New experiences with an old game...DM

[The Journeyman]

starting to feel sorry for the poor dragon, he never knew what hit him with your nine step kill plan. Maybe we should start giving him a fighting chance at times.

[jayrshaw]

I don't know the exact mechanics, but I did experiment as a kid. The VEN/poison potions/bombs are at least one power level higher than a corresponding poison cloud (OH VEN). So a LO ZO VEN is at least as powerful as an UM OH VEN, if not an ON OH VEN. It might be 1.5 levels higher or even two levels higher. Maybe two and a half. I was never 100% certain on this, just that I'm 99% certain that a PAL ZO VEN poison bomb is more powerful than a MON OH VEN poison cloud.

The problem is that you can't tell which power level the VEN and FUL bombs are in the SNES version of the game even if you look at the bomb using a character's eye icon. So, basically, I would be gathering all these bombs as I progressed through the dungeon without having any idea how powerful they were and/or if some of them were more powerful than others. The four VEN bombs I used on the dragon were just the ones that happened to be at the top of the stack where I had been dropping them all off periodically (which is probably just as well because I would guess that the bombs I acquired deeper in the dungeon are more powerful than the ones at the bottom of the stack that I collected earlier on).


--Jay

[The Journeyman]

interesting to hear about these little differences between the versions. Original Dungeon Master handles it quite realistically, as far as I can recall: At the beginning you won't be able to see what power levels the potions are, either. This ability only comes once you've accumulated a couple of priest levels
I believe it's the little things that make DM a truly remarkable game

[MasterWuuf]

starting to feel sorry for the poor dragon, he never knew what hit him with your nine step kill plan. Maybe we should start giving him a fighting chance at times.

I have always felt sorry for that poor dragon, starting with the sadness to see it looks like a Tyrannosaurus.
And although I realize the futility involved, the poor thing has no wings (teeny, tiny arms, ha).

I did not realize a character could not peek at the power levels on stuff until acquiring a few levels in the priesthood.

One last thing: I've always wondered what priest level Chuck Norris had attained,
since someone said he could 'War Cry' one time, from the first level, killing the dragon.

[The Journeyman]

I think he would war cry in front of the entrance portal and the whole thing would collapse.

[slickrcbd]

starting to feel sorry for the poor dragon, he never knew what hit him with your nine step kill plan. Maybe we should start giving him a fighting chance at times.

There is no overkill. There is only "open fire", and "time to reload."

Part of it is that by this point I'm nearly at the end of the game and realizing that I'm not going to be using that stuff. I might as well blow it on a worthy opponent to lighten my champion's load. Especially the poison bombs. What else am I saving them for?

The other part is a holdover from my first encounter. I knew two other people with Dungeon Master (two of use bought it because we liked playing the other friend's version.) I was that last to get DM, and was warned by the others how tough The Red Dragon was to beat. I came up with that plan at age 10, and he turned out to be an anticlimax boss to rival Mangar.
I actually wondered if my friends had been having a bit of fun with me with the warnings. They made it out to be as tough as Emerald Weapon from FFVII, although that game was many years in the future.

[Ameena]

The Dragon is probably one of my favourite fights - just do the step-dance and use whatever you like because he can't do a thing about it unless you mess up amd stand still for too long .

[slickrcbd]

starting to feel sorry for the poor dragon, he never knew what hit him with your nine step kill plan. Maybe we should start giving him a fighting chance at times.

The Dragon is probably one of my favourite fights - just do the step-dance and use whatever you like because he can't do a thing about it unless you mess up amd stand still for too long .

Now I'm thinking of trying to kick the poor dragon to death, just to see if that is feasible.

[Ameena]

I would expect so - you can kill him pretty much any way you want as long as his front end isn't pointing at you for more than half a second or so .

[slickrcbd]

Are you saying to quit talking and just kick his ass?

[Sophia]

I don't know the exact mechanics, but I did experiment as a kid. The VEN/poison potions/bombs are at least one power level higher than a corresponding poison cloud (OH VEN). So a LO ZO VEN is at least as powerful as an UM OH VEN, if not an ON OH VEN. It might be 1.5 levels higher or even two levels higher. Maybe two and a half. I was never 100% certain on this, just that I'm 99% certain that a PAL ZO VEN poison bomb is more powerful than a MON OH VEN poison cloud.

Let's run the numbers!

The power of a spell explosion (i.e., what gets plugged into the damage formulas) is based on the power rune and your wizard skill for a spell, while a bomb uses only the bomb's power plus a random factor; the level of the wizard that created it is not stored.

For a spell, the formula is ((2*skill) + 4)*(power+2), while the formula for a bomb is (power*30) + rand(8, 20).

This means that the power of an EE bomb will be between 128 and 140. So, assuming a slightly below average bomb roll of 132, to have an EE spell of equivalent power, you'd need to have a skill level of 9 (an Expert, because it treats no ranks at all as 1), because ((2*9) + 4)*(4+2) = 132.

For most of DM, you're probably going to be at a much lower level, especially if the subskill you're using for the given spell isn't that high. If your skill level is only 6, you'll need to cast a MON spell to reach a power of 128, which is the very worst you can do with an EE bomb.

[jayrshaw]

Thanks for the detailed calculations, Sophia! It sounds like by the time I got around to tangling with the dragon, I probably could've gotten by just using Poison Cloud spells instead of bringing the VEN bombs along. It was fun getting to try the bombs out, though, and I ultimately just ended up running past the dragon most of the times I tried navigating through the bottom floor of the dungeon, anyway!


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

Truthfully, I never bother making poison bombs. They aren't worth sacrificing a flask that could hold a mana potion instead. In fact, I almost never use what bombs I find in the dungeon, then when I get to the dragon level, I realize I've got all this junk I'm never going to use, so might as well unload it on the dragon. Even then, I never seem to need more than three poison bombs and magic boxes.
The only monsters I ever use poison clouds to actually kill are wasps (seriously, they are really weak to poison clouds) and the dragon. Everything else will move out of the cloud before it dissipates. Although pain rats sometimes remain in a LO level poison cloud, they will move out of UM level ones.
What poison clouds are useful for is making monsters move if you find yourself trapped with no room to maneuver. For that I rarely bother with anything stronger than an UM level cloud and usually only a LO level one. Especially if I'm trapped in a dead end and need to make them move several squares as I want the cloud to dissipate quickly and I'm probably low on mana or I'd just fireball or poison bolt said monster to death.
Swamp slimes, mummies, animated armor, skeletons, stone golems, and nonmaterial beings ignore poison clouds. Everything else will move.

[MasterWuuf]

Thanks from me, as well, Sophia. I've always hesitated to use bombs in the past, so only used the 'pile everything in front of you' method once, I believe. It was fun.

It seems I was able to kill the dragon with two long-lasting freeze-time boxes, using poison clouds or fire blasts in quick succession.
Of course, that was with all four champions, after all of them had trained to (probably) sixth-level everything.
That wouldn't work now, since I always end up with only one or two champions.

I have not (as yet, at least) trained all four champions to Arch-master on all four areas, so I guess that would be even more effective.
Egads! I hope I don't talk myself into actually TRYING that!!!

[slickrcbd]

I don't think I've ever reached arch-master in DM1.
Psudo-imported characters into Chaos Strikes Back (use an editor to copy the stats), I think I did once, but never in DM.
I think the highest I ever did was EE Master level fighters and ninjas, as I was trying to buff strength on a weak party of Wu Tse, Chaini, Tiggy, and Gando because they were too overloaded and I couldn't keep them out of the yellow. Wound up grinding in the screamer room until everyone was UM Master ninja since my ninja levels usually lag behind after an initial boost on the early levels.

[jayrshaw]

I saw one of my characters at Archmaster level, but only because I checked when he was wearing a Pendant Feral and holding the Firestaff. Ironically, it was Halk, who was an Archmaster Wizard because of his equipment!


--Jay

[oh_brother]

The maximum level I have reached is Mon Master, and that was with the Pendant Feral and the Firestaff. Maybe I need to train more. Or move my training from the Screamer room to the Rat room (I know the rat room is more effective, but I have always preferred the screamer room for whatever reason).

[MasterWuuf]

I saw one of my characters at Archmaster level, but only because I checked when he was wearing a Pendant Feral and holding the Firestaff. Ironically, it was Halk, who was an Archmaster Wizard because of his equipment!

--Jay

Both oh_brother and you mentioned the pendant feral raising your levels. I did not realize this pendant raised your levels.

By the way, oh_brother, have you ever gone to the bottom level (the long stairway with the winged-key on the wall) to train?
It's a safe place, giving good experience boosts. You just have to run back up to the rat floor occasionally (if you haven't stockpiled food),
to get some food and water. I don't train up much anymore, enjoying the challenge of getting through without super-champions,
but I trained my first champion to arch-master (with no level-adding stuff) doing it that way.

[jayrshaw]

Yes - the Pendant Feral raises a character's Wizard level by one. I think that's why I was able to see Halk as an Archmaster Wizard (as opposed to the other three general skill areas).


--Jay

[oh_brother]

By the way, oh_brother, have you ever gone to the bottom level (the long stairway with the winged-key on the wall) to train?

I know the place you mean, but I have never trained there. If I ever try to get to Archmaster I will start spell-slinging in that spot, but for a fun bit of grinding I still like the screamer room. Call me old-fashioned!

[slickrcbd]

I have used the rat room to play a little catch-up with ninja levels. Especially when returning from deeper levels when I find myself relying more on fireballs and poison bolts than throwing stars and arrows to fight mummies and trollins. Although I don't do things excessively, I mostly just try to clear out the room and area whenever I return to the area by stabbing rats to death without triggering more rats. Often with the aid of YA IR spells that boost my priest levels. Recall that I extolled the virtue of using daggers to work on ninja levels.
Then I drink up and refill my water and move on. I don't grind much anymore. In fact, the primary reason for clearing the rat room is to restock on drumsticks, I just take advantage of the opportunity to work on ninja levels relatively safely, compared to attacking scorpions or oitus (while they aren't much harder, the regeneration rate is insane in the oitus room).
Heck, I don't really grind in the screamer room anymore, I usually skip it entirely until I've reached the end of the next level, then clear it out to stock up on food while gaining ninja levels.

[MasterWuuf]

By the way, oh_brother, have you ever gone to the bottom level (the long stairway with the winged-key on the wall) to train?

I know the place you mean, but I have never trained there. If I ever try to get to Archmaster I will start spell-slinging in that spot, but for a fun bit of grinding I still like the screamer room. Call me old-fashioned!

VIS me calling you..."Old Fashioned!" P.S. As far as I know, I was the first person to get an Archmaster, with no helps (firestaff, etc).
I took an extra champion along with me, to carry stuff, calling him BeoWuuf. Captured a picture of it and placed it on here. Great fun.

slickrcbd: Oitus room. Which room is that? I may have the Oitus confused with another creature, since I don't recall much regeneration.

[slickrcbd]

Oitus look kind of like an orange spider but with only four legs, shriek like a screamer, and have a room where you pick up the Helm of Lyte, the boots of speed, and a few other trinkets but oitus regenerate rapidly in there. I found that it's the one place where I need to use fear effects like Horn of Fear and Staff of Claws. Using that VEN potion you find in the room is not recommended as you need to keep moving to prevent your party from being surrounded and unable to maneuver and you might need to enter the square the oitu just vacated.
That room can be deadly as you get surrounded quite easily going for the treasure, and the oitus are too tough and regenerate too rapidly to clear the room. Luckily they are extremely susceptible to blowing the Horn of Fear or brandishing the Staff of Claws, and other fear weapons like the Snake Staff work on them as well. War Cry - while it does work- is not as effective requiring multiple attempts and wears off much quicker. Heck, it only seems to affect the oitu in front of you while you are getting torn apart by the ones on either side or behind you, while Staff of Claws and Horn of Fear are more effective in driving them off.
http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/781#toc69

[Gambit37]

Oitus look kind of like an orange spider but with only four legs

Look closer...

[MasterWuuf]

Oitus look kind of like an orange spider but with only four legs

I remember having some trouble with this area the first time through, but I don't have all that much trouble now with one champion.
If you make sure the door remains closed, plus make sure the two grate-doors are closed as soon as possible, I enjoy this area.
I even moved a recliner into my dungeon in that area. I take my chips and tomato-based dip, along with some Coke Zero, and take it easy.

[slickrcbd]

Oitus look kind of like an orange spider but with only four legs

Look closer...

I just saved the GIF from the link I provided, then examined it frame by frame with IrFanView (could have sworn you could look at each individual in an animated GIF with that program, but I might be thinking of the Win98SE version or confusing it with Graphics Converter 3.0 on the pre-OS X Mac)
I see four legs and two mandibles or pincers.

[MasterWuuf]

Oitus look kind of like an orange spider but with only four legs

Look closer...

Before they attack, a person might not notice the two front legs (they do seem smaller, don't they?).
Just realized slickrcbd posted as I was posting, so I edited. Mandibles? Yipes! Mean looking creature, to be sure.

Am I correct? Six legs? And that pointy nose, along with those Frosty the Snowman eyes.
And yes, they scared me the first time I saw one of them.
However, nothing like that (second?) mummy, that seems to like hiding in that niche as you wander by.

[jayrshaw]

I just checked out the Oitu animation on Christophe's Dungeon Master Encyclopedia, and to me the two front legs almost look like little arms (similar to what a T-Rex has but longer)...


--Jay

[slickrcbd]

Six limbs for sure, what the front ones are is unclear. They might be legs, pincers, or mandibles.

[Gambit37]

I see two pincers at the front, but the legs have always been peculiar: it looks like two either side, but in fact each pair of legs are attached to the same foot! So one could argue they have two, dual limbed legs. Anatomically that's very weird, but very cool.

Also in CSB, the design was changed slightly, the pincers are different and they have ridges over their eyes.