Dungeon Masters... again

[boyflea]

anyone seen this?

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/dungeon ... 08538?mt=8
[am thinking it may not be up long...]



and yes, there is a sequel as well,
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/return- ... 75526?mt=8


so they've managed to process map-data, but judging by reviews it does not work properly yet...
I want to get it, but want to know it'll be supported and fixed and not taken down,

[Lord_BoNes]

It looks like it's basically DM Java ported to the iPhone with SOME new graphics (alot of the in-game graphics look like they're right out of DMJ)
And even if it gets taken down... get in 1st! At least that way you'll have a copy... whether it works properly or not (look at RTC for an example of something that's still floating around, without any active support)

Still looks good for an iPhone game though!

[Sophia]

I've split this topic as it was originally in a thread about a game unrelated to this one. The rather underwhelmed thread title is my doing.

I am rather underwhelmed because this is the second time this project has appeared. The first time, it was pulled because it contained graphics taken from DM Java and used without permission. They seem to have changed the wallset and such this time, but I have no confidence that the graphics aren't just lifted from somewhere else. Not exactly a professional effort-- the front doors don't even align right.

It also amuses me that they chose to "borrow" the title of a popular DM clone for their own project, "Return to Chaos."

I must disagree with Bones. Don't give these people money.

[Gambit37]

Holy ****, talk about brazen. I guess the developers thought "We'll wait a bit for all the heat to die down about the last one, then just release it again. No-one will notice."

See here for previous case, by the same developers:

http://dungeon-master.com/forum/viewtop ... 27&t=29526

I've notified Cows again....!

[Sophia]

I'm not sure if Cows will have any standing to do anything this time. Like I said, they might have decided to yoink graphics from someone who was less likely to notice.

(I also noticed how the person didn't make a post announcing it here, this time. )

[Gambit37]

Well, there's still clearly interface graphics from DM Java used in their iPad version, so they're still trying to flog stuff they have no rights to. Including the dungeon doors that have had a bit of a paint over, but are still basically an FTL asset.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Steve Bovis has something to do with this.

[Lord_BoNes]

The only reason I suggested it was because it might get yoinked
I didn't realize that this was a repeat offence

But, it would seem apparent from the conversation that it's NOT worth the money, because they're simply people who try to rip off other people's work. I'm not against the idea of releasing a project (even in some cases, a commercial project) which has a dungeon that "comes with it" (like DSB & RTC, for instance... that come complete with FTL graphics) that uses assets from other people... but, there seems to be no effort to even say "we got the graphics from somewheres, not sure who or where, but they're not ours"... but instead, they just try to pawn it off as thiers... not happy

[Ameena]

Haha Gambit - I think I referenced Limbo of the Lost last time this happened as well . Hopefully these buggers'll have "their" game taken down (again) and will eventually get bored of trying to steal other people's work and either give up or actually bother creating something themselves and selling that instead .

[boyflea]

Okay dudes, I have bought both. Despite the issue with assets I do think this should be supported.

BUT.

First off, Chaos crashes out on saving, so don;t buy.
Secondly, the business case for charging £1.59 / episode is counter-productive.

What these guys have done is convert the engine to run on iOS (well, unreliably - it's BETA at best)
Now that is work.

And by releasing Chaos, he shows that the engine can grab alternate maps and work.
So what if this community were to get behind it as it could be a way of getting custom maps to market.

I would then recommend that the developer switch to a free app with in-app purchases, eg new maps.


Looking at the files themselves, the assets are mainly png format with a sprite sheet in .pvr format (whatever that is)
Would argue this:

For all the offending artwork, if the developer were to provide the artwork assets and the community worked to replace then it would be an endorsed product. If the original DM team were also to grant fair use of their game then great.

Even if the app had to be re-branded, it could be done and still keep the same AppID.


There is a heap of stuff wrong with this app, but it's not totally awful. If it has been done without permission then we should look to not just have it removed but perhaps work together with the developer and remarket this.

Getting Apple approval is a big step, and surprising to me that this made it through (their QA has relaxed a bit obviously).


The developer is talented but really is not a business man or good at making friends or one to test the app properly. However, I am an ideallist and optimist - I love DM and if this could make the succesful leap to mobile that would be a huge win: but not just for one person to profit from it of course.


Anyway, I've already put £3 in the pot, so as a shareholder I have rights!

DAVE

[beowuuf]

I'm still a little behind. The original app was a reworked DMJ, with DMJ assets, etc. Is this new one still that, or is it a rework of Return to Chaos? Or are they just using the Chaos name for selling it?


No one except the original copyright holders can profit from DM. We cannot ask the engine people to share the profits wwith artists here and then it then be alright. What that leads to is every custom dungeon and webiste, potentially, being asked to cease and desist. Even if we do nothing, and only this app person were ever pursued, legally everything questionable might need to get a cease and desist in order for any legal proceedings to not leave themselves open to accusations of disparity in dealing with their copyrighted material.


This community is too small to endorse anything, and certainly I do not think we should individually support anything that has gone this way about making anything. People like petri who have shared their enthusiasm off and on for 10 years and created something independent and yet faithful deserve that sort of support.

It sounds as if they achieved something interesting with some coding stuff - they should carry on and make a full engine on their efforts, and not short cut by taking as many other assets as possible. WE d9h[t have to meet then half way or any way or support them. After all, if they can't do it by themselves legally and respectfully, what sort of future does the app have anyway?

[Sophia]

I personally have no interest in "working with" this developer in any form. I suspect others here, including those whose assets have been taken, feel similarly.

While it may seem somewhat hypocritical for us to complain about their use of assets-- given the nature of DM's assets-- projects like DSB, CSBwin, and RTC are done by developers who love DM and want to expand upon it. These guys are trying to make money. It's obvious they don't care, because, if they did, they wouldn't have released something that didn't even work.

[Lord_BoNes]

Amen! Amen to the pair of you!
<insert crowd cheering>

[boyflea]

Seems like I've joined this party late.
Ok, this app is lousy, but the engine is a good idea. without core support from the target community it won't go far anyway, and have now downloaded dungeon of the damned, which is far slicker.
One day, there will be a way to create an online community that can share user-content on a mobile platform.

to salvage the current app would require a strip-out of assets and rebrand. there are nods to 3rd party renderers within the resources as well, so more and more this app is relying on other people's work. app design itself completely fails to offer a simple menu that could credit original users. and yes, this should be for free. all of it.

still willing to look deeper into this with the dev - i'm not sure they don't care, seems like a pet project that's gotten away from them, even upsetting others they've wanted to impress in the first place. There are several version increments but with no real progress, so perhaps I am wrong and they are just looking for ways to get it to market to make money. Lord Bones owes me £3.

[beowuuf]

Well the idea of somehting as simple as DM on a mobile platform where more people can enjoy it is a good idea. However I think for the moment it sounds like it needs a dedicated effort to create. One that needs compensated at the end of the day. Which is at odds with doing anything with DM as a property.

Perhaps it's better to wait until the mobile devices get more advanced until its far easier to use existing programmes on them, with features that take advantage of touch screen/swipe actually available externally to use with such programmes.

Who knows!

[Gambit37]

I can't fathom why people try to make money with existing IP that they don't own. It's such a stupid proposition.

[Lord_BoNes]

@boyflea: I didn't mean to MAKE you buy it... as I stated above, I wasn't aware that this project has surfaced before, and it didn't go down well. The only reason I said "get in 1st! At least that way you'll have a copy" was because I have an iPhone myself, and there have been a few apps/games that didn't work properly when I purchased them... but with patience, the apps blossomed into something great, worth more than the money I paid. There have been numerous apps that I've even gotten for free, and then a week later I see it selling at $5 AUS, or more.
I didn't mean to give you potentially bad advice

[boyflea]

don't worry, 'buyer beware!' as they say - and anyway I brought it to your attention. for historic value, would recommend iphone users grab a copy of DM - otherwise avoid.
will try to convince dev to take down nicely, go away, fix issues, replace assets and come back.

Am looking at DMjava and the like - Android would be the better fit for a Java conversion for mobile versions.
Wow, I am so narrow-sighted that I really didn't realise how many fan-made versions of DM exist.

FYI - the two apps both contain the same file structure, and contain DM.DAT, CSB.DAT and something called EYE.DAT - so for them to sell DM and CSB seperately is misleading
Hope it prompts them to clean-up their act.

http://www.facebook.com/SupeEntertainment
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zbbmlz5ffez9j ... s_003.xlsx

PS: 15 apps delivered as project manager since 2006, + 2 years QA manager for mobile before that.
If it can be done right, then let's support it. Otherwise let's take it down. issupe, talk to me.

[Sophia]

I have no idea of their true intentions, of course, but the fact that they had an app taken down for stolen IP and then put another dubious app back up so soon-- with many of the same problems-- suggests to me that they don't really have any intention of "doing it right."

[Bit]

I'm tempted to suggest all open source - people to spread in some evil 'hard to find bugs' - like memory leaks, dead pointers etc. into the source.
Those who really care for the project will know them and continue developing with the 'cheat' to bypass the bugs.

Still, even this makes no sense if Sophia is right and they don't even care for it just to make some bucks however.

[boyflea]

All of this got me thinking about all the other games out there that stand on the shoulders of giants: paid-for apps that get traffic due to their implied history and community support:

Some examples:
DOOMSDAY 1,2,3 etc (Doom)
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/doomsda ... 14130?mt=8
Does recognise origins and has online credits page and links.

APOC-X (Alien Breed)
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/apoc-x/id578650066?mt=8
Paid-for ‘homage’ with obvious roots but no credits mentioned. Arguable that this is IP trespass, but to be fair was available before Alien Breed was made to mobile by Team 17 – cynical person would note that in SEO it will pick up on a search for ‘Alien Breed’ and show this title.

Hunters 1+2 (Laser Squad)
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/hunters ... 63556?mt=8
Recognisable as version of Laser Squad, but different enough not to require mention.

Chaos - The Battle of Wizards (Chaos)
https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... 9zLmFwcCJd
Absolute port, but lovingly done and all credit given to original creator throughout.

DM Clones
Undercroft
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/undercr ... 44935?mt=8
Beautiful little game, with thoughtful design and some great nods to Dungeon Master (says things like ‘ful bro neta’ during loading for example) – and presently free, so worth a look.
Dungeon of the Damned
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/dungeon ... 41681?mt=8
This one you know about – nice game, respects its origins too

Dungeon Masters
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/dungeon ... 08538?mt=8
A-Boo! Ok, calm down. This app is not free, fails to refer to any resources, delivers a shoddy experience with fiddly controls. In itself it is not doing things that have not been done by other fans before, but there is a question about their perceived mercenary approach and lack of apparent respect to the original and the community.
Ok, so for a casual fan, he will buy it, feel ripped off and not come back. For the die-hard fan, again there is a sense of a missed opportunity, even anger that SUPE, LLC seem to position themselves as originator of this app, taking both credit and money for this creation.
SUPE, LLC will make some money from this short-term and then disappear unless something changes – the business case here just does not stack-up. Even if we did nothing, and let’s be honest there is not much we can do, the apparent disregard for feedback will doom the enterprise.
Personally, would see this app as a historical curiosity and acknowledge that SUPE, LLC are just playing the system to earn a fast buck before disappearing again.

Alternatives like kickstarters, where the original developer get back in the game, are also proving more popular.
Lords of Midnight (Mike Singleton, rip)
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/the-lor ... 44181?mt=8
Great to see, you don’t mind paying for it, and thanks to this – Midwinter is being planned.
When this was launched, the third-party versions were cleansed from the app-store. This itself does highlight that the original people know when fan-versions are just that, and those that are trading off of their name for personal profit and act accordingly.
Others ‘doing the Stallone’ and reliving the 80s:
Julian Gollop – Chaos is coming back!
http://www.gollopgames.com/
David Braben – Elite!
http://elite.frontier.co.uk/
And others… maybe one day even Doug Bell.

Anyway, for me I am enjoying the app for what it is, but won’t be giving those guys any more money. I would not worry too much about sabotaging them – the app is unstable and the support from the community is divided at best. Those who want more details about the app itself can contact me direct if they like – and for the record, no I’ve nothing to do with these shadowy characters at SUPE.

[ebeneezergude]

I think this is all very wrong. I wouldn't try it "for what it is". How do these supe guys sleep at night?

[beowuuf]

Might be best if you don't share any of their things. Hard to take the high ground about them taking assets if they can point to their assets being shared in return.

[zoom]

Well, what can I say? It was maybe just a matter of time for this "in almost all parts disdainful thing" to happen.

Back then all Game creators (I suspect) had a tendency to copy from one another.. DM got copied by EotB and so on.. same in art? maybe that is what people do and how things evolve.
Taking other´s IP(intellectual property) is inacceptable, yet it happens..
sometimes I feel like all this is only possible because of the reverse engineering -(with good intent) and also making that more accessible maybe by DSB (with good intent).
And having the encyclopedia around (with very bad intent indeed- no just kidding, with good intent) to see all neatly in one place..

If you believe them, they wanted a DM version on ios so badly for so long that they just did it, which in turn meant high expenses and hard, ongoing work for porting "it"- which they now want to please pay off on the second try.
so really only FTL is to blame because they did not make more sequels and did not do an ios port themselves, no ? well probably not quite. Of course this app is not rational

[Lord_BoNes]

DM Clones
Undercroft
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/undercr ... 44935?mt=8
Beautiful little game, with thoughtful design and some great nods to Dungeon Master (says things like ‘ful bro neta’ during loading for example) – and presently free, so worth a look.

Now THAT is an awesome find. I downloaded it and it's quite a good game.

It's a 100% turn-based game, where the enemies won't make a move until the entire party's made thier moves. But, I find that quite handy if you have to put the phone down quickly (I've got an 11m old son, that's learning to walk).

Spellcasting doesn't use runes ... it's more like "Diablo" (where you select a spell/skill and blast away, and you have a class-based skill tree). Combined with the fact it's turn-based, this works out quite well because you can take as long as you need to select whatever spell/skill you wanna rip the enemy to bits with.
I found the "Summoner" class to be very effective at raising an undead army... your minions are an invisible part of the party (it's basically creating extra party members, that tear things to bits for you) and you have little icons representing them and thier hp... then you get an extra attack each turn that represents all your minions attacking at once... CHOMP!

The item interface takes a little getting used to, but I find that it works quite well, once you get used to it (you have to stand on the tile containing said items, and then tap the floor to bring up a "ground to inventory" screen... this is also how you drop items). Trading uses a very similar screen.

Combats can get quite interesting, even when the enemy is just standing there waiting to get slapped around... it's a very Eye of the Beholder feel. The entire game has a sorta EoB feel to it... but I didn't mind EoB, so it's all good.

And then you add on top of all this, it's COMPLETELY FREE (you just look it up in the iTunes AppStore, and download it)... AWESOME!

[ebeneezergude]

.. DM got copied by EotB and so on..

.... Is not the same as dungeon masters ripping off DM

[beowuuf]

Knightmare is a far closer copy of DM, but in the commerically acceptable way. That's the really annoying thing - there are legally and 'morally' acceptable ways of creating a sellable DM clone, one with the functionality that people can get behind. Taking short cuts and using other people's assets that were provided for free as a fan project woill never sit right.


Still, JoCo vs Glee shows how much people love taking short cuts, no matter their available resources and visibility.

[boyflea]

Glad I've brought happiness to someone on this thread - apologies to everyone else if I re-opened an old wound. I am enjoying the DM app, ashamed to say. Even in this mis-managed half-baked remake the original design can still shine through. I've no moral high-ground here but am enjoying the app for what it is and lament it for what it could have been. Cheers dudes.

[PetriH]

I can't believe how lighthearted some of the posts here are about this.

Imagine you made a beautiful painting taking several years of your time. The painting is widely considered to be a masterpiece. Some years later someone steal your painting, smudges over it badly, removes your signature and replaces it with his own. Not only that but then that guy SELLS your mutilated work of love as his own creation without giving you any credit or shares of sales.

The graphics, sounds, level designs, monster designs etc. are intellectual property of creators of Dungeon Master. The app steals all of these from DM. Copyrightwise and morally it couldn't get any worse. The app should be removed from appstore and the people responsible should apologize to Doug Bell et al and everybody who bought the game and pay back the money.

Please stop endorsing this ripoff.

[ebeneezergude]

DM set a precedent for a game typology. Eotb, knightmare, etc, continue with this typology. There was a first platformer, there was a first first person shooter, there was a first real time strategy. This opens up the discussion about 'what constitutes copying', but that is a separate discussion and whilst interesting I would argue is not particularly relevant here.

There is a clear difference between copying the typology, and copying the intellectual content (as petri so eloquently described above), and worse, passing it off as your own.

I agree with Petri, I really do not agree with any form of endorsement of this ripoff or even entertaining it in any way.

[Gambit37]

@Petri: You should see the other thread where this happened before to get a more realistic impression about how most of us feel about this.

At the end of the day, none of us have the resources to defend copyright claims on behalf of FTL. We can certainly bring attention to incidents of copyright infringement, but as we're not the copyright holders, there is very little that any of us here can do about it.

I personally do not condone the behaviour of these "developers" but I'm realistic about what I can achieve personally to stop it. I emailed Cowsmanaut again (DM Java artist) and I've also emailed Doug Bell. Beyond that, it's up to them how they handle it.