 of the dungeon, I discovered that all of the items I described in my last post that the giggler was sometimes carrying were items that were on top of various stacks of items that I had on the ground on Floor 3 of the dungeon. In other words, I might have had a morningstar on top of an axe on top of a rapier, but the giggler would only have picked up the morningstar and the axe. Likewise, I had a Stormring on top of a Yew Staff on top of a Staff of Manar in another stack with a Horn of Fear, a Teowand, and a Wand below those items; as I mentioned in my last post, only the top items on the stack were taken by the giggler. Weird stuff!


--Jay

[Paul Stevens]

My guess is that something has gone wrong in the data.
The data is very tricky in places. A single changed bit
can cause problems exactly like those you describe.
Objects will be in the wrong place. Restarting from the
same saved game can have different results depending
on the exact actions/timing of the player. One of the most
terrible problems to debug in retrospect occurs when an
object appears (because of a hardware error or, much more
commonly, a coding error) in more than one place!! Perhaps
nothing will go wrong until much later in the game and then
all Hell breaks loose. Moving an item from one inventory slot
to another, for example, might cause objects to move from
floor 3 into a Giggler's inventory. Very much unpredictable.

So I suspect that such an error has found it way into your game.

[ChristopheF]

This is a known bug that creates cloned items. This bug is present in all versions of the game and was never fixed despite obvious attempts in the source code. The developers were well aware of cloned items and thought it was caused by chest management issues, but failed to identify the actual cause which lies in the code to steal items.
It occurs when a Giggler steals an item from your inventory that was previously stored in a chest with other items.
See BUG0_12 in ReDMCSB (in BugsAndChanges.htm and also in source code in GROUP.C) for details.