New Player Question

Discuss anything about the original Dungeon Master on any of the original platforms (Amiga, Atari, etc.).
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Saumun
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

Jeez... That's some bad luck!

If you return to it, you'll progress much faster next time... so hopefully it won't be too much of a chore.
And yes, CSB is harder, but there are people here that can help you along the way. It's a bit disorienting at first, but as you piece it together you appreciate how superbly designed it is.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

Yes, a bit of bad luck there. I agree should I give it another go, I should be better. I'm not sure I will remember all the things I need to gather on the way and where they are, but I''ll surely be better than I was this time.

I wonder how many managed to solve the game first time through without collaboration. I'm mildly surprised that this game did not auto map. I am unsure but wasn't auto-mapping a general feature of games around the time this showed up?

Some of the game is frustrating or was for me. I never did figure out how to do that square area which changes whether you walk backwards or forwards or whatever. I just staggered around there until I managed an escape. The other place I remember being annoyed is the zooooom area where one gets buzzed around a course and often thrown back to the start.

Mostly, I"d have liked to get all the skull keys to facilitate level travel, but I only found maybe 3. Maybe 4. Not sure but most passages remained closed to me.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

Depends on the level of collaboration. The first time i completed it was with a friend from across the street, but apart from that it was just us. That being said, it took a few weeks... and we missed many things.

Tip for the skeleton keys: There are six keyholes, but only five keys. You must decide which not to open. The winged key is also a useful shortcut at the end of the game.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Paul Stevens »

I am unsure but wasn't auto-mapping a general feature of games around the time this showed up
At the time DM was released for 512KB Atari, the game taxed
every part of the hardware to its limit. Memory, disk, sound, CPU,
and video were all utilized just a bit beyond their natural limits.
There was no way anyone could fit an additional feature such as
mapping into the game. An amazing technical feat.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Jan »

One of the beautiful things with a game like this was that you had to do the mapping manually with a pencil and a paper. Automapping would ruin it all. But of course it was released in times when people had time, there was no internet, no nothing, so we would spend ages drawing large maps of games we played. Nowadays everyone, including kids, is so busy...
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Ameena »

The only items you need to gather on your way through the dungeon are
Spoiler
the three Ra keys and the Master key
before you backtrack to Level Seven. It's handy, though, to keep hold of the various Riddle Room items -
Spoiler
bow, gold coin, mirror, blue gem
but there is another entrance to Level Six which doesn't require you to pass through there. Every other item has varying degrees of usefulness - things like flasks and food are obviously pretty important, whereas most of the "treasure" items (gems, coins, jewellery) are basically useless.
The "square area" at the start of Level Eleven I can never seem to quite figure out, either, despite following the directions of the signs on the wall - eventually it opens up and I just carry on (you know when you've got to the right bit 'cause you start getting attacked by Wasps) :D. I don't recall Zooooom being particularly annoying, you just stand on it and make sure you grab the key partway around (your movement pauses for enough time to be able to do this) :).
And when it comes to the Skeleton keys I skip using the one on Level Twelve - I'll get the key, but I'll use it on the level below - Level Twelve is somewhere I'm very happy to leave behind and have no desire to go back to once I'm done with it :D.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Jan »

Uhm, Ameena :) , I'm sorry, but, again... there's no way around the Riddle Room, you just have to go through it. And you probably confuse Zooom with Enlarge my View. I apologise for being pedantic, though. :oops:
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

Ameena wrote:The only items you need to gather on your way through the dungeon are
Spoiler
the three Ra keys and the Master key
before you backtrack to Level Seven.
.... and the
Spoiler
Ruby Key
!
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Ameena »

Oh yeah, lol, that too ;). So that's only five things that you specifically need, unless you want to count the Firestaff and Power Gem ;).
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Guillaume »

Aww man, I read through this whole thread rooting for you and hoping you'd make it, and the end was so unexpected and ... sad for poor ole Tiggy :(
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Guillaume »

Also if you're on Windows you can put CSBWin on Onedrive and play it directly from there; this makes sure that if your PC crashes you don't lose anything.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

I'm not upset at all at having lost the savegame at the very end. I feel I got all the parts needed to complete the game so only missed a final battle which isn't really a battle but a capture of some sort. I saw the video posted here of that fellow who ran through the game in record time so saw the fusion occur which has me satisfied.

Ameena - the zooooom i'm talking about has, AFAIK, no keys. It's a series of transporters where, if one steps off at anywhere other than the right place, one ends up being transported back to the start. I think there are some static areas too which lead nowhere so one must get back on board again to be tossed to the start.

I found this to leave me screaming in frustration at having to replay this area along with its annoying noises over and over. I almost resigned the game here in disgust. The walk backwards square just baffled me. I was distressed at the prospect of redoing that because I thought getting past it was blind luck which may not be repeatable. I still have no notion what that was.

Jan, Paul - I don't know that automapping would ruin anything, but it'd be impossible to do, I suppose given the areas such as the square walk backwards area. I can see it not being feasible on a 512k box, of course. A further accomplishment would have been to jam it into a 720k disc.

Looking backwards in sum, I find myself somewhat bemused that I had no difficulty with dying. After all, I was playing a DiD game due to not being able to access the Vi alcoves. The only deaths I remember were of my own making when once I hurled a big fireball as I turned so hit the wall with me in the next square. That was that. I repeated that a few times intentionally to restart a section for a new play through after I realized I'd screwed something up during the early going of the session. I may have been killed by foes too but honestly cannot remember having been so. Mostly I had issues on how to proceed or resources.

Presumably, if I were to redo this, I'd do at least a duo say a magic maker who starts high in mana and a strong fighter such as either the tyrannosaur or the fellow who looks as if he's wearing a fur burkha.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by terkio »

I think you missed the fun of doing Lord Chaos at his lair. Not an easy task when you don't know him quite well.
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Re: New Player Question

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Even if you were to take Tiggy again I think you'd find the game easier if you paired her up with pretty much anyone else - even those who start with no mana should be fairly easily trained up to get some even if you have no mana-granting items on you to let them cast spells immediately :D. My usual starting duo is reincarnated Hissssa and Wuuf, the former of whom only has enough mana to cast a Lo rune, then I have to rest so I have enough to cast Ful. I refuse to move from the bottom of the stairs at the start of Level Two until I've got the light level maxed out via casting spells - I never bother with torches :D.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

Guillaume wrote:Also if you're on Windows you can put CSBWin on Onedrive and play it directly from there; this makes sure that if your PC crashes you don't lose anything.
I think a better solution would be to get a backup which can restore when needed. After all, my issue with data loss in DM pales compared to other losses.
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Re: New Player Question

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terkio wrote:I think you missed the fun of doing Lord Chaos at his lair. Not an easy task when you don't know him quite well.
OK. Here's how I'd have done it. Tell me if this makes sense. I base it on the video I saw.
Spoiler
I'm guessing, based on how this game rolls, that it's impossible or close to impossible to build a four wall cage. The guy will squirt out before the fourth wall. So the trick may be to get him next to a wall which forms one side of the cage and leaves me only three to construct. I have been through that room and if the fire monkeys regen, it may be beyond me to deal with them and the flaming hubcaps as well as the foozle.
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Re: New Player Question

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Ameena wrote:Even if you were to take Tiggy again I think you'd find the game easier if you paired her up with pretty much anyone else - even those who start with no mana should be fairly easily trained up to get some even if you have no mana-granting items on you to let them cast spells immediately :D. My usual starting duo is reincarnated Hissssa and Wuuf, the former of whom only has enough mana to cast a Lo rune, then I have to rest so I have enough to cast Ful. I refuse to move from the bottom of the stairs at the start of Level Two until I've got the light level maxed out via casting spells - I never bother with torches :D.
Sounds reasonable. I never experimented with reincarnation but only did the resurrect. If I go again, I'll try a duo which should be a good combo of power but not with too much need for resources. Then again, a strong melee fighter should be able to handle many chests of supplies. It'd be nice to not be so weak at the start as I was this round. Watching that video and seeing the one shot kills on mummies from the get go convinced me I'd dealt a bad hand to myself in my choice of a solo PC in Tiggy.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Paul Stevens »

When using CSBWin, don't forget the DMRules option. CSBWin
was designed for Chaos Strikes back as a default (hence its name).
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Re: New Player Question

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slide wrote:
Spoiler
I'm guessing, based on how this game rolls, that it's impossible or close to impossible to build a four wall cage. The guy will squirt out before the fourth wall. So the trick may be to get him next to a wall which forms one side of the cage and leaves me only three to construct. I have been through that room and if the fire monkeys regen, it may be beyond me to deal with them and the flaming hubcaps as well as the foozle.
Well, my trick is to stop thinking and turn ON the "panic" mode -
Spoiler
ignore the flames and demons, find Chaos, and then start running around him randomly and casting the Cages; from time to time, try Fusing him, if that doesn't work, back to step 1
. :wink: I'm simply too disorganised to do that properly, but, belive me, it's not that hard, it can just take you a couple of attempts.
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Re: New Player Question

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When I'm dealing with Lord Chaos, my technique is to
Spoiler
enter the room and head to the right, where there is a fairly open area devoid of pits or Fire Elementals, and where Demons don't really tend to go unless you've explored the room more and attracted their attention. Then I just cast three Fluxcages around myself and leave the fourth space open, turning every few seconds to refresh those three so they don't disappear. Eventually Lord Chaos shows up and will step around the Fluxcages to get to me (he never willingly enters a square containing one). Eventually he steps into the cageless square so I cast a Fluxcage there and take a step back - he steps forward into the centre (the square I just left), I hit Fuse and boom, got the bugger :D
. But as you can see, there are a few different ways to catch the bugger :).

As far as a new party is concerned, I would say in DM it's always best to Reincarnate rather than Resurrect - the few skill levels they had will be regained pretty quickly and since you get stat increases every time you level up a skill, this means they will get a few extra stat points that they wouldn't otherwise have got (plus you get to rename them ;)). Any character can potentially master everything so you don't really need to worry about their starting stats - you've already done a solo run with Tiggy and she's the hardest, so I wouldn't worry too much about anyone else ;). Starting gear can be useful, depending on what it is for a nice bonus, for example I like Wuuf because he starts with a flask (also, he's a cute doggy - my party choice is actually pretty heavily influenced by how cool I think their portraits are :D) so it means I can start casting potions immediately if I want to and not wait till partway through the next level (which admittedly isn't very far ;)). But I only ever bother with two flasks, one for each character which they keep in theor off-hands at all times and I cast and use potions as and when I need them.

Other characters may start with melée weapons (eg Stamm has an axe, which otherwise doesn't show up till Level Four), food, or stat-boosting gear but really, that's just a minor bonus for the start - Level Two has enough supplies that you should be okay after that point :). I never end up with "many chests of supplies" - my two just take one chest each into which I store my more fulfilling food, then eat the cheeses first (because it's the heaviest) and then the vast quantities of Screamer Slices I end up with after the early levels and which end up taking up a large amount of my inventory space...and usually last me the entire dungeon so I never get to even taste a Dragon Steak (in fact, I don't even bother to loot them) :D.

Also, like PaulS says, make sure you've selected "DM Rules" if you're playing CSBWin (I think it's an option in one of the drop-down menus along the top of the screen), otherwise I think your characters take a permanent hit to their stats or hp or something when you reincarnate them.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

I just tend to run in and cast fluxcages everywhere. Not very methodical, but it cuts down the places Chaos can move to.

I've done solo runs with quite a few different champions (inc. Tiggy), but i tend to go for the fighters for the high strength. Usually Hissssa, Halk, or Stamm. With Halk or Stamm you can war cry a couple of priest levels until you have enough mana to cast Ya (if you have a flask) or Ful. Then you're pretty much set to go.
Like Ameena, i only really bother with one flask per champion (with one spare) and keep it in the off hand for potions (except for giggler areas... because i can't be bothered to chase them).
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Re: New Player Question

Post by slide »

Paul, Ameena

DM rules? I have no idea what this is about but if it means the game is easier, then perhaps that explains why I struggled so.

I see there is a good deal of flex when tackling the foozle. I would have likely cleared the fire monkeys out first, assuming they don't regen which I don't know, and then finished the task. My general method in the game is to clear then explore but I see the vets here and in that video tend to run past. Of course, the vets know what not to run past which I still don't have memorized or even close to that.

I have to say that the idea of using a powerful melee fighter to maybe do in a knight with a few satisfactory whacks instead of doing them in by 1,000 cuts, is attractive. I am a big proponent of ranged fighting. For example, anybody who analyzed the David and Goliath myth would conclude that Goliath was at the serious disadvantage as are any melee fighters when faced with a ranged opponent.

Thus my choice of magic and ninja skills only to see my ninja skills neutered by half game.

Saumun - interesting info on war crying. I thought that was a joke entry in the game of some sort it seemingly to be ineffective sort of like the rabbit foot which, likewise, I found pointless along with the jewelry.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Paul Stevens »

interesting info on war crying. I thought that was a joke entry in the game
In Chaos Strikes Back you will find it much more useful.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Jan »

slide wrote:Saumun - interesting info on war crying. I thought that was a joke entry in the game of some sort it seemingly to be ineffective sort of like the rabbit foot which, likewise, I found pointless along with the jewelry.
Rabbit foot (anywhere in a champion's inventory) increases you Luck level (Luck is one of the Hidden skills).
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Re: New Player Question

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War Cry is supposed to scare off creatures for a short time, but I don't think it works on everything. It levels up your Priest skill so is a way to get mana. There are also items (like the various wands and staves, also the moonstone) which give you some mana points while you have them equipped - you can give one to one of your low/no-mana characters so they have enough to practice casting some crappy spells (mana-wise, the cheapest thing it's possible to cast is Lo Ya, the first-level Stamina potion), then once they've gained a level or two they should have a mana pool of their own so you won't need to keep equipping the mana-granting item :).

It's worth having your whole party practice every skill, at least a little bit, to gain at least a few levels in order to improve their stats so that you don't find things too difficult later. I tend to neglect the Ninja skill entirely until I'm down to about Level Nine-ish of the dungeon, at which point I have each character practice throwing a heavy item (usually a chest) over and over again until their skill has levelled up enough that the item travels one square before landing and I have to actually take a step in order to pick it up again (happens at Journeyman level, I've found). Then I switch to the next character and repeat :D.

In answer to your query about "DM Rules", it's something that you need to have ticked in the options at the top somewhere. I think if you don't turn it on, characters who are recruited at the beginning of the game will take a hit to their stats or hp or something. I'm not sure what else happens if you don't turn it on but generally the game will be harder - CSBWin was a port of CSB first, which is a harder game and had some tweaks from DM, so you need to basically enable "DM Mode" when playing DM so it uses the right version of the rules :).
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Re: New Player Question

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Paul, Jan - I never got any results with war cries. As to hidden qualities, I can't even account for the non-hidden ones so this was much too subtle for me. I never found any difference with or without the foot. Likewise, my small experiments with armour yielded no discernible improvement in my PC's ability to take hits. The problem may be that, AFAIK, each hit is a dice throw so I can't dupe an attack exactly even with the same foe at the same place.

Ameena - OK, I gave in and relocated the game and started anew. Seeing the DM Rules comment, I then searched the menus and found it right where I'd likely seen it a dozen times but paid it no mind. There are other interesting options too. So I turned it on and started a new team made up of Hisssssa (who I thought was a tyrannosaurus) and Wuuf both reincarnated.

The difference in game play is dramatic. Even Wuuf, who I take is roughly the same fighter as Tiggy, can, sometimes, one shot ninja a cabbage / screamer. The whole game's feel has changed. Rather than having to beat on foes for a great long time, I find I'm cutting through them like that video where he'd toss an ax and achieve a one shot kill. The game is enormously more enjoyable now that I'm evenly matched with foes rather than being over matched even from the walking unprocessed sauerkraut on a stick.

I have to attribute this to checking DM Rules at the get go. I say this because even with Tiggy at expert fighter and juiced to the gills on Strength portions, I still spent enormous time pounding on any foes to achieve a kill. My sense is that leaving the game at default means the PC(s) are static but the foes have either much more HP or the dice are loaded to yield softer hits. I suspect the latter.

I'm also following Ameena's advice on a slow stroll through L2 practicing to achieve level. Hissssa now can cast a low level torch while Wuuf has achieved Novice and can cast 2nd level fireballs. My next step is to get these two up in Ninja and Fighter and then return to the magic practice.

Looking backward at my previous game, I distinguished myself by choosing the wrong option every time from the weakest PC to the most difficult foe set.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Paul Stevens »

I think the 'DM Rules' have only one effect. They increase all
reincarnated character's stats at the time of character creation.
Actually, they negate the reduction in stats. They play no role
after character creation. I think.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Saumun »

Good party choices.... Hissssa is usually my 'go to' guy. A very good fighter with high strength, and can even get a decent amount of mana with patience.
Running solo with Tiggy is probably the most difficult unless you're an experienced player.

As for the war cry... Monsters have a sort of bravery stat that will be unknown to a player without experimenting, but on the whole, the higher level monsters are very hard or impossible to scare. Golems and Knights for example.
Screamers and Trolins should scare easily enough, but not every time.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Jan »

The Spiders (Oitus) are very easily scared, that's the best way to deal with them, for instance in the "Cowards will be hunted down and killed" room.
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Re: New Player Question

Post by Ameena »

Cool, you have the same party I always take :D. I've done DM several times with those two, and taken them through CSB as well :). From the sounds of it, a combination of taking the weakest character and then accidentally handicapping her by not turning on the "DM Rules" option at the start is what made the game such a huge challenge for you before. I wouldn't say I "take a slow stroll" through any part of the dungeon...I stop at the bottom of the stairs when I start Level Two just to cast enough Light spells to get the light level maxed, which just happens to involve having to sleep a few times to restore their mana :D. I refuse to use physical torches, since if I do so, I'm losing out on a little extra casting practice at making my own light, and those kinds of torches don't last forever anyway, so in the end you have to start relying on magic for light, so better to start ASAP and get as much exp out of it as possible, right? ;)

DId you Rez again, or did you Reincarnate this time? I always Reincarnate in DM (I like renaming them, plus you end up with slightly better stats from where your party members have to regain whatever levels they lost after having their skills wiped), then take the same duo through into CSB :).
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