Best champions - an analytical approach

[Hackfix]

Hi all,

Last week I had a brainwave - I wonder if it's possible to play Dungeon Master these days. It was the third game I ever bought for our Atari ST as a kid (after Flight Simulator 2 and Elite). So I found this forum! I have a Mac but had no luck trying to get the Mac version running that's available on Gamesnostalgia. Fortunately downloading the PC version and running it with Boxer worked like a charm. So happily reliving my childhood days and getting going with this game again - still as good as it was back then.

The first question is obviously which champions to pick. I read about running with two rather than four champions on this forum to get experience faster, would never have occurred to me back then - but which ones? On this forum the discussion on that topic seems to be mostly "I liked these and it worked for me" - I thought I'd try to come up with a somewhat more objective approach.

I focused my comparison on stamina, strength, dexterity and wisdom.

Strength, dexterity and wisdom are obviously important because they are the main stats impacting combat and magic use, and these stats don't increase hugely with skill levels, so trying to get high starting values of these attributes matters.

I disregarded vitality, anti magic and anti poison - those seem to be less relevant as long as you avoid getting hit a lot!

I also ignored health and mana because future increases in those stats are not affected by the starting value, and since these stats will increase quickly many times over, that means that even a big starting health difference between Daroo's value of 100 and a character that has a more average value of, say, 60 turns into a pretty negligible difference once you've achieved the first 20 or so skill level increases (easily done by dungeon level 4), when the difference might be only 300 vs 260. Same for mana.

Stamina increases, however (thanks for the useful info on this forum!), do seem to be impacted by the starting stamina value, so low starting stamina would amplify into low stamina all throughout the game. And stamina generally seems to be important to be able to move quickly to avoid monsters.

Next I sorted all the champions by first filtering out those that had stamina values below 55; or strength, dexterity or wisdom values below 39 (noting that a 39 starting value can easily get to at least 40 through reincarnation - I considered 40 my minimum requirement); then ranking the remaining ones by highest average of strength, dexterity and wisdom.

As a result I was left with the following top 5 of champions who all had an average of strength/ dexterity/ wisdom of at least 46:
- Alex
- Iaido
- Sonja
- Leyla
- Azizi

I think this result is quite interesting since for the most part these are not names that came up a lot in other threads where folks discuss their favourite champions!

The final selection was a bit of a judgement call, and I ended up with Sonja and Azizi.

I'm currently on the fourth dungeon level, and very happy with this choice. They have enough carrying capacity, their starting stats were sufficiently similar that even after 20+ skill level upgrades, they are pretty closely matched (meaning that I don't have to worry about one character being close to death while the other is still fine), and even though neither had high starting mana (Sonia starting with only 2), that's not holding the party back since both characters are already at 70+ mana now.

Thanks very much to everyone who's keeping this game going!

Best regards, Erich

[Ameena]

Heya, welcome to the forum . I can't say I've ever bothered to analyse the characters in any great detail myself since they can all do a decent job, so I go more by the portrait than anything else. Skills don't matter since I reincarnate (and you end up with better stats that way anyway), but I do like both my characters to have enough mana to at least cast one spell. I take reincarnated Hissssa and Wuuf (both renamed, of course) when I play, and import them into CSB once I'm done with DM. I use CSBWin, which is a port of the Atari version (which is the one I used to play back in the day).
I do remember back when I used to play it on the Atari I used to take Hawk and Hissssa a lot for some reason (used to resurrect back then, don't think I really knew how reincarnation worked or something...but I was like six at the time ), and I can remember taking Azizi at least once because when I completed the game with that team she was in my second slot and she was dead at the time .
It's cool how this game is over thirty years old now and people are still finding stuff to do with it.

[jayrshaw]

Hi Erich,

While I generally agree with most aspects of the approach you used for deciding which Champions to use, you excluded a lot of Champions with high average Strength / Dexterity / Wisdom by deciding not to consider any who have a starting value of less than 40 in any of these three stats. In particular, you excluded almost all of the Champions with the highest Strength values (which I generally consider to be by far the most useful of the main character stats).

Regardless, the Sonja / Azizi team you ended up going with is a really good one - let us know how your playthrough goes!


--Jay

[Hackfix]

Thanks, having a lot of fun with it. Sure brings back the memories from when I was 13 or so. Back then a mummy screeching was actually really scary... but even so I don't feel the graphics have aged that much.

I think back then I gave up somewhere around level 8 or so...

Sure helps to have play throughs available online these days. Great fun to play through this, but between jobs and family and all that there just isn't the luxury to spend hours searching for hidden walls, drawing maps, etc.

[jayrshaw]

Yeah - I find myself having similar problems these days (haven't actually managed to play a video game in over a year now)....


--Jay

[Hackfix]

I've reached level 10 at this point and all good fun. This is such a good game.

I'm amusing myself by having established a real "home room" in that room with a fountain right in the middle of level 8, close to the rat generator room. I'm dropping off all the items I'm not keeping in that room, neatly stacked by type. The only thing missing is some actual cupboards. At the end of every play session I return there to save (very handy, these staircases that can be unlocked by skeleton keys, to quickly get back there from the lower levels). And the dungeon master isn't even charging any rent!

[Ameena]

Oh yeah, the fountain room near the Rat Room is a pretty common "safe spot" for most people, I think, being how it's got easy access to water, food, and the Central Stairwell.

[jayrshaw]

During my playthroughs of this game, I end up hoarding a ton of stuff on the Worm level of the dungeon between the Screamer Room and the stairwell down to the next level of the dungeon. I have often stored so many items in various areas within this section of the dungeon that the game actually loads more slowly than normal when my group passes through them!


--Jay

[Ameena]

I think the last couple of times I've played, I've finally realised that since I use so few of the items, I can just <gasp> not bother looting them in the first place, so actually I no longer end up with a big loot pile by the Level Nine stairwell .

[jayrshaw]

Yeah - the next time I play through this game, I should probably consider whether I actually need to hoard so much stuff, myself (or carry as much as I normally do in my characters' inventories).....


--Jay

[Ameena]

Of course, on my last playthrough, leaving behind the junk I never use/equip did mean I left behind something like the bow and then had to go back for it once I reached the Riddle Room on Level Six and realised I was missing something...okay I know you don't have to solve all the riddles (or at least I don't think you do? You just get a bonus, non-essential key), but I like to anyway .

[Hackfix]

Well, amazingly I finished the game! Never got to the end as a child... Very cool. Although I thought at the end you were supposed to get some wise/ grateful words from the big wizard. Instead a pretty dodgy animated end sequence. I guess that's because it's the PC version.

I'm sorry to leave all the stuff I accumulated behind.

On to CSB I suppose, that'll be a totally new experience!

Thanks everyone who contributed to keeping this game alive.

[Paul Stevens]

On to CSB I suppose, that'll be a totally new experience!

Yes.

[jayrshaw]

Congratulations on getting through the game this time around, Hackfix! I finally managed to complete the game for the first time myself during 2020.

The ending in the SNES version of the game isn't bad - the ending sequence shows maps of the various floors of the dungeon rotating in the background with the various creatures you encounter in the dungeon in the foreground (e.g., it might show a map of Floor 12 of the dungeon rotating in the background with Lord Chaos and a Demon in the foreground in the upper-left and lower-right corners of the screen).


--Jay

[ChristopheF]

You may watch the ending of the SNES version, along with other videos, here: https://www.youtube.com/user/DungeonMasterGames/videos

[Hackfix]

Nice!

[jayrshaw]

Yes; definitely cool to see that all of those Dungeon Master videos have been uploaded onto YouTube - thanks for posting the link, ChristopheF!


--Jay

[aster]

Hi all,

Last week I had a brainwave - I wonder if it's possible to play Dungeon Master these days. It was the third game I ever bought for our Atari ST as a kid (after Flight Simulator 2 and Elite).
...
I have a Mac but had no luck trying to get the Mac version running that's available on Gamesnostalgia. Fortunately downloading the PC version and running it with Boxer worked like a charm.oid getting hit a lot!
...
- Alex

My first flirtation with Dungeon Master was via a demo attached to a computer mag that had the first 1-2 levels on it. And it was literally love at first sight. To this day I'd say it's the #1 game I can recall ever playing, just so perfect and complete in every way.

Since you mentioned Elite I have to say that you *might* have missed out on one of the other great games of back then... and VERY similar to Elite... and ALSO made by FTL (!!!)... called Sundog: Frozen Legacy. Not only can you fly your ship between planets and cities, but you can also wander around the citiy on foot (or stay in a hotel, drink at a bar, etc.) or move between cities on the same planet. Check it out, Atari ST version only for the good graphics.

As for playing DM on the MAC, are you able to do so on the newest OS?

In terms of characters in DM, I always go for Alex for the reasons you mentioned as he has the highest combo of the key stats. He is like the universal choice if you want everything in one character.

Then again I also do so because I like playing the game with just one character, occasionally with 2, and never with 3-4. Anyone else here do the same? So as mentioned, the key stats are important when you're just limiting yourself to 1-2 characters.

[Hackfix]

I had never heard of that. I thought I was pretty up to speed on Atari games! Looks pretty interesting. Also reminds me of the modern game FTL! Coincidence?

[aster]

Yeah, that FTL game is a knock-off, at least from a design/marketing perspective to make it look like it's got something to do with the real FTL and/or Sundog.

I love Elite (one of the greatest games ever) and was even a Kickstarter backer of Elite: Dangerous (should be a planet and space station named after me), but Sundog: Frozen Legacy was way ahead of its time and offered so much more than "never leave your ship" (unless in an escape pod!) classic Elite. I mean wandering around your ship, the city, the planet, interactions with others.

Getting back to DM I'm keen on giving it another full go, this time adding Leyla (very good mix of str/dex/wis which are key) to Alex for a 2-party configuration. Now if only I can get it running on either a Mac or a Chromebook then I'm good to go...

[Thorham]

Arguably the best characters are the ones with the highest wisdom, like Chani, but it probably doesn't matter once you start stacking wisdom potions. Did a little test with just reincarnated Chani to see how overpowered you can become before level 3 while only using screamer slices as food for training:

Code: Select all

Apprentice Fighter
Apprentice Ninja
Adapt Priest
Adapt Wizard

Health: 209
Stamina: 181
Mana: 127

Strength: 86/46
Dexterity: 58/58
Wisdom: 133/72
Vitality: 46/46

At this point you can probably keep both wisdom and strength boosted permanently because of the mana regen from wisdom, and I wouldn't be surprised if you could pull this off with Halk or other characters with low wisdom.

[jayrshaw]

The degradation of buffed stats becomes much faster once you buff a character's stat to a level which is more than twice the character's natural level for that stat - this is one of the main factors which will determine how high you can buff a character's stats without having to rebuff very frequently.

Regardless, any character can attain high enough base Wisdom to easily maintain Dane potion Wisdom buffs allowing them to experience maximum mana recovery [subject to their Maximum Mana level, which is also a factor] - it is a good idea to make sure you are gaining 2 Wisdom each time you gain a Wizard level and 1 Wisdom each time you gain a Healer level, though.


--Jay

[Thorham]

The degradation of buffed stats becomes much faster once you buff a character's stat to a level which is more than twice the character's natural level for that stat - this is one of the main factors which will determine how high you can buff a character's stats without having to rebuff very frequently.

That's very interesting, thanks. Does it become worse the more times you're over the base stat value?

it is a good idea to make sure you are gaining 2 Wisdom each time you gain a Wizard level and 1 Wisdom each time you gain a Healer level, though

I'm using a version of the game with fixed stat increases based on the averages you'd get randomly.

[jayrshaw]

As far as I know, the only major change in degradation of buffed stats occurs once you cross the threshold of twice the buffed stat - this is not very exact, but, for example, it might take the same amount of time for the buffed Wisdom of a character with a base Wisdom of 60 to fall from 130 to 120 as it does to fall from 120 to 115. I can't rule out there being further penalties for buffing one of a character's stat far beyond twice its base level, but the character's base stat would have to be pretty low for this ever to become a possibility worth considering during an actual playthrough.

Another thing to consider is that the effect of stat-boosting potions is roughly halved once a character's stat has already been boosted to 120 and is reduced even further once the stat has been boosted to 150. In addition to this, Ku (Strength) potions will generally buff Strength a bit less than Dane (Wisdom), Ros (Dexterity), and Neta (Vitality) potions buff their respective stats....


--Jay

[Thorham]

To jayrshaw: Very interesting info, thanks Perhaps the characters with the average stats are the best then.

[jayrshaw]

At this point (primarily due to the effectiveness of buffs in this game), I'm essentially of the opinion that it doesn't make a terribly big difference which Champions you use if you know a lot about the game's mechanics, intend to train your characters in all of their Skills to a reasonably high level (e.g., Lo Master), and expect to maximize your characters' stat gains each time they gain a level. However, if you are interested in attaining higher Maximum Stamina levels, it is generally to your benefit to choose Champions who start out with relatively high Maximum Stamina values, though, since a character's Maximum Stamina gains at level-up are based on the character's current Maximum Stamina value.

If you aren't planning to maximize your characters' stat gains when they gain levels, I tend to agree with what you just said. I would generally recommend focusing on characters whose buffable stats (particularly Wisdom and Strength) are reasonably high and who also have relatively high starting Maximum Stamina values. Keeping all four buffs up is nice, but if I had to prioritize them, I would say Wisdom is most important, followed by Strength, Dexterity, and Vitality (in that order).


--Jay

[Thorham]

I'm essentially of the opinion that it doesn't make a terribly big difference which Champions you use if you know a lot about the game's mechanics

Indeed. All this is just about min maxing, which doesn't seem terribly useful in this game.

Keeping all four buffs up is nice

Does that work? Seems you need a rather big mana pool for the regen rate that way. Wouldn't it be more practical to just buff wisdom so you can also buff strength and have enough mana for spells?

[jayrshaw]

During my last playthrough, I was generally keeping my four characters' Wisdom, Strength, Dexterity, and Vitality buffed in the range of ~140 to ~155 throughout the playthrough after I finished training them in the Screamer Room on the Worm floor of the dungeon. However, my characters had attained relatively high Wizard and Healer levels [Level 5 / PAL Master in both] and Maximum Mana levels of at least 320 points each when I was doing this.

If your mana pools aren't high enough to support buffing all of the buffable stats to the level I just described, I would just layer the buffs until each stat reaches 120+ and then refresh the buffs when the stats begin falling into the ~100 to ~110 range. This should be far easier to maintain because buff potions are much more effective if the stat you are buffing is below 120....


--Jay

[jayrshaw]

I should also mention that there is little benefit to buffing your Wisdom to very high levels because you will experience maximum mana recovery [given your current Maximum Mana level] once your Wisdom + Wizard Level + Healer Level exceeds a value of 112.....


--Jay

[Ian Clark]

I have always maintained that Hissssa is the best champion. Of course, that's based on my personal opinion.

Anyway, back in the day I used to save the game regularly when training then reload after the level went up for (possibly) better stats. You can roughly predict when a level is about to increase, particularly with the lower levels (i.e. if it takes 20 swings of a sword to go up to Neophyte, it will take around 40 to reach Novice).