Trying An Old One

[Ameena]

Hehe, "running in a panic or randomly ending up where you should be or having found a useful artifact" is basically how CSB goes when you first play it. So look forward to that once you've finished DM .
Oh, that's a point...you can import your DM party into CSB when you start it, but I dunno if I would recommend your doing so because your party is only one character and she is the squishiest. I mean, you can certainly go for it but know that CSB is much harder than DM. I know you haven't even finished DM yet but I figured I should probably mention this now in case I forget later .

[John Gregory]

I'll keep that in mind, Ameena. Right now agenda is fully booked with DM.

The good news is that my progress at this level improved dramatically after the poor start in the Backwards area. I now have two skull keys. I went through an area with many blue cavemen I now know are Trolins. I was able to battle them using melee weapons unless another blue team engaged me from another angle whereby I'd have to dispatch one of the foe team using fireballs. After then, I'd return to battling the surviving team with melee weapons. I have an array of superior melee weapons also - Diamond Edge, Fury and an upgraded ax (Hard Case?). I'm retaining all three unable to determine which is the best.

Now exiting the Trolin rooms, I'm ready to push on. I'm also undecided if unlocking the skeleton stairs at this level is advisable but since I may not discover the entrance, I find the issue moot.

Per Jay's request, here are my PC's stats:

HP 490
ST 258
MN 188

STR 48
DEX 57
WIZ 64
VIT 44
ANTI-Magic 78
ANTI-Fire 47

[jayrshaw]

Glad the rest of your journey through the "Clockwise" floor of the dungeon went well! My guess is that the game developers tried to make the remaining parts of that floor relatively easy to make up for the terrible "Clockwise" puzzle at the beginning of the floor.

Your Tiggy actually has pretty decent Health and Mana. My guess is that she should be able to survive toe-to-toe combat with powerful enemies for a relatively prolonged period of time if properly buffed. She should also have sufficient Mana to maintain most/all of the buffs she needs at any given time. However, she simply doesn't have the Mana pool necessary to dole out the huge number of consecutive Mon (maximum) level Fireballs that a group of four well-trained Champions can, and this will limit her available tactics in certain situations.

It looks like Tiggy also has halfway decent strength given how little she starts out with (and therefore should have a halfway decent Maximum Load capacity) - I believe you previously stated Tiggy's Maximum Load capacity is ~49 KG, correct? Is Tiggy's Current Load well below her Maximum Load capacity? Don't let Tiggy's Current Load get anywhere near the Maximum Load capacity amount or it will slow down her movements substantially.

I would drop all of the weapons you found somewhere except for the Diamond Edge (and a Vorpal Blade if you still have one). Generally speaking, you should use "Chop" with the Diamond Edge on standard enemies and "Disrupt" with the Vorpal Blade on undead enemies - using "Stab" with the Diamond Edge should result in more damage over time than using "Chop," but the "Stab" action imposes a significant negative modifier to your character's defensive capabilities which the "Chop" action does not.

Hope this helps, and good luck with the next floor of the dungeon (which I believe you will find quite challenging)!


--Jay

[Ameena]

The uber axe is called Hardcleave. I think you would've got that on Level Ten (the one with the scorpions). Personally, at least since playing the game in CSBWin, I've ended up gravitating toward weapons that have a "Thrust" attack since it seems good damage at a decent attack speed. So my weapons go rapier -> Delta Blade -> Diamond Edge (with the other character getting the previous one as a hand-me-down once I find the next one).
Anyway yeah, sounds like you're still going pretty well. I'll echo Jayrshaw and say good luck on the next level .

[oh_brother]

the "Stab" action imposes a significant negative modifier to your character's defensive capabilities

Wow, you learn something new every day (Or, more accurately in this case, every 35 years).

[Paul Stevens]

the "Stab" action imposes a significant negative modifier to your character's defensive capabilities

Hmmmm. I am having trouble understanding how this can be.
Can you be more specific as to any evidence or references
that lead you to believe this to be true? Maybe I am misinterpreting
your words.

[ChristopheF]

As shown on http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/690 each action applies a defense modifier to the champion until he/she can perform another action. 'Stab' is indeed the worst for defense.

[Paul Stevens]

As shown ... each action applies a defense modifier

Speaking of learning something new about Dungeon Master!
That I was unaware of this says something.

And the interesting thing is that it is not a timed effect. What
constitutes an "action" that will cancel this modifier? Casting
a fireball? Creating a potion? Pressing a switch? Throwing
a worm round? Or only one of the 44 actions listed in your
web page? If the latter, I could conceivably run around the
dungeon killing monsters for hours with a negative defense
modifier resulting from a long-forgotten 'stab'.

[ChristopheF]

This is actually a timed effect, the time is in the Fatigue column for each action in the same table. It is the amount of time the action icon is grayed out, preventing the champion from attacking again until this times out. The defense modifier applies only during this short period of time.

However if you were to modify the data and set Fatigue to 0 for an action, the defense modifier of that action would get permanent. Fortunately, in the original game all actions with defense <> 0 also have fatigue > 0

[John Gregory]

Little to report aside from fatigue.

This level has, at least for me, greater tension than any other I can recall. I ended up spending more time on the level with the backward puzzle rooms after finding another cross key in the vending machine area, I decided to backtrack to see what was behind the other of the three doors.

The next door had puddle monsters exclusively. These proved to be difficult to handle using the Vorpal and spells. I quickly saw that my conventional weapons had no effect on them so figured they were in the class where the Vorpal dispel would. Logically, fireballs would do the trick on water but they didn’t. Following dispel, I used the magic that also worked on the Boo monsters from the big room and the start of the purple worm area. It took a good deal of effort to defeat each one. Two cornered me at one time, but since one was badly enervated by then, I concentrated on that one, defeated it and then fled. It was a very close call.

My two journeys through garnered me sufficient coin to liberate all the coined treasures at the end of this level. I never found the third cross key so remain ignorant of what was behind door #3.

I established my new base camp in the coin slot room and so ventured downward. My first acquaintance in my new neighborhood was a floating mollusk that likewise proved vulnerable to Vorpal. It took me a few iterations falling through camouflaged holes and subsequently disputing with a fire dish before I caught on to the toggle at the room’s entrance. The area past the formerly camouflaged holes revealed nothing of interest at least for now.

The other side did include an encounter with what you guys have been hinting at – the crustacean backed up by two mollusks. These were easily dispatched because of their reluctance, like some other foes earlier, of passing a particular point. I slide right to hit, slide left instantly to escape and continue until the battle’s won. I go on tomorrow looking closer at the area because there must be a key I overlooked or I’m deadended.

Yes, my PC’s maximum load is now 49 kg. I try to keep her (hmmm) to below 20 kg for faster movement. While I can take a few hits from foes, I prefer to avoid them because if I die, I lose my progress. I chronically do not save as often as I should. I have chests full of food but ran low on water. I will first return to the rat level to fill up my waterskins and flasks. I’ll spend one skull key on this retaining the other for now.

As to the often hinted at CSB, I don’t see how the game can be appreciably more difficult yet still playable. My initial strategic error of choosing a single that, as often mentioned, is squishy (?), looks foolish now. Then again, I wonder about feeding and watering four when water ran dry with one.

This is a strangely involving game. I find myself unable to play for extending time lately due to the tension and resulting fatigue.

[John Gregory]

Oh, I didn't entirely follow the loss of defense discussion. Perhaps it'll make sense to me later on. Since standing in front of enemies bashing away isn't my style, I'm unsure how much it affects me.

[jayrshaw]

ChristopheF: Thank you for providing additional explanatory details about the defensive modifiers associated with performing various actions - I wouldn't have been able to explain a lot of it very competently, myself.

John Gregory: It is only possible to acquire two Cross Keys on Floor 10 of the dungeon, so you have to choose two of the three doors to explore and leave the third area closed (I saved before checking out each of the areas during my 2020 playthrough of Dungeon Master). You are keeping Tiggy's Current Load well below the level where she would be at risk of suffering a significant penalty due to excess weight. If you have become proficient at fighting with close-range weapons and then ducking away to avoid being hit, you may not need to worry as much about the defensive modifiers - during my playthrough, I generally just stood and fought until I killed the magic-resistant creature(s) I encountered (with the exception of certain enemies at the very end of the game), so it was relevant for my own playthrough [I also just stood and fought many of the enemies I encountered prior to training my characters in the Screamer room of the Magenta Worm level of the dungeon, but tended to rely mostly on Fireballs throughout my trek through the rest of the dungeon after training in this area until I began encountering magic-resistant enemies near the end of the game]. Regardless, though, using Chop instead of something like Stab will help prevent your character from being more vulnerable to stray close-range attacks which may land while your character is still recovering from executing an attack action....


--Jay

[Ameena]

Ahh, the wonderful Level Twelve...yeah the Spell Vines are a pain (the ones that look like a floating blue globe with twined brown vine thingys hanging down). The Knights and Giant Spiders are..well, also annoying but at least they can't cast spells .

[Simon]

Tiggy is definitely male, it's a bug in the game that says they're female

[Ameena]

Lol, stop it .

[John Gregory]

Even at my current levels, I can't stand in front of most and bash away. The few I can think of are the trees, the green things with red eyes and skeletons. Even the latter will deal me some serious damage if I'm standing there doing a toe to toe.

After contending in what seemed like a forever fight against two ghost knights, I decided to take a breather so having another Ra key, I moved up to the level with the rainbow doors. The third key was the trick but after a good deal of welcome peaceful exploration, I had to deal with a large gray foe that hit harder than any other foe I've encountered. It also took so many hits from my PC that I was about to give up.

The problem I had with it and then them is that my strikes did little damage. I'm used to most of my strikes garnering double or even triple figure damage counts but I was stuck often in the single digits with these. One was held behind a barrier so I did the slide, strike, slide to dispatch it but it was a grueling, drawn out affair given the preponderance of my hits were less than 10 damage. The other one chased me into a room where I could step about but sometimes lost the rhythm resulting in me getting hit to the tune of double or triple damages. When I encountered a third one, behind a button controlled rainbow door, I noted I was low on food so packed it in for a run to the worm level.

I was sorely delayed by carelessness. My diamond edge was stolen by a hunchback in the big room causing me to hang around there, sleeping several times, until it returned where I defeated it using an overly powerful fireball. Down at the scorpion level, I managed to trap one of those in an alcove. I calmly kicked it to death enjoying every kick.

I'm now a solid Master aside from an Expert ninja.

BTW, I'm running with light clothes on or no armor at all. My thought is speed is my friend. I am casting shield spells so hope that will do it. I can't carry my load and run armor.

The idea of contending with another gray foe is enervating. No strategy I came up with seemed effective.

[Prince of Elves]

The big grey dudes are Stone Golems, you had been warned about those somewhere in the thread And yeah, them being stone and huge makes them hard to wear down. Also they can one-hit pretty much every character (well, almost: I remember my first run that I did with a friend and we fled from one of those into an impasse... We did nothing else than do VI flasks after every of his hits and put some in ourselves whenever we got time for it. Was a long, sharp lesson but we got the point (OK, different genre ). We managed to survive it.)

And yeah, Gigglers (the thiefs) are some of the most annoying enemies in there.

[John Gregory]

I got filled with ambition so decided to take on the balance of the stone golems. I did find a strategy that worked. One came from a room on the way to the stairs that connect to the skeleton passage. That one took a long time. The next two I lured into that room and stepped them but added tossing the clubs of the deceased ones at them as an added hit. It seems to have worked because they definitely ran from the thrown clubs. The last one (so far?) was likewise trapped so fell to the slide left/right procedure. Five down with ?? to go.

To my disappointment, the deaths of the stone golem guards did not open the doors nor did the wing key I can't find a lock for. Either I walked by something important earlier where the key to the black locks securing two rainbow doors are or the wing key will be useful lower.

@Prince of Elves - no doubt I was told earlier about stone golems but there's been a good deal to remember so I forgot it or didn't associate the 'stone golem' with what I took to be a grey gorilla.

[jayrshaw]

John Gregory: Sounds like you're doing a great job! The Animated Armours and Stone Golems you just said you were able to defeat successfully are the enemies we warned you about earlier which are immune to Fireballs and Poison spells. These enemies (particularly the Stone Golems) generally took me a few minutes of continuous close-range physical attacks using the Diamond Edge and Hardcleave [using the "Chop" action] to kill even with two On Master (i.e., 3rd Master level) Fighters with both Strength and Dexterity buffed in the ~140-155 range. It was possible for the Stone Golems to occasionally hit these characters for over 100 damage, but I only saw them manage this very infrequently; having the characters equipped with the best armor in the game and buffed with multiple layers of Shield Party spells, Shield Potions, Ros (Dexterity) Potions, and Neta (Vitality) Potions ensured that their Health levels never really fell below 700 or so (their maximum Health levels were all somewhere between 900 and 999)...


--Jay

[Ameena]

Yeah, stone giants/golems are the toughest monsters in the game, being highly resistant to basically every damage type (and probably immune to the rest, eg poison). Fortunately you can mostly avoid them, depending on where you're trying to go.
Have you read the game's backstory, found in the manual? Level Seven, the one with the Ra doors and the stone giants, is the Grey Lord's lab, so some of his stuff is lying around, including some of his notes and stuff.
It sounds like you may not yet have all you need to fully progress on this level, so probably a case of coming back later. If you find the Winged Key, that will be obvious, because, you know, it has the Ir symbol and all that. The key for the fancy-looking black lock is unique and highly important so you'll likely know that when you see it, too.

[John Gregory]

I haven't a good idea how to proceed aside from trying again. After dispatching another two crabs (I don't see them as spiders) and two more knights, I ended up surrounded by crabs and mollusks with no possibility of escape.

This was my first combat death. I found it not only discouraging but unsure what I did wrong or what I could do better. I also failed to save so lost a good deal of experience. My only other death was early on - a fall into a hole.

I'm not looking for solutions. I'll take it easy and try again this time saving sooner.

Oh, I did remember that I'd not fully explored the square maze where the stone golems run so returned there to find the missing key [master]. I also got what I take to be a preview of Things to Come. Between the line of fire pits I tried exploring but was driven back and being surrounded by crabs backed by mollusks, I'm unsure if I can make any further progress.

Perhaps me doing a squishy Tiggy solo was overreaching although I can't see how four Tiggys would have gotten out of the fix that finally killed me.

[Simon]

I only did a Tiggy solo after I'd beat the game a few times and wanted a bit more of a challenge. It wasn't easy! I also did a Stamm solo win as well.

I just love fireballs.

[Paul Stevens]

This business with people claiming that Tiggy is the worst choice
of champion reminds me of the "Worst Champion" contest.

If you claim that Tiggy is worst, I will prove that Stamm is worse by having
a Dungeon Master "Race to Fusion" contest. I will demonstrate
that Tiggy can play through the game faster than Stamm by playing
a timed game with solo Tiggy. It will then be up to you to show that Stamm
is actually faster than Tiggy. I, of course, will reply with a better Tiggy
effort to demonstrate that Tiggy is faster than Stamm. Etc.
The entire argument should be settled within a few years of
dedicated gameplay! A decade at most. Then someone else will
come along and claim that Halk is the worst and the race is on again.

We would have to establish some rules about reincarnation, save/reload, etc.

[jayrshaw]

John Gregory: I think you should be able to make it through the rest of the game if you managed to get as far as you have. I'm having a bit of difficulty figuring out which specific area within Floor 11 you were surrounded and killed in - there is a room with a large number of Oitu (the spider/crab-type enemies you described in your post) near the end of the Floor, but there are not really a large number of Materializers (the mollusk-type enemies you described) in the same immediate vicinity of this room [unless you got unlucky and they wandered in from an adjacent area where they can generate].


--Jay

[Ameena]

Wow, you only died twice so far? Sounds like you're doing pretty well .
I'm not sure how spell vines look anything like any kind of mollusc considering they are floating ghostly orb things with viney-tentacle things hanging down. And the giant spiders at least look more spider-like then crab-like. Okay so they aren't really either because they have four legs that merge at the feet, but at least their leg total is closer to that of a spider than a crab .
Anyway yeah, Level Twelve is a pain - spell vines blasting you from a mile down the corridor, spiders biting you on the bum, knights marching up and being all sword-swingy. There is a spot at a specific corner that monsters can't pass (but there's nothing about said corner which would indicate this unless you notice monsters don't follow you around it), which can be very handy for killing stuff, so there's that.
Regarding the Master Key, yes with a name like that, it's clearly important. You can find it

Spoiler

right near the end of Level Twelve, in an alcove near the stairs.

[John Gregory]

Spell Vines...that's what I've been calling mollusks because my first take was a floating octopus. I can't say where I got overwhelmed because as things started to fall apart for me, I did my panic run away that has not only served me well as an escape but also has had me discover items or places I likely never would have. My speed boots are a prime example of finding a place I would have likely overlooked. As it worked out, I found two other pairs along the way.

I don't think I'm doing especially well not to have died in combat but once. It's more a matter of me assuring myself of an escape path and taking it as soon as my health bar got low. At least twice I was trapped but both times luck had me with one weakened foe so I could dispatch the weak foe and escape through that opening.

I had a long, difficult battle with what I take is (now was) the dragon in a passageway down one level. Putting it together afterward, I opened a door to the room where the dragon lived and then walked away. I had no idea that was a dragon room. Instead, I figured it was another big room like the level below the fire staff. I decided to explore it later on. I saw no reason to close the door.

Due to this, the dragon occupied the passage that the door connected to necessitating an often desperate fight in that passage. I'm curious to learn if the dragon is/was susceptible to fireballs. It didn't seem so. After a long fight and loaded down with Porterhouse style steaks, I then got to explore the large room.

[jayrshaw]

Hi again John Gregory,

Great job taking out the Dragon - according to the Technical Documentation on the Dungeon Master Encyclopaedia, the Dragon is supposedly not totally immune to Fireballs but does have very high resistance to them. The easiest way to take him out is to use several Green Magical Boxes on him and then repeatedly attack him with Poison Cloud spells and Ven Bombs. I ended up having to run through the Dragon Floor of the dungeon several times from the beginning to document the differences between the last part of the game in the SNES version of the game and standard PC version of the game, and I found that it is also extraordinarily easy to simply run past the Dragon, perform the tasks you need to on the floor, and exit the floor without risking being attacked.....


--Jay

[Ameena]

Oh cool, the Dragon is actually a fight I enjoy because he's so easy. At least, because I fight him in his room - can easily do the step dance and alternate between stabbing him and...using an item you haven't got yet. If he ends up in the corridor I can either do the "run downstairs, stab, run back up again" thing, or just leave it a while and hope he goes away, then leg it down. But usually it's fine. His room is big enough that it's easy enough to get around him in order to search for stuff, but he is fairly fast and can see really far, so if you're in his lair and don't know where he is, you have to keep an eye out or risk suddenly getting a Fireball in the back of the head . Or at least you would, if you hadn't killed him already. Dragon steaks are also the best food in the game...although by the time I've killed him I'm still working through my Screamer slices from like, Level Four, so tend to just leave them where they fall .

[jayrshaw]

Hi again John Gregory,

Just writing to see if you ever finished your playthrough of Dungeon Master - it's been about a week since your last post.....


--Jay

[John Gregory]

Hi All

Sorry for my absence and lack of response. I'm considering replaying the game with, if not a team, at least a team member such as Jay's avatar. I think the combination of such a fighter is worthwhile. He'll (she'll?) need a good deal of training in the magic area just as Tiggy did in fighting.

Tiggy did end up a Master fighter. If I had to do it again, I'd surely wish to fight the dragon in the large room so I could step about. I have to wonder if Tiggy fought the dragon as a ninja if she's have achieved Master there too.

I enter the hospital tomorrow for some surgery that should have me fully mobile again thus cutting down on my try at ancient gaming. I'm surprised at how involved I felt with this game that's now, AFAIK, 35 years old. It gave me a great gift, as did the members of this board, passing the time I had on hand after I read enough to tire my eyes. It was an exciting time in the dungeon with many incidences of exhilaration at having defeated a particularly troublesome foe. The ghost armor suits gave me, perhaps, the most satisfaction in victory.

I got so personally involved with these foes that I took it upon myself to throw all their parts around as my act of defiance toward their remains. It was another lucky break I did since I found an important key for having done so. It's these types of bizarre out of the blue incidents that lent so much spice to my gameplay. It was also a measure of my emotional involvement with the game that I took enjoyment in scattering the parts of a defeated foe after killing it.

For all that, I have a bit of an anti-climax to report. I did not succeed in capturing the Chaotic guy so I could fuse him. After several grueling days, I learned enough about his lair to defeat the fire throwing mutant gorillas and had mapped the place in my mind sufficiently to get a sense of things. However, I could never get the cage cast. I hit upon a strategy to only try when one side of him was against a wall so as to only need a 3 sided cage but that was difficult to position. The two times I had that setup, I still failed. I had run out of green boxes so wasn't able to freeze him - the only strategy I can see working.

I'm not at all frustrated by this lack of a closed out end game. The gameplay gave me many hours of distraction from my situation which is exactly what I was seeking. School has restarted and I'm not there (as a teacher). That too is a howling frustration.

I'll check back here when I'm able to. I want to thank all for a warm welcome and not only for the help afforded, but for the tone of this board. All of you were greatly appreciated.