Telefragging the Red Dragon?

[slickrcbd]

Greetings. It's been a long time since I've played Dungeon Master, and even longer since I've visited this forum.

A friend and I were just reminiscing about some old games from when we were kids, and Dungeon Master came up. He was telling me that he once killed the Red Dragon by landing on its back after falling down a pit from the level above.

Does that really work or was he having me on?

Did it work in the Apple IIGS version, or only the PC version? I still have the Apple IIGS version somewhere in storage, but I'd have to take my Apple IIGS out to play it and I don't really have a space to set it up these days.

[Ameena]

I've heard that you can certainly do that, though I've not done it myself - if you fall down a pit onto the square occupied by the Dragon, the game then has both of you (party and Dragon) in the same space, which doesn't work, so it kills the Dragon - apparently you fall down the pit to find yourself in the middle of a dissipating cloud of smoke and standing on a heap of dragon steaks (and the other loot the Dragon drops) .

[Paul Stevens]

It certainly can be done.

I accidentally fell onto the dragon below the
DDD in Chaos Strikes Back, and killed the poor
creature instantly. I suspect it will work in
all versions of DM and CSB (not necessarily in
clones, however).

[Chaos-Shaman]

I think it does work in RTC and it would explain why if a monster has invincible and you land on top of it it crashes. I have run into a heap of troubles with invincibility when party and monster are on the same tile. i had to change my strategy because of this to produce a work around. it appears it's inevitable no matter what engine used.

[slickrcbd]

Thanks, I feel bad that I didn't believe the guy I was talking to. To think 25 years after I first got the game I'm still learning something new!

[hyperbole]Perhaps some day I might learn how to make a FUL Bomb, a spell that uses the GOR symbol, what the hellon necklace does, or what use shields are, especially held in the off-hand.[/hyperbole]

[Sophia]

what use shields are, especially held in the off-hand

http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... 46&t=28401

[Chaos-Shaman]

slick, I never use them much. maybe for it's spell power if it has any. to me, why use a shield when you can just keep out of the way. I have played many dungeons with no clothes 'I never did like clothes and still don't to this day' just to carry more items, it made no difference on how I could beat the game, I just got faster at moving out of the way. the idea was, don't get hit. I could carry more food, more weapons, and never worry so much on the running if I had to. only in those spots where there is no choice do those shields come in handy, but if Sophia is right, the damage it prevents is negligible. having the right item to trigger a door or something I found to be more important. it's up to the player.

naked but not afraid

[slickrcbd]

I found skeletons, wasps, Otis (or whatever the giant spiders were called) and the animated armor generally too quick for that strategy. Most everything else it works on. Although the worms that appear on level 4 at the "this is my prisoner, let him suffer" has the potential for you to get trapped between them and another pair of worms if you retreat too much after using the teleporter shortcut.
Wasps could usually be handled quite easily with a poison cloud if I had one prepared, but skeletons weren't worth running from if I had decent armor. In fact, I used the level where you first meet them to work on ninja levels by tossing all the discarded wooden shields and falcons at the skeletons.

Besides, I found the least frustrating way to beat rockpiles (besides luring them to a closing door, but that cost you valuable training) was to punch them out. As in sheath your weapons, and work on your ninja levels by punching. Having some armor helps greatly. A few spells help too, BUT you generally don't have too many wizard levels on level 3 when you encounter them. Heck, Halk or Stamn generally don't even get to start until you get the Teowand unless you take Nabi and his staff or Chani and her moonstone.
I've actually beaten the game with Halk, Stamn, Sonja, and Leela, as I'm a packrat and their strength actually makes it easier than the weaker, more magically inclined champions.
My favorites are Halk, Stamn, Sonja, Leela, Hissssa, and Darrou. Pick any four and I'm satisfied.

Sorry, digressing and reminiscing. I'm rambling.

Most of what I posted was a bit sarcastic, since I recall from discussions a decade ago that making FUL Bombs was impossible, GOR was unused, and the consensus at the time was that shields were useless in the ready hand, and only good for training against screamers in the action hand with "block" or "hit'. I also heard that The Hellon was useless, despite being on level 13.

I had no idea that somebody had actually found a use for shields, but they've gone from completely useless to mostly useless.

[Seriously Unserious]

they've gone from completely useless to mostly useless.

That's a good one!

I found skeletons, wasps, Otis (or whatever the giant spiders were called) and the animated armor generally too quick for that strategy.

I also find the scorpions way too fast for the hit and run strategy to work on them, and they hit HARD with the nastiest poison in the game on top of all that. IMO next to the Red Dragon, scorpions are the most dangerous monsters in the game. Demons would be except that they rely too heavily on fireballs and a set of good fireshield spells can usually all but neutralize their fireballs (except in RTC which uses a different formula for the fireshelds then in the Amiga/ST versions).

Other areas where the hit and run doesn't work too well for me is on the worm level, where most of the worms re-spawn every time you pass a certain area, so if I do the hit and run on them, I inevitably end up retreating too far and end up triggering a new set by the time I move forward. Great for training your characters, not so good for making some real progress and getting past a level with very little food and no water with a party that's struggling to regenerate their used health, stamina and mana due to starvation/dehydration problems. The scorpions also re-spawn, making already tough monsters even tougher.

Besides, I found the least frustrating way to beat rockpiles (besides luring them to a closing door, but that cost you valuable training) was to punch them out.

Interesting... I never though of that. I usually get intimidated by their poisonous sting and try to fight them from a distance as much as possible. My favorite way of taking care of them has always been to nail 'em with a poison cloud, which is devastating to them as they can't move out of it very fast, to understate it a bit.

Halk, Stamn, Sonja, and Leela

I think I've tried some similar "meathead" parties a couple of times. Usually though I like to have a couple of muscle-heads for the front, and a wizard and priest for the back. The priest to keep a supply of Vi and ViBro potions handy for the fighters and the wizard to nuke anything that's getting too much for the fighters with a fireball, as well as save torches with some handy magic torch spells.

[Thorham]

I also find the scorpions way too fast for the hit and run strategy to work on them, and they hit HARD with the nastiest poison in the game on top of all that.

Just tank them. When you play with just two characters, they become quite strong (as in lots of health) and can tank almost anything that doesn't hurl fireballs at them. Animated armors and death knights can be tanked if you boost dexterity (140+) and use good weapons (or it takes too long). Dexterity increases the characters' hit chance, and decreases their chance of being hit. A good example is the death knights in CSB (Dead End part). Without dexterity boosts my characters became lunch. With the boost those poor knights never stood a chance. One even got single hit killed. Weapons used were an axe and Executioner.

Combine dexterity boosts with strength boosts and it becomes ridiculous (I always keep strength boosted permanently for extra carrying capacity).

Generally, as long as the characters are level 1/2 master in everything they should be fine tanking most monsters as long as you have healing potions.

Interesting... I never though of that.

Yup, punching them works best. It's easy, and your characters gain nice ninja experience.

[slickrcbd]

Works well on the stone golems too, and to a lessor extent on the animated armor with YA BRO or YA IR.
Most everything else you want a bit of hit and run, throwing (especially early mummies and trollins. Throw everything including scrolls held in your off-hand. Same for skeletons), and spells.

For some reason wasps and wizard eyes/beholders are resistant to thrown objects. Especially wasps. On the other hand, you can keep picking up and throwing the same object repeatedly for training.

The regeneration is why I can't use too much hit and run on the worms. The worms at the end of the level is one of the hardest fights in the game as if you retreat to the closeable door there is a chance of finding a regenerated worm pair. Although I've managed to hit and run around and around that room.

[Chaos-Shaman]

hit and run on them

no running, 4x4 kill method. take that axe to their heads. I use to use all spell power, first two or three times with DM, but the axe for me is most powerful, retreat isn't in the axe, might as well have an attack like SCALP... I love this idea it can be done, if the monster is prone just add the bitmaps with its head scalped

[slickrcbd]

I agree for the rockpiles using a poison cloud helps, but often my Champions are incapable of throwing them so easily for the ones you meet on level 3. They might have just enough mana for one poison cloud, and then it usually fizzles. I almost always choose Champions for their carrying capacity above all else, so it's always some combo of Halk, Stamm, Daroou, Hisssa, Sonja, and Leela.
Usually I can use a poison cloud for the ones at the start of level four. Still, even with a poison cloud I punch them out.

I've never tried more than one KU/strength or ROS/dex potion at a time, generally whatever strength I found in the dungeon, and didn't see it making a significant difference except for that one point where you have to shoot an arrow a long way on level 6.

As for being master level, I've had trouble just tanking multiple animated armor with a party of Halk Stamm, Sonja and Leela, who are some of the best fighters in the game, with them all at least LO master everything in the four professions, with a few UM master levels. Even with YA IR up. That is, if "tanking" means walk up to the monster and slug it out without maneuvering, using a closing door, or casting more than a single YA IR.
Of course, by that point, I'll maneuver a bit with hit and run, taking my licks while doing damage in return.
Oh, just a single animated armor isn't a problem tanking, it's the groups that is a problem. Although, I do make it sound harder than it actually is.

[Thorham]

I've never tried more than one KU/strength or ROS/dex potion at a time, generally whatever strength I found in the dungeon, and didn't see it making a significant difference except for that one point where you have to shoot an arrow a long way on level 6.

Stat boost potions become effective when you have your characters drink enough of them to boost a stat by a 100 points or so. One or two of those potions won't make a real difference.

I've had trouble just tanking multiple animated armor with a party of Halk Stamm, Sonja and Leela, who are some of the best fighters in the game

That's what you need the dexterity boosts for. When boosted by 100+ points, those armors will hit less often, and take more hits as well. On top of that, you need good weapons and health potions. The effect of 100+ extra dexterity is quite unbalanced, actually. When maxed out (170, I think), you could probably take those guys on naked, if you have weapons that are effective against armor.

if "tanking" means walk up to the monster and slug it out without maneuvering, using a closing door, or casting more than a single YA IR.

Tanking means you just take the damage head on. Reducing damage by casting shield spells and boosting dexterity simply makes it more doable. Plenty of potions help as well.

The deal with tanking those animated armors is the death knights (VERY similar to those armors, they even drop the same items when killed) at a certain point in Choas Strikes Back where you can't run away and you have no choice but to tank them.

[terkio]

Champions filled to the brim with Ku potions:
In CSB, at the Ku entrance beyond the DDD, 4 Death Knights come at you.
There, after filling my champions with a lot Ku potions, I fought them, toe to toe, killing all of them.
Because of that, not giving an inch backward, I missed the right way to enter the Ku area. I found much later, a movable wall in my back was giving access to the Ku area.
Champions filled to the brim with wisdom potions:
Wizards and Priets are devastating with vorpale blades onto mermerizers.

[slickrcbd]

Makes me want to give it another go even though I'm in the middle of a game of Icewind Dale II.
I've never managed to use all spell power. Even taking the Champions with the most mana I always seem to be short in the beginning. Then I wind up overloaded because they can't haul all the loot and I'm a packrat. It's why I prefer starting with strong (that can haul a lot of loot) Champions and building up their wizard and priest levels (ASAP).

By the later levels I tend to mix up might and magic. The only things I take on with spells only are wasps and often ghosts when I can one-spell kill them (and obviously the one on level 4). Although I often wind up fireballing or poison balling the gigglers as they run away.

On the other hand, by the late levels I often find myself relying more on magic than I should, and have to remind myself to work on ninja levels or even fighter levels. Diamond Edge, Hardcleve, Inquisitor, Delta Sword, and Fury tend to be quite good.
BTW, I find the gigglers the most annoying monster in the dungeon.

[Seriously Unserious]

Although I often wind up fireballing or poison balling the gigglers as they run away.

I'm sure everyone does that, there really isn't much other choice, there is no way the party can catch them, unless you get lucky and trap them in a dead end.

Just tank them. When you play with just two characters, they become quite strong (as in lots of health) and can tank almost anything that doesn't hurl fireballs at them. Animated armors and death knights can be tanked if you boost dexterity (140+) and use good weapons (or it takes too long). Dexterity increases the characters' hit chance, and decreases their chance of being hit. A good example is the death knights in CSB (Dead End part).

I've never really bothered with the booster potions, unless I found one in the dungeon. When I played most of my DM, it was on the Amiga and the boosting potions wore out too fast to get any significant bonus out of them, so I got in the habit of not bothering with them, unless I found one already made, then I usually just drank it at the first tough monster I came across, mainly to empty out the flask so I could store more useful things in it, like Vi, Ya, ViBro or Ma potions. In RTC I guess the stat boosting potions are more useful as the time it takes for them to wear off is much longer so that enough stat bonuses can be gained for it to make a real difference.

I have found that good armor does make a significant difference in the amount of damage a character takes, so when I do need to tank monsters I make sure the ones in front have the best armor available on them, and a good supply of potions to keep their health up.

can tank almost anything that doesn't hurl fireballs at them.

Using strong fireshields and Vi potions I've managed to tank viper demons, demons and vexirks as well. I wouldn't recommend it on a dragon though, about all the fireshelds do is keep your party from being one hit nuked by their fiery breath. Still, those fireshields have saved my party and bought them time to retreat and heal while fighting a dragon if they do get caught by any dragonfireballs.

Yup, punching them works best. It's easy, and your characters gain nice ninja experience.

I've used stabbing with a dagger or arrow effectively as well, but yeah, punching is probably about as good as most weapons at that stage of the game against the rock piles. I also love using the rapier's jab when I find it, it's one of the fastest ways to build up fighter levels, especially in The Screamer Room. Of course, the rapier eventually does become obsolete though, but it's the best weapon for gaining early fighter levels, probably up to about expert or so before it loses its effectiveness and by then you're probably found much better weapons, like the axe or hardcleave by then.

[Thorham]

I've never really bothered with the booster potions, unless I found one in the dungeon.

I never bothered with them, either, until I started playing the hard dungeon in meynaf's ST port of the game. It was in that dungeon that I discovered how useful they can be.

When I played most of my DM, it was on the Amiga and the boosting potions wore out too fast to get any significant bonus out of them

When you boost a stat by over a 100, they last a while. Just keep the boosts up with excess mana. Works great for characters with high wisdom. I find that characters with high wisdom always have lots of mana to spare when they have both wizard and priest levels in the low masters levels. I used to just pump the mana into fire balls for experience, but it's not very effective, and those boosting potions are more useful. Characters such as Chani have such high mana regeneration, that they can convert mana to stat boosts faster than the boosts go down. Perhaps boosting wisdom improves this.

In RTC I guess the stat boosting potions are more useful as the time it takes for them to wear off is much longer so that enough stat bonuses can be gained for it to make a real difference.

They make a difference in the original ports, too. I only play meynaf's ST port on my Amiga, and I don't think he's changed the rate at which the stat boosts go down.

Using strong fireshields and Vi potions I've managed to tank viper demons, demons and vexirks as well.

For some reason I always forget about the fire shield. Same for the normal shield.

[slickrcbd]

I never had much trouble tanking less than four vexirks myself. They don't have too much health, so a few good blows and they are vaporized. Their spells aren't too powerful either. A LO level fireshield is often the most extra protection I need.
Also if you have room to dodge, it's not that hard to step out of the way of their spells.

As for duration, I too found the duration on the Apple IIGS version to be a bit too short for the stat boosting potions to be good for more than one monster or group of monsters. I never really experimented with stacking the potions however. I just tried the potions found in the dungeon, and I'm not sure that they were at MON level, they might have only been at EE level. It's been too long, I can't recall.

Sorry, I'm speaking from memory. I haven't played since at least 2008, since I know I more or less permanently retired my Apple IIGS in January of 2009. Not that it doesn't work (or it did when I last fired it up), but I ran out of room for all my computers and had to choose, so I decided to preserve my first computer for nostalgia's sake as I figured some day I might want to show my kids or grandkids (although it doesn't seem like a likely prospect. I'm doomed to be an eternal bachelor).

[Seriously Unserious]

For some reason I always forget about the fire shield. Same for the normal shield.

When I first started playing, I also used to forget about it -- unless I was entering an area where I knew there were traps that shoot strong fireballs at the party, like in the later parts of Neta in CSB, where you can't survive it without plenty of fireshields. I think what got me into using them more was one time I had a bunch of residual fireshelds when I entered the demon area of the FulYa pit area and got fireballed by a viper demon and it did --- absolutely nothing to my party, not even 1HP of damage to anyone. At that point I just got my fighters hacking away, and kept the fireshields powered up until I was through that spot. That was on my Amiga, sometime just before DF0 packed it in and I couldn't load DM or CSB anymore.

I also got my party immune to the black flames as well using the fireshield strategy. Fireshields are also a must in areas where it's not easy to avoid a dragon's fireballs too (such as a long, narrow hallway), those can 1-hit kill even a party of master level characters. On RTC, I've also noticed that dragons are more vulnerable to poison missiles and poison clouds then fireballs, which makes sense since dragons are naturally aligned with fire.

As for the normal shield, I never have bothered with it, mainly because I have absolutely no clue what the heck it does. I've experimented with it a bit but never had any "a-ha!" experiences with it.

When you boost a stat by over a 100, they last a while. Just keep the boosts up with excess mana.

Maybe this worked a bit different on the ST then the Amiga? I always found they dissipated too fast on the Amiga to stack them, invariably my spell casters would have to sleep to regain enough mana to cast more potions and by the time they'd finish sleeping the effects of the last batch would be almost gone.

I never had much trouble tanking less than four vexirks myself. They don't have too much health, so a few good blows and they are vaporized. Their spells aren't too powerful either. A LO level fireshield is often the most extra protection I need.

That is true. Mostly I'd psyche myself out because of their fireballs. The Mon Vexirks are a bit of a different thing though, they do have a bit of HP and their fireballs are a bit more dangerous then the regular vexirks.

[slickrcbd]

As far as I can tell, YA IR and YA BRO had the same effect, but YA IR covered the entire party for a short duration, and YA BRO covered a single character for a much longer duration. It seemed to reduce the amount of physical damage my characters took in melee combat.
However, I only really found it useful for things like animated armors that hit frequently or if I was in a bind where I got cornered by two [groups of] monsters like in the outis room.
I'd occasionally put it up when tanking things and working on fighter or ninja levels, especially rockpiles and pain rats, as it was good practice for my spellcasters and it was useful and not wasting the spells.

[Seriously Unserious]

Ah, that makes sense. I'll have to play around with these shields some more and see if they really do produce enough of a difference to be worth the mana.

[Simon]

I'm pretty sure the youtube speedrun of DM involves them landing on the dragon through a pit to kill it instantly.

Hmm just checked, perhaps it was a CSB dragon.

[slickrcbd]

Most of the time, it wasn't worth the mana, but if I needed to work on fighter or ninja levels, I might cast it anyways if somebody had full mana. I never let them stay at full mana, especially if I am toe-to-toe with a monster. I'll cast YA IR or a stray LO-level attack spell just to use up mana.

Up until last week, I'd have expected a speed run to ignore the dragon. You don't HAVE to kill it. In fact, the only real reason to is because its there [to provide a challenge].

I once had a game where I got down there and I didn't see the dragon at first. I raided the scarce treasure on the floor (gems and odd coins were useless, I needed more copper coins), completed the Firestaff, and finally heard and found him skulking in a corner. I thought "he's scared of me!", smarter than he looks.
He never even launched a fireball at me as I headed towards the stairs.
I had everything ready to take him out, but just let him go since he didn't bother me.

[Seriously Unserious]

that's funny. I never had the Big Bad Dragon behave like that in my games, though. I always got positioned to I had to kill it to get past it.

Of course, the dragon steaks are another tempting reason to kill it, but then again, once you're going after Chaos, you don't really need much food, just a safe place to drop down a pit to and rest without worrying about being attacked if you're party gets too beat up trying to fluxcage LC.