Trying An Old One

[John Gregory]

I suffered an injury severely limiting my mobility. This will persist until the middle of next month when surgery should put me back up and running. I have a former boss who in the very old days was highly active in the Atari 8 bit community. He still does both hardware hacking and general whatever with that older system. I gave him a call and we chatted which for some reason got me thinking it may be enjoyable to try some of these ancient games to pass the time.

Searching about, I decided on Dungeon Master even though I knew it was an Atari 16 bit game and so frowned on by former boss. It intrigued me a good deal more than spending my days playing Pong. So I found a port that wouldn't run under Win 10 but did inside an interesting bit of emulation programming called a Dosbox. So here I am running a program that once fit on a 1.44 mb floppy on a hot i7 video editing box with 32 gig RAM. I wonder what the ghost of Jack Tramiel is thinking.

I think I'm doing all right but cannot be sure that I'm doing things properly or not making mistakes that will harm my efforts maybe fatally. For example, I got a compass at one point that came in handy on that level dealing with magic misdirectors. However, I wasn't mindful of it so lost it somewhere along the way but found it'd come in highly useful had I retained it. Meanwhile, I'm carrying a bunch of items that have never been useful. I'm also concerned I may have missed something important (such as the Eye of Clyde or somesuch) that will put paid to my efforts by dead ending the game for me.

I think I'm doing all right so far. I would like to ask a few questions.

1. How do I evaluate the efficacy of found weapons? I reasoned that weapons found deeper would be more damaging so discarded the ax found at the level with the purple lampreys. I replaced it with a sword found off a long passage on a level that was one huge room with many enemies which is just below the level that says it's the tomb of the firestick. I'm not at all convinced that the new sword is superior or even the equal of the ax.

2. How do I know the condition of an enemy I'm engaging or what's the best tactic to use against it? I did find that some enemies such as lampreys cannot be engaged face to face but must be lured into a roomy area and so attacked from behind.

3. I spent some time on the lamprey level dispatching angry dwarf tree stumps to buff my PC up. I'm not clear if he's ready to proceed or if I need to labor my way back there to buff some more.

All comments and suggestions welcome.

[Prince of Elves]

Welcome to the forum and have fun with this classic

I don't think there's any way to do gamebreaking mistakes with that one. Compass is a huge help because there's invisible things that turn you around but even those can be done without. You'll just have a harder time spotting them happen.

Personally I think I kept the axe through the whole game, but I never really saw any huge difference between most weapons anyway (maces seem to miss often, but that's all I remember).

Best tactic in general is what Ameena calls "step dance" (I think lol): Facing an enemy step a square to the side, turn to face it when it goes after you, hit - repeat. Through in some spells and you should do just fine.

Worm level (the "lampreys") is always a good place for some initial levelling as well as for food. So are the Screamers (trees).

Just make sure you got food and water and keep your flasks ready, anything else should be fine then.

Have fun

[Paul Stevens]

what Ameena calls "step dance"

The "Dungeon Master Two-Step".

Indeed, Dungeon Master is quite forgiving. There are several items
that make things easier but only a few that you will find are
necessary. I have had to go back and search on occasion but
even that is not too difficult after you have advanced in levels.

[jayrshaw]

Hi John Gregory,

Welcome to the forum! Really hope your surgery goes well and you are able to experience a full recovery from your injury.

The Dungeon Master Encyclopaedia maintained by ChristopheF, the Administrator of this forum, contains a great deal of documentation you can use to research various topics :

http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/247 [**main Encyclopaedia page for Dungeon Master; see links at top of page for separate detailed pages on Champions, Creatures, Items, Spells, Maps, etc.]

http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=taxonomy/term/39 [additional technical documentation on Skills, Experience, Actions, Creatures etc.]


The Compass is one of the most useful items in this game, but you should be able to complete the game without it - if you have some idea of which floor you left the Compass behind on, it may be a good idea to backtrack just to retrieve it.

Which characters are you using, what are their levels in the various skills, and which level of the dungeon are you currently on? My best estimate is that typical players will have their characters at Lo Master or Expert levels in most of their skills around the time they complete the game (although many players like to train their characters beyond this point).

If you look at the "Items" link on the Dungeon Master Encylopaedia I linked to above, that will give you detailed information about all of the weapons in the game - in my experience (generally speaking), weapons with the Stab, Chop, and/or Thrust actions tend to be the most effective. The Axe weapon in this game is actually really excellent considering how early you can acquire it, but there are other weapons which will generate similar or better damage against enemies. It sounds like the sword you picked up is the Delta sword, which is a pretty decent weapon (although a stronger character should get a damage bonus with the Axe due to its weight). Make sure you hold on to Vorpal Blades because they can damage undead enemies with their "Disrupt" ability.

Some items are important to keep in this game (e.g. a certain number of Ra Keys are required to complete the game); that said, most (but not all) of the floors in the game contain most of the items you will need to get through the floor. I actually asked a similar question during my 2020 playthrough of this game - here is a link to the thread, which contains detailed information on this particular matter:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=31342


Hope this information helps - good luck on your playthrough, and feel free to post again to provide an update or if you need any additional assistance!


--Jay

[Ameena]

Hiya, welcome to the forum and to DM in general. It's basically like a "tutorial mode" for the next game, Chaos Strikes Back, so go and play that once you're done with this one. You'll spedn most of your time wandering around cluelessly as you die for the twentieth time but don't worry, we've all been there .

Anyway, for DM, I don't remember ever really using the compass that much. As Prince of Elves says, it can be useful to spot when you've been invisibly turned around, but there isn't too much of that in DM and it's only in a couple of specific places that aren't essential to pass in order to progress. My characters just keep a flask in their off-hands so I can cast potions at need (I don't carry any spare flasks, just one each and cast potions as and when I need them).

To your specific questions...

1.) Weapons have different attack types depending on what they are. I don't really uses axes too much because while their best attack, "Melée", can do a fair amount of damage, I find it a bit slow. Since replaying the game in CSBWin (as opposed to when I originally played it back on the Atari), I've ended up using weapons with the "Thrust" attack (rapier, Delta Blade, Inquisitor) because that feels both fast and damaging. Does the job, anyway . Purple Worms can be fairly tough anyway, so don't feel bad if you have trouble. Level Four (the Worm level) has a regenerating room of Screamers known as, er, the "Screamer Room", near the way down to Level Five, so you can spend a while killing them there, get in some practise, top up your food if you need it, etc.

2.) Um...I suppose just try and fight stuff and see what happens . It's not as if monsters in this game have hp bars over their heads or anything. You just kind of have to get a feel for it based on your own tactics. Monsters mostly don't really use very different tactics between them - the melée-based ones will just move directly toward you and try to hit you until you fall over. Those with ranged attacks will generally do much the same but whilst attacking you as often as possible from a distance. Prince of Elves already mentioned the tactic I refer to as the "step dance" (but other people doubtless have their own names for it) which is very useful against a single creature (or a single cluster of such, ie a group taking up one square) as long as you can see which way they're facing - bit tricky against Rock Monsters, for example. You just need a 2x2 space. You ready an attack. They step up to you. You hit them and quickly sidestep, then turn to face the square you just left, readying another attack. They step forward into that square, you hit them. They turn to face you, you sidestep again. Repeat until they turn into a nice smoke cloud, at no risk to yourself unless you react too slowly or something else shows up .

3.) Your "PC", as in you only have one? I would say that for a first time it's more recommended to take a full group of four, so you have full firepower and inventory space. It's more mouths to feed but you have more weapons and spells between you that you can use to murderise all the bad things and get through to gain more resources and such. My preferred number of characters is two these days, but that's after having messed around with all the other possible party totals . Before I joined this forum (well, its predecessor before several fan forums merged togeter a few years later) I had never actually even considered the possiblity of not playing with four characters - it had just never occurred to me .

Anyway, nice to see new people still finding and playing the game. I hope you continue to enjoy it and go on to play CSB afterward (good luck!) .

[John Gregory]

I think I came to the two step business on my own out of necessity. I found my PC was unable to stand in front of anything but the aggressive tree stumps for long enough to dispatch them.

I chose Tiggy as my PC not realizing at the time that I could choose up to four. So I started out with him as my PC and now that I’m a bit along I may as well try to finish. By memory, my PC is a master wizard, an expert fighter and adept at ninja and priest. I couldn’t decide to run a magician or a fighter so I went magician. If I knew at the time I could have both, I’d have added the upright alligator who seemed to be a great fighter.

I find the two step likely feasible but I lack the reflexes to prevail where I’m stuck now having to deal with rats so I need a larger room where I can flee if needed. There’s a room where they spawn (?) so I decided to try some practice finding a pair split up and cornered me. That was a fright. The lampreys never did that. It was a close one.

I will check out those sources. Thanks. I do have one specific question. I found a skeleton key in the large room level so opened up the staircase learning that there are other entrances in the process. Where I am now, I found a skeleton lock but no nearby key. Where is this key? The skeleton lock is just past an area I needed a Corbomite (?) bit to get into. There’s a room with an alcove containing another Ra key too.

I have spent a good deal of time wandering haplessly searching for this key and am weary of it so would request a spoiler regarding its location. Thanks for all the helpful advice.

[jayrshaw]

Hi again John Gregory,

Choosing Tiggy for a solo run is a pretty rough way to go through your first playthrough of this game! That is most likely the main reason you have been having more difficulty standing in toe-to-toe combat with enemies for an extended period of time during your run than most players using a more standard party would.

As far as finding Skeleton Keys (or any other items available on any particular floor) is concerned, your best bet is to consult the maps on the following page of the Dungeon Master Encyclopaedia:

http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=taxonomy/term/17,42


Be aware that items can be listed under both the Items section and the Creatures section below the map on each individual map page (the latter section containing items which are dropped by specific Creatures present on the floor of the dungeon you are looking at). Also, I believe in the PC version of Dungeon Master, there is one fewer Skeleton Key than there are Skeleton Key locks in the dungeon (if I recall correctly, they threw an extra Skeleton Key into the SNES version of the game to allow players to unlock all of the Skeleton Key locks in that version of the game)....


--Jay

[Prince of Elves]

Solo Tiggy

As for the skeleton keys: the only thing they do is open up a hidden stairway that acts as a shortcut to go back to higher levels (well, as soon as you open at least a second skeleton "door"). So if you want your first run to be mostly spoiler free, don't look at those maps - they contain pretty much every info there is...

[Ameena]

Oof yeah, Tiggy is the squishiest chaarcter - she has the lowest physical stats but is stronger in the magic department. It sounds like you're around the Rat Room near the end of Level Nine - that's a common spot for players to go back to once you've opened the Central Stairwell, since you have that handy room with the fountain close by too.

About the Central Stairwell - that's what the skeleton keys are for. The topmost level of the Stairwell is on Level Eight (the one that's a big open room with ghosts and stuff), and there's a key on all but one of the levels below which you can use to open it up - since there is one key too few you'd need to skip opening it on one of the levels (Level Twelve is a bastard so I normally skip that one as I have no desire to go back to it once I have what I need).

I'm not sure which version of the game you're using - you mentioned DOSBox and I've not played a version on that so it must be one I don't know of. Monster groups aren't supposed to be able to split up, or at least they didn't used to be able to. There is a version of DM/CSB called "CSBWin" which is a direct port of the Atari version if you want the "true" experience. Just before you actaully enter the dungeon, go to the drop-down options menu thing at the top and turn on "DM Rules", otherwise characters will get less health when you recruit them or something.

Still, sounds like you're doing pretty bloody well, given that it's your first game and not only have you only taken on character, that character is Tiggy, the one that more experienced players take on purpose when they want to do basically a "hard-mode" solo run .

[John Gregory]

I wanted the skeleton key to open the passage so I could go up to the Rainbow Door level and open the other rainbow door. I felt it was blind luck and my fumbling about that got me to here at this level (L8) so I had no thought I could navigate back to the upstairs from here. I know I encountered some invisible turners which increased my annoyance at not having that compass. I can't remember where I dropped it or why. I did have it marked in my mind for retention so when I went to get it and found a mirror instead I was both annoyed and baffled. Searching every bit of where I've been seems a daunting task.

Per my previous post, I chose Tiggy as the most potent magic maker. My logic doesn't seem very sound upon encountering reality. I envisioned using ranged spells and if needed, ranged weapons. Prior to starting, I had printed out a cheat sheet of all spells which gave me the idea. I've not been dependent on the scrolls for spell information which is likely the reason I've done better than a newcomer with Tiggy otherwise would or so I infer from the group sense.

There is no menu in the opening scene. There's a scroll at the bottom of the choice list saying Copyrights from the mid 80s to, IIRC, 1990. My guess is that this is a PC native code that was designed to run under DOS and likely could have run under many Windows, but is impossible under Win10 64 without emulation. Thus the Dosbox.

I asked about the location of the key because I was unable to decipher the maps at dmweb. However, I returned there determined to understand what I was looking for. As is often the case, whilst staring at the map, it all came into focus and I went to an area I'd carelessly strolled through and did find the key or should I say I dispatched a midget monk who was carrying it. I did that with one stroke of my weapon finding it enormously satisfying to have done so.

I did open the passageway as well as the second rainbow door to a decided anticlimax. Per the post above, now I know that there is at least one more Ra key. I also do not feel adept at dealing with the rats. Pairs have almost defeated me several times now. I'm both not fast enough and so far, I can't get them in a large room such as the lampreys. I think my PC needs additional practice so I'll head up and get a bit buffed before proceeding further. I may pause my progress for long enough to go up even further and look for that compass.

While I do understand a 2x2 room should be adequate for stepping foes, I tend to get disoriented and so from time to time get out of step. In a larger room, I then retreat and start the process over. I've never been able to find the rats situated so that I could get them into the rhythm of my fight.

I'm headed back up for some practice. The comment that this is a training day for the real game, CSB, was intimidating.

[jayrshaw]

John Gregory: I agree with Ameena's assessment that you have made excellent progress with your playthrough so far given that this is your first attempt at Dungeon Master and you have been working with Tiggy as a solo character! Glad to hear you were eventually able to decipher the maps on the Dungeon Master Encyclopaedia. Your initial plan to rely mainly on magic and ranged physical weapons sounds reasonable in principle, but there are many enemies in this game who are essentially invulnerable to ranged physical weapons (including enemies on very early floors of the dungeon, such as Rockpiles and Magenta Worms); there are also some key enemies on later floors who are invulnerable to magical attacks, as well. You may end up having to resort to some of the tactics used by speedrunners like Antman to get through the playthrough unless you decide to return all the way to the top floor of the dungeon to reincarnate additional Champions....


--Jay

[Prince of Elves]

Concerning the rats: I remember my first time ever into DM, together with a friend. We had a full party of four and we had trained them a bit (no grinding, but no rushing through either). The rats still wiped us out first time we saw them and we had to be quite careful around them later too - they just hit quite hard...

[Ameena]

I tend to use weapons more often early on, until I get my Wizard levels high enough that I can reliably Fireball most things without constantly running out of mana/failing the spell. then I basically do that all the time unless I need to use Harm Non-Material Being instead. I'll sometimes practice a bit against things like screamers or skeletons, which don't deal too much damage so it's not too risky if I get hit. At least, that's what I did when I had a team of four - put the back two at the front to give them some melée practise so their Fighter levels go up and they get some more hp. Since I started running around with just a pair that's not really been necessary, since they both get to do all the things all the time .

It sounds like you're still doing okay, but if you get too frustrated with things you could always just start again - now you know you can take a full party and that you want to keep the compass, you can make up for those and also probably get back to where you were reasonably quickly given that you've already got that far once .

[John Gregory]

I feel a bit more optimistic after my session today.

I grew determined to locate that compass to the point I was unwilling to proceed without it or a maximum effort at re-locating it. I managed to make it up to L3 or the worm level (not lampreys). I wasn’t able to think of a cogent method for getting through this level even using the magic footprints and the blue curtained transporters. My problem was compounded by finding numerous worm pairs which were dispatched without much difficulty (as opposed to the first run-through) but I’d get turned around doing so.

I kept running in circles until I oriented at a place whereby I found my way up to L2. A search of the Choose Your Doom rooms proved futile. I gave up to eat lunch.

Fueled with other than worm sections, I figured that I’d tried so headed back down. On the way, I passed a chest I managed to overlook. Right here in the chest was the compass. Hooray! However returning through the worm level again proved grossly frustrating until again, a random turn oriented me back into the worm regen room.

I tried fighting worms using kicks, punches and tossing sections of dead worms at them. At this point, my PC is up to master wizard and the rest expert. I never kicked or punched a worm to death but did manage to beat a few using the dismembered bodies of their companions. I was able to dispatch a few tree stumps using kicks and tossing pieces of deceased trees at them.

Jayshaw’s avatar is the one I took for an upright alligator and the one I’d recruit to be a companion for Tiggy. I wasn’t sure if I could go back to make an additional choice. After what seemed like hours lost in the worm level, I doubt I’ll make the effort. The added PC would need a great deal of training at this point anyway.

I’m going to try a strategy of piling all I think I’ll need in chests but leave these chests at what I think of as encampments while I venture out to explore. This will leave my PC carrying below a 20 kg load for battle where he has the ultimate capacity of about 55 kg. I need speed more than any other characteristic when dealing with rats and presumably, faster, more deadly foes ahead. So far I’ve only died once – when I fell into a hole while engaging a dragon.

[Prince of Elves]

"A" dragon? There's only one and no holes to fall into with that one.

[Paul Stevens]

He must have seen a Couatl and thought it looked like a Dragon.

[jayrshaw]

Glad to hear you managed to find the Compass, John Gregory! I think one of the biggest obstacles you will have to overcome to complete the playthrough is getting through some of the enemies on the final floors of the dungeon which are immune to magical attacks.

If you haven't backtracked down any further from the Magenta Worm level of the dungeon yet, I would still consider heading back to the top floor to pick up Hissa and/or other companions since you are already most of the way there - you can train the new character(s) to a fairly proficient level very quickly in the Screamer room of the Magenta Worm level of the dungeon....


--Jay

[John Gregory]

Paul Stevens is correct. I looked at the Wiki. What I called a dragon was in fact, a couatl. It startled me in the room with the opening/closing floor hatches to the point I stepped poorly falling to my death. I posted my last note after I'd made it back to the worm reproduction area. After all that time wandering lost and clearly repeating my paths, I have no stomach to return to the museum of portraits to choose Hissa. Barring something wholly unexpected, I am never going further upward of the worm reproduction area.

I found that even my PC buffed by the trips up and down is still overwhelmed by the rats. I plan on exploring further leaving the rats until later if at all. I am anxious about what comes ahead if I can't handle this level's foes. I suppose if needed, I'll restart the game with a reasonable team, but I'll play this one out until I succeed or know I can't. I don't see how any team can address the rats in combat given it's my reaction time as the limit.

One thing I've not mentioned is a physical issue doing the DM step. I'm righthanded so use the mouse with that hand. The only keys that will move my PC are the 1,2,3,5 on the number pad. My keyboard is an extended one so I move my PC with my left hand but that has to cross my body to get to the keys. My hand is on the keys at an angle too. Thus it's awkward and my hand often falls off the keys resulting in some fast times.

The rats don't give me any time to recover from a key fumble so if foes to come are faster yet, I'm unclear how I can prevail especially given the hints here that magic won't work at some time soon.

[Paul Stevens]

unclear how I can prevail especially given the hints here that magic won't work at some time soon.

Do not despair. Things are not really that bad. Tiggy is built
to throw fireballs and she will learn to fight very well as your fingers
begin to do all the work for you without your having to think.

A big secret of dealing with rats, worms, and such is to learn
where the generator triggers are located so that you can avoid
creating additional monsters when they are not wanted. In this
way you can completely clean out entire levels so that there are
absolutely zero monsters, allowing you to wander about easily.

[jayrshaw]

How much Health does your Tiggy have, John Gregory? Also, are you playing a version of the game that lets you select the speed you are playing at? If so, I suggest setting the speed to a level which is slow enough for your reactions to easily keep pace with anything going on in the game (at least in situations where you are likely to enter into combat with one or more dangerous enemies).

Here are some other miscellaneous tips for surviving in combat:

1. As Paul Stevens indicated, the vast majority of non-undead enemies in this game can be killed easily with a relatively small number of high-level Fireball spells. This is one of the main reasons I stated the enemies on floors near the end of the game who are immune to Fireballs and Poison spells are likely to be one of your biggest problems getting through the game. It is also one of the chief advantages to using a party of four Champions instead of party of one to three Champions - four Champions have a huge mana pool compared to a solo Champion and can generally lob a huge number of Fireballs at any enemies they encounter without using all that great a percentage of their overall mana pool at any given time (they can also have four Fireball spells prepared at the same time, which will allow you to execute multiple Fireball spells in very quick succession).

2. For a solo character going toe-to-toe against powerful enemies who have a decent chance of landing multiple hits against you, you definitely want to be using buffs. Buffs stack in this game, and you will need to layer several level buff spells/potions if you want a given buff to be effective enough to make a substantial difference in your character's performance. The buffs which will likely help Tiggy's survivability the most are Ya Bro (Shield Potion), Ya Ir (Shield Party), and Oh Bro Ros (Ros / Dexterity Potion). The most mana-efficient way of layering stat potions like Oh Bro Ros is to continuously stack Lo (minimum) level potions until the stat is above 120, at which point the effect of additional stat-boosting potions will be halved compared to their normal efficacy; the buffed stat will slowly degrade over time as long as it is below twice the character's natural base level for the stat and more quickly once it exceeds this level. For Shield potions/buffs, you generally want to stack several layers of Mon (maximum) level potions/buffs immediately prior to a point where you know you will encounter one or more difficult enemies; unlike stat potions, Shield potions/buffs each last for a set period of time and disappear entirely once that period of time elapses. The Ya Bro (Shield Potion) buff, while providing the same type of benefit as the Ya Ir (Shield Party) buff, is tracked by the game as a completely separate buff - for this reason, you want a layer of several Ya Bro buffs in addition to a separate layer of Ya Ir buffs when directly engaging enemies with powerful physical attacks.

3. It is also advisable to have a layer of Ya Bro Dain (Dane / Wisdom Potion) buffs up at all times, which will drastically improve Tiggy's mana recovery rate. This will help not only with generally keeping her mana level higher at any given time but will also enable her to learn Healer and Wizard levels substantially faster than she would be able to without the buff. Once Tiggy's Wisdom is 112 or above, her mana recovery rate will be maximized. Like with the Oh Bro Ros (Rox / Dexterity) Potions, the most mana-efficient way of layering Ya Bro Dain potions is to continuously stack Lo (minimum) level potions until Tiggy's Wisdom is above 120.

4. Keep a Flask in one of Tiggy's hands at all times so you can quickly create potions when necessary. Be prepared to temporarily retreat far enough from any given enemy you encounter to quickly prepare and drink a few Mon (maximum) level Vi (Health) potions.

5. It may be a good idea for you to simply attempt avoid and/or run past difficult enemies if you can get to where you need to without engaging them in combat - this is particularly advisable for the enemies near the end of the game which are immune to Fireballs and Poison spells. In a worst-case scenario, you can attempt to lure enemies away from a location you need to enter and then run past them. Once you obtain a pair of Boots of Speed, engaging in this tactic should become substantially easier (particularly if you are able to set the speed of the game so that it is very slow). Using a Magical Box item on an enemy will also temporarily freeze that enemy, which is likely useful in various situations where you may want to bypass a particular enemy; I believe Magical Boxes will work against essentially every enemy in the game - however, there is a finite quantity of Magical Box items in the game, and the longer-duration Green Magical Boxes are significantly rarer than the shorter-duration Blue Magical Boxes.

6. As a last resort, there are some situations where you can employ a technique speedrunners of this game use to defeat certain difficult enemies which involves luring them to a pit and (if I recall correctly) using the teleporter within the pit to teleport directly into the location where the enemy is positioned - successfully executing this technique will result in the enemy being killed instantly. There is one enemy on a later floor which is immune to magic and which you *must* kill in order to obtain a key item the enemy is holding - the technique I just described is one way of killing that enemy (although stacking buffs and simply fighting the enemy using physical attacks and healing when necessary may actually be less aggravating in practice).


Here are some links to old threads with more details on some of the items listed above:

Effectiveness of Buff Potions: viewtopic.php?t=28394 | viewtopic.php?f=27&t=31343

Various Game Mechanics (including Shield Potions/Spells): viewtopic.php?f=27&t=31345&hilit=automaton&start=30

Speedrun Techniques: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=22508


Hope this information helps! Let me know if you need any clarification on any of the information described above.


--Jay

[John Gregory]

I have progressed down to a level where the chief antagonist is what I took for a crustacean but later I decided is a giant arachnid. I didn’t look it up in the Wiki because whatever it is makes the rats look tame. I note some are referring to my PC as a she. I’m surprised.

I also think there’s been an enormous jump in difficulty both with the endurance of the foes and the puzzles. Up until recently, I only gave up on a treasure room with many blue curtain transporters. However, I spent a good deal of time zooooming about until I lucked out on an escape. That’s another area I don’t wish to repeat.

If there is a speed control in my game, I don’t see it. The Dosbox can regulate the computer clock but I don’t see that as helpful since I’m sure this game isn’t governed by that clock. My computer runs at 4.5gig or so. Any game timed to that would be impossible to play. I am sure that my DM version is the one that’s native to the PC. The Wiki made mention that it’s the only version with music at the opening screen. Mine has such music.

I did manage to acquire Speed Boots by accident. I still don’t know how I stumbled into them fleeing some enemy. I’m unclear how much they speed me up vs the monsters slowing down. So far I’ve not been able to fairly engage the arachnids because any attempt to do so has attracted other foes forcing me to flee in a blind panic. The floating eyes and arachnids seem, at least so far, to team up.

I’ve managed to find another skeleton key but I’m unsure if I wish to use it here. My desire to return to fight the yellow arachnids is slight. I appreciate Jay’s tutorials on buffing. I hadn’t considered that but will now. I did cast shield on the party not realizing it stacked. I tried buffing strength thinking that would work in the melee combat but was disappointed. I’ll try the others. Tiggy did gain a level despite ‘her’ already being a master so she’s now a double master, it seems. I can’t see how I can get ‘her’ up to master ninja because running about kicking arachnids seems pointless and likely fatal.

My PC’s wisdom is now 64 so there’s a long way until ‘she’ is able to quickly regen mana. I suspect that unless this game is 30 or so storeys deep, I’ll never get there. I may also be overburdened with items such as the rabbit foot and a magnifier both of which are in chests slowing me down. I don’t wish spoilers but do find the enormous amount of useless items baffling. I did pick up a moonstone here too – another item I am unsure has a use. I regret failing to stock up on flasks using those spaces for items that are of questionable value.

I see no immediate benefit of using the skeleton stairs so will retain this key for later use. What I would like to know is how I can determine a foe isn’t susceptible to magic? The arachnids took four full power fireballs each plus some ax beating to die. Oh, also, is a fireball the best I can do in offensive magic? I see there are other choices but am using fireballs as they seem to use less mana.

[jayrshaw]

Hi again John Gregory,

Congratulations making it through the Pain Rat level of the dungeon! Here's some additional information/questions in response to the information you just posted:

1. Tiggy is definitely supposed to be female - see the following Champions page on the Dungeon Master Encyclopaedia: http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/199

2. Sounds like the enemies you were dealing with are Giant Scorpions - there is another enemy you can encounter a bit later in the dungeon which looks even more like an arachnid, so I was a bit confused about which of the two enemies you were referring to at first. The Giant Scorpions have average resistance to Fireballs (actually a bit worse than Pain Rats), but they probably also have high Health levels. Fireball is definitely the most effective offensive spell in this game in the vast majority of situations; however, there are some enemies in the game which are far more resistant to Poison Bolt / Poison Cloud than they are to Fireballs.

3. If you don't mind semi-spoilers, the two enemies who are completely resistant to Fireball and Poison attacks are called

Spoiler

Animated Armours and Stone Golems; the former looks like a knight in a suit of armor, and the latter looks like a grey golem/giant holding a club. You need to kill one of the Animated Armours to obtain an Emerald Key you need to proceed further in the dungeon; two of the Stone Golems are also guarding a key item you need to complete the game, but it is technically possible to obtain the item and escape without engaging the Golems in combat.

4. How much Maximum Health and Maximum Mana does Tiggy have in your game? This could help me make a better estimation of what her capabilities are and how difficult certain enemies and situations in the dungeon might be for her. I was initially thinking that having relatively low Maximum Health would be a more critical concern for your particular playthrough, but I forgot that you are probably dealing with a very limited pool of mana, as well.

5. While we're at it, what is Tiggy's Maximum Load Capacity in your game? I'm guessing it could potentially be quite low given that Tiggy has the lowest natural Strength of any character in the game. If you were still on an earlier floor of the dungeon, I would strongly recommend getting and equipping Tiggy with the pair of Elven Boots which is located on the Magenta Worm level of the dungeon since these will increase a character's Maximum Load Capacity. Given your situation, you may want to examine the items in Tiggy's inventory and discard any of the heavier ones which you believe may be expendable [you can ask here if you aren't sure about a specific item] - you don't want Tiggy to be in a state where her Current Load is even approaching her Maximum Load Capacity, since this will cause her movement in the dungeon to slow down substantially (I believe this will be the case even if she is wearing a pair of Boots of Speed). For the playthrough you are doing, it is more critical to have fast movement speed than it is to wear even slightly heavy armor or carry anything remotely heavy which isn't absolutely essential. It may be worth considering keeping a layer of Ku (Strength) potion buffs up to increase Tiggy's carrying capacity, but doing this is generally less critical than maintaining a layer of Dane (Wisdom) potion buffs.

6. It is generally impossible for a character to reach 112 in his/her natural level for any of the stats except for Anti-Magic, and very unlikely for any player to even approach this level for any stat during a typical playthrough. However, you can easily reach this level for any stat artificially using stat potions. Generally speaking, unless you really hate the hassle of frequently refreshing layers of buffs, it is a good idea to keep a layer of Dane (Wisdom) Potion buffs on your characters at all times once they have relatively high Maximum Mana so they can experience maximum Mana recovery. Wisdom determines how frequently a character recovers Mana, while Maximum Mana determines the amount of Mana he/she will recover each time he/she recovers mana [a character will recover an additional point of Mana per recovery tick for every 40 points of Maximum Mana the character has].

7. Generally speaking, Ku (Strength) Potion buffs are more useful for increasing a character's carrying capacity than they are for improving his/her performance in combat (although these buffs will also increase the amount of damage your character deals in close-range combat to some extent); for some reason, Ku Potions increase a character's Strength by fewer points on average than the other stat potions in this game do. Ros (Dexterity) Potion buffs will increase a character's likelihood of landing close-range physical attacks against enemies and his/her likelihood of avoiding close-range physical attacks made against the character by enemies [the latter of these is the main reason I suggested using these buffs to help with your solo Tiggy run].

8. Boots of Speed should theoretically allow your characters to zip through the dungeon at an incredible speed compared to the normal rate they can move at - they are popular with a lot of the more experienced players of this forum, but I never used them myself (partially because you need four pairs of them if you want them to work properly with a party of four Champions and partially because, like you, my limiting factor generally seemed to be my own reflexes more than the theoretical speed with which my characters could potentially navigate through the dungeon).


Hope this additional information helps!

--Jay

[jayrshaw]

Oops - in Item 2 above, I meant to say "however, there are some enemies in the game which are far more susceptible to Poison Bolt / Poison Cloud than they are to Fireballs."


--Jay

[Ameena]

Yes, Tiggy is female - I was gonna post an image of the part of the DM Encyclopaedia page where it says this, but Jayrshaw has already posted a link to the page itself .

The yellow arachnids are indeed arachnids, yes - they are Giant Scorpions, as Jayrshaw says. And yes, they are a pain. And they make a horrible noise when they attack . The Beholders are annoying too, but at least not new to you since you will have met them on Level Six (the level with the Riddle Room).

If you want to boost Ninja skills, you can do so by throwing items if you want. I tend to completely neglect Ninja until I get down to about Level Nine or thereabouts, where I then take some time to have each character throw a chest until it actually travels to the next square (about Journeyman level if I remember rightly), at which point I am too lazy to keep stepping over and picking it up. So they never get any further than that with that skill .

The Central Stairwell (unlocked via the skeleton keys) is useful for backtracking - you can leave as-yet-unwanted/unneeded stuff in a pile somewhere nearby and just go back up there if you need it. A common spot for this is on Level Nine, since the stairwell there comes out beside a room (with a button-operated door which you can therefore close to keep out any nasties you may have missed) containing a water fountain, and which is just along the corridor from the Rat Room if you happen to need food.

In terms of items that you need, those are really only

Spoiler

specific keys

, or to be more specific,

Spoiler

the Ra keys, which you're already familiar with

and a bit later,

Spoiler

the Master key, as if the name wasn't enough of an indication

. There is one other item but you're not there yet and it should be fairly obvious. Btw have you read the game's backstory yet? It's in the manual (PDF available to read/download on the Encyclopaedia) and might explain a few things about what you're supposed to be doing in the dungeon, if you weren't already aware.

[John Gregory]

Thanks all. I’ll keep the spoilers covered hoping I can work things out for myself. I’m concerned about spoiling dulling the game for me. I’ll return here to uncover them if I feel I’m stuck. I’ve divested myself of a sword and an ax so I’ll rely on another ax I picked up recently. I’ve retained the Vorpal sword. The term ‘Vorpal’ seems familiar.

That’s the reason I didn’t consult the Wiki about Tiggy’s sex. I accidentally hit a few spoilers when I was looking for something else there. From here on in, I’ll accept that I’m woman even if I don’t feel it.

I had the elven boots but didn’t know they were a buff until I swapped them for speed boots. The difference was, IIRC, 5 kg. My load capacity now is 49kg. My chief enemy so far seems to be enemy speed vs. my speed so I think the trade should work out although if the enemies speed continues to increase, I’ll soon find the game unplayable. I’ll remember my stats to post them next time. I’m too mentally tired now to boot the game again to get them.

I said before that to my mind, the game grew considerably more difficult from the large room level to the rat level. It’s not just the enemies but the layout. My entire game day today was consumed walking in a square. I figured here’s a perfect place for magic footprints but my scheme to walk backward noting the stop and start of footprints which I guessed was caused by silent transporters to an identical layout place, wasn’t entirely successful or wasn’t quickly so.

After an exhausting time of it, I think I’m free because I’m in a static area with several doors. The door areas have no indication of what’s behind (such as monster cavern earlier). I lacked the mental stamina to continue so shut things down for the day having done the least amount of linear progress since day 1.

I now have logged another area I never wish to travel through again – this transporting (if that’s it) square area. I’m glad at having retained the skeleton key from the scorpion area for a lower entry so I can skip these two levels when, I’m sure, I need to travel upward again after finding the missing Ra key. I’m guessing the direct staircase’s purpose is specifically that. I can’t be the only one who never wishes to spend more fruitless hours marching about in a squared circle.

I have not read the purpose of the game. I may later but so far am enjoying the unfolding mystery.

[Paul Stevens]

this transporting (if that’s it) square area

The Clockwise Room, perhaps? Indeed, there seems no rhyme
or reason or hints to this puzzle. I've spent a few minutes there
myself even after having played this game a couple dozen times.
Thankfully, wrong moves do not create Rock Piles.

[jayrshaw]

Yes - if you are referring to the "Clockwise" room, that was my single least favorite experience in this game. It took me a significant length of time to complete this section of the dungeon even after reading an explanation of how to proceed - I am fairly certain that if I had encountered that part of the dungeon without access to a walkthrough, I would have likely given up on the game after getting frustrated with the puzzle....


--Jay

[Ameena]

Oh yeah, that bit at the start of Level Eleven...yeah, that's kind of a pain. I've similarly never quite managed to work out exactly how it works, just kind of walk following the directions and eventually I get out . Fortunately the rest of that level is pretty straightforward. But have fun on Level Twelve .

[John Gregory]

Good to read that I'm not alone in having rambled about that area finally exiting but not knowing how I did it. I haven't returned to the game today due to real world obligations that may end later on. There are several areas of this game where I ran in a panic or randomly ending up where I should be or having found a useful artifact such as the speed boots.

Having an unused skeleton key should make it unnecessary for me to repeat that area. I'm curious what I'll find behind all these doors. So far I've yet to open any. Later or tomorrow.

[jayrshaw]

Look forward to seeing your next update when you are able to continue with your playthrough again, John Gregory!


--Jay