New experiences with an old game...DM

[MasterWuuf]

I decided to try out the DM format that looks like the original Atari ST format.
I saved a shortcut, but should have kept the 'name' on it, since I now can't remember which I used. Ha.
Anyway, a person has to pick VGA/EGA graphics (I remember when EGA was the best I could get). Also have to pick PC Speakers and Mouse.

Hard to believe I could find any new objects in this great game, since I've played it so many times, but I did.

I used one character, then went back for a second before addressing the spider section (takes too long to kill all of them with one guy).

I found a skeleton key I had not noticed before. Great find!

I looked through the topic threads, but couldn't locate the one where everyone shared the objects with which they had killed the dragon.

I intentionally weakened his/her hitpoints to the point that I was killing it with empty flasks, keys, rabbit's feet, coins, etc.
I finally killed it with a piece of CORBOMITE! I don't recall doing that before.

I enjoyed this re-play so much, that I left old Rex/Ms. Rex with one hitpoint. I may drop off a few rat steaks for it occasionally. Hate to see the poor, defeated creature starve.

[jayrshaw]

I used one character, then went back for a second before addressing the spider section (takes too long to kill all of them with one guy).

I found a skeleton key I had not noticed before. Great find!

While playing the SNES version of Dungeon Master, I noticed that there was a second skeleton key on the 11th Floor of the dungeon in the area with a bunch of oitus, too. I was kind of assuming that this is something that only exists in certain versions of the game, since it isn't listed in Christophe's Dungeon Master Encyclopaedia map of the 11th Floor of the dungeon...


--Jay

[MasterWuuf]

On my current version, I went back to the beginning with the completed firestaff, to experience being blown to bits by the Dark Lord's counterpart.

To my horror...that scene isn't incorporated in this version.

P.S. Hard to believe how much enjoyment I received from going through DM again. I haven't fluxcaged the tyrant yet. Saving it for another day. I did kill all the fire demons on that floor, so everything's ready.

[jayrshaw]

I didn't actually return to the dungeon entrance with the incomplete Firestaff to see the ending where Lord Order kills your group. In the SNES version of the game I was playing, you essentially pass a point of no return as soon as you enter the part of the 12th Floor where demons and black flames are lurking; because of this, I saved right before entering this part of the dungeon and mainly just avoided most of the enemies you encounter right before confronting Lord Chaos (including the dragon on the 13th Floor of the dungeon).


--Jay

[MasterWuuf]

I had the completed firestaff. I believe that scene happened when I played (back in the day). You have to make sure you toss the completed firestaff through the door of the firestaff gem, or access to the earlier part of the game is restricted.

Any chance you had the completed firestaff when you hit the "...point of no return..." in your game?

[MasterWuuf]

One thing happened, this time around, that was very pleasant for me.
The 'stores' section on the floor below the screamer room has a room that has multiple transportation spots.
This has always been the most difficult puzzle for me, over the years, when trying to remember it with no 'helps' involved.

I was able to navigate this room to the other side, being able to recall how I did it and repeat it a few times.

I deserve a medal...and a chest to pin it on.

[jayrshaw]

I had the completed firestaff. I believe that scene happened when I played (back in the day). You have to make sure you toss the completed firestaff through the door of the firestaff gem, or access to the earlier part of the game is restricted.

Any chance you had the completed firestaff when you hit the "...point of no return..." in your game?

Unfortunately, the trick where you toss the completed Firestaff through the door doesn't work in the SNES version of the game. In fact, the way leading back to Floor 11 is blocked off as soon as you enter the main part of Floor 12 with the demons and black flames (or at the very latest once you begin exploring Floor 13). The ending part of the game is quite a bit different in the SNES version of the game, in general; for example, you can't access Floor 13 at all until you first go into the main part of Floor 12 with the demons and black flames...


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

One thing happened, this time around, that was very pleasant for me.
The 'stores' section on the floor below the screamer room has a room that has multiple transportation spots.
This has always been the most difficult puzzle for me, over the years, when trying to remember it with no 'helps' involved.

I was able to navigate this room to the other side, being able to recall how I did it and repeat it a few times.

I deserve a medal...and a chest to pin it on.

This is why you take notes.
Yes, I'm aware that there is no way to do this in-game. You'll have to do it the old-fashioned way.
Grab a notepad and a pencil (trust me, you don't want to use ink) and write things down.

This was standard procedure for games in the '80s. I don't think built-in user-generated notes were standard until the 21st century, although Police Quest I from Sierra-Online had that feature (and gave you points for doing it).
Then again, Dungeon Master is 30 years old, so it's a bit old-fashioned too. Not surprisingly you'll have to do some things in an old-fashioned way.
Honestly, I can't recall any other games for the Apple IIGS (or Apple II family, so long as it ran on a IIGS) that had built-in note-taking.

That said, once I got the hint book (a year after getting DM), for that particular puzzle I just looked it up in the book. The page with the solution for the teleporter maze and the pit maze is really worn, and the book is creased such that it naturally opens to that page.
It's something you can either spend a lot of time trying to crack every time you play, or you write it down.
I took notes.

Heck, I just helped my mother clean out her basement back in March, and we found a box with all my old game notes. I've got entire 3x5 notepads for games like Bard's Tale trilogy, Might and Magic II, Magic Candle, Dungeon Master, and all of Sierra's 3D animated adventures for the IIGS along with some graph paper for maps. Even the Gold Box games have maps and notes.

[Ameena]

Stonekeep, which came out in something like 1995, had an in-game note-taking feature. It has sections which auto-fill in, like the map (which uncovers as you explore each level) and notes on items and characters (which fill in as you discover them). Also a section with all the spell runes you know in order to inscribe on them on the mana wands which are how spellcasting is achieved. But there was also a "Notes" section which was just blank and you could write in whatever you wanted. I seem to remember you could also put markers on the map and makes notes there, too.

That said, I have a notebook that lives on my desk between my keyboard and monitor and I use it to make notes on stuff in various games. Even if a game has a built-in note-taking feature, it's much easier to just glance down at my physical notebook than it is to go into some kind of menu in-game and find it . Also it's easier if I need to make any little sketches or diagrams of stuff, not just straight text.

As for the teleporter maze on Level Five...I seem to recall that last time I did that part I was okay with the teleporter room but couldn't remember the route across the pit room. These days I just don't even bother with the level at all, since there's nothing on it that you need and the way down is just along the corridor from the entrance from Level Four .

[MasterWuuf]

RE: Bards Tale (slickrcbd). That was a great experience, the first time. Only thing that was bad? I 'loaded for bear' on my final assault, blasting (I believe) three dragon's breaths. All the head adversaries were blown away on my first exchange, so I barely saw their pictures at all. Ha.

RE: DM level five (Ameena/Fippy). I used to take notes.
Found a box one year, with a huge group of 'home made' grids. Ha. I was cheap, but it worked just fine.
However, as I return to original DM, I almost never take any notes. I guess I'll be stuck doing it again, once my mind starts slipping (huh, what did I just say?).

[jayrshaw]

As for the teleporter maze on Level Five...I seem to recall that last time I did that part I was okay with the teleporter room but couldn't remember the route across the pit room.

I have to agree that I found the room on Floor 4 with the changing pits a lot more challenging than the room with the teleporters. I could sort of muddle my way through the teleporter room on my own through trial and error, but I recall it taking a lot longer to get to all of the exits of the changing pit room...


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

Also the 2nd edition hint book's solution to the pit maze has an error in it.
I have a hand-written correction in mine.

As for hand-made notes, I still occasionally do that for games as well since it is often easier than accessing them in-game,
Especially if you have to make a choice and the game won't let you access the notes until you do and the best/correct answer is in the notes.

[MasterWuuf]

The Pit Room wasn't that difficult for me, even the first time. Surprising, that one room is easy for one person, while another person seems to have very little trouble with another.

I remember playing Wolfenstein 3D the first time. I have a younger brother, who was probably 30 at the time.
He played that game for hours, even coming over to my house at lunch break to spend his lunch hour trying to get through the levels.
He seemed to be 'lost' more than anything else, going back to the same place, time after time.

He was gone a day or two, so I thought I'd try the game out. Before he was able to get back to the game, I finished it. Took two days at the most to complete the whole thing, while he was only about halfway through it, taking a couple of weeks or so.

Things have changed for me however, as I've grown older (and possibly because I didn't play this type of game for years?).
I almost never became confused when I was younger, as far as losing my directions in a maze.
Not so easy now. I notice both of my sons seem to have less trouble negotiating directions in the new games we sometimes share.

[Ameena]

Haha yeah, I used to navigate my dad through stuff because he could never seem to remember his way anywhere in games (I used to sit next to him and watch him play). For DM we had the hint book so that wasn't an issue but I'm pretty sure I can remember directing him somewhere in DM2 and he was surprised I knew where I was going, even though it was easy .

[MasterWuuf]

As for the teleporter maze on Level Five...I seem to recall that last time I did that part I was okay with the teleporter room but couldn't remember the route across the pit room. These days I just don't even bother with the level at all, since there's nothing on it that you need and the way down is just along the corridor from the entrance from Level Four .

SKIP A LEVEL???

Is that anything like taking the easy way out? Ha. I've thought about making a speedrun, a few times lately.
I mentioned in another thread, that I made a speedrun back in the late '80s. 14-hours or so. Anyone jealous?

I did play DM all the way through, about a month or two back. I didn't actually hurry, using one champion
and going back for a second champion after getting to the screamer section (you know, someone to help haul my goodies).
I believe I completed it in an afternoon. I remember it sort of left me feeling a little sad.
Hard to explain the excitement of the 'first time through' on this wonderful game.

[Ameena]

Oh I wouldn't try for a speed run, I just don't like Level Five - it's got those horrible Flying Snakes and the annoying pit room and stuff, and no loot that I consider worth getting. For the most part, though, I'll try and clear as much as I can of the other levels. Exceptions are a chunk of Level Twelve, the bit up the side that only has Darc armour and a shitload of Spell Vines (bastards ), as well as the Spider Room. And most of Level Thirteen because I don't fancy hanging around getting nuked by Demons when I can just hide out in a corner refreshing Fluxcages and wait for Lord Chaos to come to me so I can deal with him .

[slickrcbd]

Here's my take on the interesting treasure on level 5.
If you are using weaker (in terms of carrying capacity) champions, level 5 has some of the rare medium weight armor. Not the best (mithril), but decent that if I'm taking people like Chaini, Tiggy, Wu Tse, Gando, Boris, Wuuf, etc, I'd consider using. Remember that there isn't enough medium armor to go around.
The Hosen, Leg Mail, Mail Aketon, and helmet are decent medium weight armor. Less protection than plate, but less heavy too. It strikes a balance between leather jerkins and plate (of lyte, darc, or just torso/leg).
Also the poison darts are better than rocks without a sling, and better than arrows without a [cross/speed]bow.
I've already extolled the virtues of daggers for ninja training. There's another on this level, though you only really need two for your front-liners, just like you only need the two vorpal blades. While not the best weapons around, they are the best weapons for working on ninja levels in melee using the typical hit and run tactics as opposed to throwing things from afar. For going toe to toe you'll probably just want to punch and kick. Also against rockpiles or stone golems you'll probably just want to punch. The Staff of Claws is the best fear weapon in the game, but it's only really needed against the couatls as the Horn of Fear works just as well against oitus and trollins (the only other monsters really susceptible to fear). On the other hand, acquiring the Staff of Claws should be a priority when exploring this level as it's "brandish" fear effect is super effective against couatls (those powerful flying snakes). The casque and coif is also a really good helmet. I'm a pack-rat, so I always go for the chests so I can store all those magic boxes, VEN potions, and FUL bombs along with extra food and one chest with just extra stuff like keys and coins for later levels (keep those copper coins!).

I always forget what use the Gem of Ages does, the Illuminet is nearly useless (better to use a torch if you need it), and I can do without the Ekhard Cross. I only use them because I have nothing else to put on my champion's necklace slots.
I found the mace to be inferior to the axe, saber, and rapier by this stage in the game. Personally I think the location of the mace and the saber should be switched, as the mace would be far more useful when you find the saber on level 3 and the saber only becomes useful later on when you can "melee". You should already have a few gold coins (need at least one, as you can retrieve it and reuse it at the start of the next level, but having two means you don't have to bother) left over from "The Vault" or from level 4, and you probably have a blue gem leftover from "Choose your door, choose your path". Same with a Mirror of Dawn from "Chamber of the Guardian".

[MasterWuuf]

I don't use much mail. Armour of lyte, yeah.
I usually get the boots of speed (only use one or two characters, so don't have to wait until all four pair can be grabbed.
I always grab the Darc armor, I guess to be able to look at it in a tidy pile? Too heavy. Toward the end, perhaps it is usable?
Hey, I even open the door on level 14 (Dragon/Tyran Rex) that leads to the all but useless altar of life at the end.
Ha, I open that door and don't even go into the room now.
"Fellow adventurers, it's a DOOR. It MUST be opened." And then ZYX incorporated all those doors that don't open on Conflux. Poor me!

I think the Vorpal Blade has disappointed me. I use them occasionally, but tend toward spells.

RE: Flying Snakes. One of my favorite pets in the game. And that last 'sneaky' one, after you get to the end and turn around to go back.
He/she has become an expected 'frosting on the cake' creature for me.

[Ameena]

Armour-wise I don't really bother with anything beyond leather except for magic items like the Elven Boots or other stuff that actually boosts stats/skills. Ninja skills I never bother using, ever, so thrown items are of no use - Fireballs all the way, for me . Well, that and Harm Non-Material Being as necessary.

I never bother using Fear effects, so things like the Staff of Claws aren't worth going for. Plus you only get Flying Snakes on the level that has the staff, so since you can skip them entirely that's another reason not to bother going for it, otherwise you have to fight through a bunch of monsters you're never gonna see again in order to get the item that scares them away .

My group do carry a chest each but by Level Five they've both long since had one and both are filled with the better-quality food...which I end up never using since I'm usually still on the Screamer Slices by the time I finish the game . Stuff like bombs and magic boxes are just junk to me, I don't use any of them. Fireballs, doors, corners, walking backwards, and/or the step-dance are my usual tactics depending on the monster type I'm fighting. The only "random" items I hang onto are the ones needed for the Riddle Room.

[The Journeyman]

..I always go for the chests so I can store all those magic boxes, VEN potions, and FUL bombs..

I also tend to pack the ful bombs and ven potions in the never-to-be-used-again-chests. Always felt kinda powerful having them. Too bad you can't throw the whole chest, though.

Imagine having them in the ninja slots of the back row ppl. Would be kinda handy against the Demons hanging around Lord Chaos later on. I guess the resulting *bang* would possibly wake the dead, though.

[MasterWuuf]

I saved all the chests again, the last time I played through. I believe it was the 3-D version I found on here.
I hate leaving things behind. And I never use a bomb (poison or fire). Just leave them sitting on the floor near the fountain on the rat level.

I believe I asked about making a poison bomb, one time, but I believe someone said a person couldn't do that.
Odd, how one remembers doing something, only to understand it didn't happen.

[slickrcbd]

ZO VEN can make a poison bomb.
It's FUL Bombs that cannot be made.
Although I had a friend who insisted he did it once on accident, then never could figure out how he did it again. He was sure it was something like FUL GOR, but I tried every rune as a kid.

Oh, and BTW, you CAN throw an entire chest at an enemy. You might need to drink a KU potion first as they are harder to throw than boulders, but it's doable.

[Gambit37]

FUL GOR does indeed make Ful bombs. But only in a very early build of the game. It was removed for game balance because you can use up all your flasks. Which is strange, as they should also have removed ZO VEN for the same reason.

[The Journeyman]

Oh, and BTW, you CAN throw an entire chest at an enemy. You might need to drink a KU potion first as they are harder to throw than boulders, but it's doable.

actually the plan was to throw a chest filled with Ful bombs and then it would explode with the power of 8 Mon-Ful Bombs
Sadly this is not possible (in any version)

[slickrcbd]

Going back a bit, one comment I want to make on skipping level 5 "Treasure Stores", I don't skip levels or fail to explore them fully for one simple reason: Experience.
I find grinding boring, but taking the time to explore everywhere tends to give you enough experience to handle everything. It's far less boring than grinding.


The rest is optional, it talks about grinding or lack thereof.

The only time I do anything resembling grinding is at the "screamer store" and the "pain rat regeneration room".
When I first encounter the screamer room, I tend to be full of worm rounds, so I just beat up some screamers with punches and kicks until everybody has earned a ninja level (or the room is empty). Then I finish the level and throw all the worm rounds down the stairs for consumption on the next level.
I'll almost immediately open the shortcut back to the screamer room and again work on ninja levels starting with my weakest champions (in physical combat) until everybody has gained a ninja level or the room is empty, then go back leaving the slices behind. I'll grab any worm rounds left behind however and throw them down the stairs.
During the course of exploring level 5, I'll eat worm rounds exclusively, retrieving the ones I tossed down the stairs as I go about the level. When I've finished and am ready to enter The Riddle Room, I'll go back and once again to the screamer room refill my inventory with as many screamer slices as my champions can hold, while clearing the room until either the room is empty or everybody has gained a ninja level, or in the unlikely event the room is not clear and my inventory is not full but everybody did gain a ninja level, I'll retreat, rest and eat, then finish filling up by having my weakest champions again kick screamers to death until my inventory is full (to the point of being overloaded if necessary) and everybody is at maximum health. Then go downstairs and drink.
Once I enter The Riddle Room (actually for convenience I'll wait until the door is open and throw them through), I'll throw away some excess screamer slices until my champions are no longer overloaded, and eat only worm rounds or screamer slices until it's time to go on to level 8, where I'll return and retrieve the extra food (I should have freed up enough space by needing to eat during the level) and make a quick trip back up to replenish water. Only very rarely with weaker champions do I need to return to the Screamer Store for more food, as I usually have enough slices to get through level 8 (DES The Void), and by then I start replacing the screamer slices with drumsticks.

I follow a similar pattern on level 9. I'll get to the PRRR (Pain Rat Regeneration Room) and clear it out reasonably quickly, although at this stage they aren't great for working on ninja levels (Vexirks and even rusters are less dangerous), I do try using daggers and standard hit & run or step-dance tactics along with possibly using YA IR or YA BRO to work on priest levels. I'll kill all the rats or just fight until everybody has gained a ninja level, then go back to exploring the level. After exploring or if I'm out of screamer slices and drumsticks (eating the slices first), I'll return and clear out the room again, filling up on drumsticks and stabbing them with daggers to gain ninja levels. I'll retreat and rest if everybody gains a ninja level, otherwise just switch champions until the room is clear as it's going to be a long haul with no food.
I'll repeat clearing out the PRRR every time I return to stock up on water. This may or may not be until after completing level 12 on my way back to level 7, although I will return after getting the Firestaff on level 7 as it's your last chance for food and water before beating the game (well, maybe not food, there are a few dragon steaks to eat for breakfast).

[MasterWuuf]

FUL GOR does indeed make Ful bombs. But only in a very early build of the game. It was removed for game balance because you can use up all your flasks. Which is strange, as they should also have removed ZO VEN for the same reason.

Aha! I was absolutely positive I had done that before. I lost (what a moron) my original DM stuff. Found the box, but no 3.5 disk.
I guess that doesn't bother me much now, but the GOR coin? That still makes me shake my head. Why didn't I put it away somewhere?

Thanks Gambit, for clearing up the Ful Bomb frustration.

And yes, if they removed that ability, then the poison bomb should have gone by the wayside.
Hey, if I were to keep just one of them, by all means it would be the FUL bomb spell.

Now I'm wondering why I don't blow up all the FUL bombs I always save, just for the pleasure???

Journeyman: Oh, to be able to load up an entire chest of FUL bombs and toss the entire chest of them.
That might even stun Lord Chaos for just a bit.

[jayrshaw]

Here's a dumb question - how powerful are the FUL bombs and VEN bombs you find lying around in the dungeon compared to the Fireball and Poison Cloud spells you can cast yourself? Are the FUL and VEN bombs roughly comparable to a Mon (i.e., Level 6) spell cast by a high-level caster, weaker than that, or stronger? I know that I read a guide for defeating the dragon recommending for players to use VEN bombs in addition to poison cloud spells after freezing the dragon with magical boxes, so I'm guessing there's some reason why you would want to use the VEN bombs and not just a bunch of poison cloud spells...


--Jay

[MasterWuuf]

I seem to remember the bombs are almost always (maybe always?) Mon level.
I suppose the bombs have the benefit of being placed in every hand (other than the freeze box hand),
then grabbed and tossed, losing almost no time. It takes a little time to place all the runes in your spell, then waiting to cast another.

I remember putting seven FUL/VEN bombs in hand (four champions), plus one in my 'screen' hand. One hand for the freeze box.
It must have been a real health point drain, even in the short amount of time the dragon was frozen.
I think it felt like a waste, given that I used all my pretty, little bombs in a short time.

Once, I even took the time to place about anything that would do damage in a pile, then luring the dragon toward that pile.
I froze him/her and simply kept picking up/throwing things. Ha. Great fun, but alas, the wretched creature doesn't 'freeze' for long.

Oh well, it was fun anyway.

[jayrshaw]

Thanks, MasterWuuf! I was able to kill the dragon by freezing it with four green magical boxes, throwing four VEN bombs at it, and then repeatedly casting Poison Cloud on it until it died. However, soon afterwards, I discovered that in the SNES version of the game I was playing, the dragon is positioned in a location that makes it really easy to sneak past him, pick up the key you need, fuse the Power Gem to the Firestaff, and return to the 12th Floor to confront Chaos. As a result, I didn't actually bother killing the dragon when I finally got around to confronting/defeating Chaos (I had reloaded since the time I mentioned where I killed the dragon with VEN bombs and Poison Clouds).


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

I don't know the exact mechanics, but I did experiment as a kid. The VEN/poison potions/bombs are at least one power level higher than a corresponding poison cloud (OH VEN). So a LO ZO VEN is at least as powerful as an UM OH VEN, if not an ON OH VEN. It might be 1.5 levels higher or even two levels higher. Maybe two and a half. I was never 100% certain on this, just that I'm 99% certain that a PAL ZO VEN poison bomb is more powerful than a MON OH VEN poison cloud.

As for killing the dragon, I only usually need two or three magic boxes. I've stated this elsewhere, but my tactics are that

1. I'll prepare by first resting to full mana and preparing four MON YA BRO spells, and preparing MON level fireballs for the champions. I'll cast Fireshield with the Firestaff (or the item that can cast it, I can't recall off-hand as it's been a while since I used something other than the Firestaff) before confronting the dragon
2. Then I'll freeze the dragon with a magic box,
3. chuck a powerful poison bomb (I tend to horde them),
4. have the front liners attack with my melee weapons,
5. Have the rear ranks use things like Fury, Bolt Blade, Flamemitt, storm ring, etc;
6. have everyone salvo a couple MON level fireballs (minimum 8 between the four champions, usually 12),
7. then start chucking FUL bombs and have the rear ranks use spellcasting items mentioned above while the front ranks melee whenever the action hand lets me take an action
8. When the poison cloud starts to wear down, I'll chuck another VEN Potion, and if the dragon starts to twitch (becomes unfrozen) I'll use another magic box.
9. I'll empty 75% of all my champion's mana in fireballs, saving the rest for VI potions

2-3 PAL or MON poison bombs combined with that initial melee strike, the fireball salvos, and all the FUL bombs is usually enough. There seems to be some randomness.