Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

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Ion Zone
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Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Ion Zone »

I've always loved Dungeon Master, and hated how short and easy DMII is! Has anyone built a clone of DM2 (that isn't 3D), or created an expanded map for the original game? I have wanted to learn programming for years so that I could recreate DM2, only better, higher res, harder, and with all the spells, monsters, tension, and fear of the first games, I used to spend hours designing it in my head, but I would be happy if someone beat me to it! 8)
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Gambit37 »

DM2 didn't seem to capture most people's imagination the way the originals did. I think because of this, no-one has really gone back to it to see how it might be improved. I think the main problem is that it came out pretty late and by the time it hit the market (in Europe and USA anyway), gamers were already well into the next generation of games like Doom. It came out in '93 in Japan, but with quite bad graphics. Interplay (the distributor) insisted that FTL re-do the graphics for the PC version in Europe/USA, which took another year and a half. But by 1995 gamers were into newer, shinier games.

You're right that a big problem with DM2 is the fact it's so short. After doing all the running around outside and in the caves, when you finally get into the tower, you think "Great! Game starts properly now!" -- and before you know it, it's over. Funny, because it's actually bigger than the original DM in terms of map size.

It would certainly be interesting to see DM2 "done right".

Oh, welcome to the forum too! :)
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by beowuuf »

Indeed, welcome to the forums!

DMII was semi-recreated under RTC, so if you want to expand the original dungeon map that might be the best place to start?
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Ion Zone »

Thanks! ^^ Heh, guess it's up to people like me then! To the codification machine! :P


Unfortunately I am completely new to coding, but if anyone is interested in starting a team, I am very good at Photoshop, and I think DM 1 fans would love the chance to create a copy of DM in a high-res DM2 style. ^^ I'll have a look at that RTC if I can find it, and I'm going to try and expand the original a bit using the editor, if I can.
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Gambit37 »

Check the quick links thing at the top of the site for the download link for RTC. Then come back to the forum and check out the whole RTC section of message boards from the forum homepage -- we have quite a community of RTC map makers here... :-)
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Lord_BoNes »

Return to Chaos, or RTC for short, is a clone of DM which includes the dungeons for DM, DMII and CSB. It definately isn't the easiest to just "pick-up and edit"... you can change the smaller things, but RTC can't actually be "scripted" so editing the dungeons (or even creating a new one yourself) isn't a direct approach.

It can be download here at the forums.
Here is the link.

Just take it easy at first, get your footing, then try some harder stuff. If you want RTC editing assistance, check the forums under "Return To Chaos/RTC Editing". I hope this info has helped :P
 
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Ion Zone »

Thanks, it's a bit of a let-down that it isn't easier to edit, I'm downloading and will have a go, though. I hope one day there is a better editor!
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Lord_BoNes »

Don't get me wrong. Experience gains you ease of use, but a "new-starter" won't neccessarily find it easy to work with.
 
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by beowuuf »

Better to start investigating the original DM dungeon first. The building blocks are simple enough to understand. By DMII, RTC picked up alot of objects to imitate features of that engine, so it might look worse than it is.
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Gambit37 »

@Ionzone: The RTC editor is a piece of cake for basic stuff; it's all point and click and you really can't build a DM type game any more simply in my opinion. Give it a go, you'll soon see... :)
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Trantor »

Welcome to the forums! :)

I am not quite sure what your goal is - expanding DM2 to make it truly great (most people here, me included, agree that DM2 wasn't as good as DM1 and CSB), or look for a great game that could have been DM2? If the latter, there are a lot of great custom dungeons here, check them out.

If you want to create something really new, with new features and tricks that cannot be done in the usual DM engine, you might want to invetigate DSB (Dungeon Strikes Back), another clone of DM similar to RTC. It is more demanding than RTC, but the engine is more powerful and flexible. You need to code some stuff for it, though, while you can get by with pointing and clicking in RTC.
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by ian_scho »

I'd like to point out that one of the best dungeons created for RTC.... Was done using a text editor ;)
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Trantor »

Are you talking about Reactor ian? Sophia's dungeons don't count as they are exceptionally good and Sophia is exceptionally bright. Well, actually they do count, but... you know what I mean. :wink:
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by ian_scho »

Yep... And I also know that you are in Chat with her now so stop sweet talking and start play-testing your own creation! ;)
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Sophia »

:oops:
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Ameena »

Wargh, well that was weird - I saw "Ion Zone" and thought nothing of it, then got confused when I saw people saying stuff like "Welcome to the forum!". Freakishly enough, there's a user called Ion Zone on the other forum I frequent, but I didn't quite twig that till I saw all the hellos ;).
Anyway, welcome to the forum too, since most people seem to be saying that here ;).
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Adamo »

welcome to the forums Ian_Zone...

=> if you want to create a DMII-like looking game, but better and harder, in higher res, using easy editor, with the DM1 or DM2 monsters, RTC would be the best for you... RTC editor is really easy to use, give it a try! RTC contains original DM, CSB and DMII dungeons and a lot of additional dungeons made by fans. But, as being said, you cannot change the engine itself. But you can do almost everything. Well, a lot.

=> I personally prefere CSBwin, because it`s the SAME, ORIGINAL engine as it was used in AtariST Dungeon Master, converted under Windows, though greatly improved. But there are still some limitations, and it`s not easy to go over them. CSBwin has additional, "inner" engine (DSA- designer specified actuators), wchich can do a lot, but it`s not easy to use it.

=> DSB is a different story - it`s most flexble of all, but doesn`t have good editor yet! Though, if you`re a skilled programmer, you could do miracles with it!!

As for now, check the RTC wikipedia - it`s the best source for you for the beginning: http://dmwiki.atomas.com/wiki/RTC
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Ion Zone
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Ion Zone »

there's a user called Ion Zone on the other forum I frequent, but I didn't quite twig that till I saw all the hellos .
Oooh, which one? :P


What I am trying to do is take Dungeon Master II and expand it greatly, turn it into the game I always wanted it to be. What I want to do, to start with, is massively increase the size of the map, build some optional dungeons that reward you with rare or unique items (Including versions of items scripted into DM one but never used), make it much harder to get to and unlock the tower, add many, many, more puzzles, large reductions on the number of powerful items you can buy in the first town, as well as making it much more dangerous.

I'm going to make it harder, but more fun, to do everything, mainly by removing 'farming' elements (Killing the thief over and over will be harder and less rewarding, as will getting your stuff back!). I want to make it so that you feel hunted, like you did in the first game. When I was little I used to lock myself in the barracks and hide the key - that's the sort of feeling I want to conjure! If your heart isn't racing, if you don't feel hunted and outnumbered, it isn't Dungeon Master.

I also intend to take the monsters apart and make them as high resolution, and as scary, as I can (They will still look roughly the same, just smoother, and meaner). I'll import all the ones I can fit in from DM one and make them match the new ones, especially the rock-monsters. :P I also intend to make teleporting much less safe, and really use all the features, traps, and objects in the game.
No longer will you become locked in Skullkeep only to amble up a couple of ladders and find a teliport, particularly not one just sitting in the corner that you don't have to work like hell to activate! Skullkeep will now be a teetering tower of a fortress, and the surounding lands will be about five times bigger, I intend to make the quest to get each piece of the key roughly as hard as getting the entire key is now (on average at least - the difficulty will scale dramaticly).
Last edited by Ion Zone on Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Ameena »

My other forum is the QI forum. My username there is the same as it is here. It's probably just coincidence that you have the same name as the other Ion Zone ;).
One thing in DM2 that's rather annoying is those bloody Attack Minions that Dragoth keeps sending after you as you progress - they seem to come more often and definitely get stronger the further you go. It's fine, I reckon, to have mobs here and there in their own places, but to have these bloody flying things constantly coming after you while you're trying to concentrate on other stuff does get a bit irritating after a while. At least you can run through them 'cause they're flying...
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Trantor »

It sounds like you are describing my upcoming dungeon Ion Zone. :P But seriously, I'm not sure if the idea really works if you just expand DM2. Creating something completely new with the elements you describe might be more interesting.
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by beowuuf »

Watch that 'hunted' doesn't become 'frustrated'. One of the things that really annoyed me about DM2 was the minions. Not in a good challenging way, just in a a 'oh, thanks for not letting me actually explore in a game about exploration' way, where basically I was punished later for looking around earlier by more frequent minions before I could ever get into the tower to ZO the portals temporarily closed. It was quite frankly boring to move a little bit, then be shot from nowhere (especially if trying to do something that required skill or if I was alreayd engaged or god help me was trying to ge to terms with a new areas), so I'd have to back off, kill the minion quickly (quickly), then try to remember what I was doing.

I thinjm I would prefer one very tough minion that you got harrassed by, but could avoid in key areas, that would thne harrass you again when you left those areas. Think Half life and the helicopter :)
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Ameena »

Wuffy, we seem to have more-or-less simul-posted similar thoughts ;).
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Ion Zone »

It's probably just coincidence that you have the same name as the other Ion Zone .
Actually I use that name everywhere. :P


By hunted I certainly don't mean infinatly spawning rivers of monsters (As in Eye of the Beholder), but rather shifting sets of cleverly place creatures (some of whom might be passive or aggressive). It's all down to placement, really, and sorting out those areas where you can just sit and kill waves of monsters (I intend to make use viewing distance and, if possible, triggers).

Think more the area with the wolves (a place that still makes me jittery!). In there you have to dive up and down ladders, you might have to risk leaping into pits, you never know quite where you are, or where any of the monsters are (the higher level maps notwithstanding, I'm going to split a few of those off from their keys, I think, not far, but far enough, and positioned such, that attempting to get them is a risk with a cool reward)

The minions got close to that, but I intend to change them from being a long stream of monsters, to the occasional, powerful, assassin. Essentially, I intend to change the feel of the enemies so that each and every one of them feels like it's out to get you. And they won't all be the same strength - two good fireballs used to kill almost anything in DM2, and they won't line up to wait for you gun them down.
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Ameena »

Then again, not every monster in DM2 was out to get you - the Thorn Demons and Wolves didn't attack you unless you hit them first, and with the latter you could chuck the bone to distract them for a bit while one went to fetch it and bring it back to you.
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Ion Zone »

Yeah, I guessed from that that what I wanted to do was possible within the engine, I like the way they included the capacity to outwit monsters and I want to take advantage of that. The very first areas I'm going to expand are the thorn demon and worm sections, if I work outward it will be easier, though many of the entrances, etc, will have to be moved for space reasons.

*Edit*

I like the new spells! I always wanted other elements! :mrgreen: I do think for DM 2 that the dagger spell (A good interpretation of earth, though it should really include the rune KU) should create a fairly heavy stone dagger that is only worth 1cp per level or cannot be sold (or requires KU), it shouldn't be a overly desirable item, though re-using it would be fine, I think your adventurer should have to be holding a rock to cast it (a large rock might give you two shots - or a sword at high power levels.). The stone dagger instead of metal bit, at least, should be quite easy with a bit of fiddling. I could come up with quite a few spells that should always have been in the game. I am a little disappointed that the RTC version of DM2 is very slow and seems to lack all its animations - I think RTC is using the DM 1 animations for everything - possibly even the same engine - as the credits on exit are identical to the DM 1 ones.

Is there an easy way to import objects, etc, from the example levels?
Last edited by Ion Zone on Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Ion Zone »

By the way, if anyone wants to team up to expand Dungeon Master II and make it what it should have been, I would love to help!
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Adamo »

@Ion: as I said, you already have DM2 in RTC (as an optionally dungeon). It woundn`t be hard to expand this game. Just open DM2 folder in RTC editor... You should easily get how the inner puzzles works. Or do you want to write a game like DM2 in RTC engine from the beginning?

It would be very good idea to expand DM2 and make it a lot harder game than it was. I also hate the monster graphics. And the minions. I always said that DM2 could be a great game if it was as hard as CSB without that cortoonish graphics and some ingame changes. I hated DM2 as it was, but I might enjoy it very much if it was changed in well direction!
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by beowuuf »

DM2 in RTC does have a basic DM1 engine underneath, but lots of the mechanics like the shop and animations are from DM2. The half-step movement and constant move of the creatures might be missing, but it sometimes looked weird when you were moving swiftly!
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Trantor »

The idea of updating an existing dungeon is intriguing. Were I to do that, it wouldn't be DM2, however. DM2 was lacking in a number of ways in my mind. The game never really grasped me nearly as much as DM1 or CSB, and I think no matter how much you change and add, if you just expand DM2, my dislike for the game and its basic setup will probably still remain. I think the whole structure is flawed - you start in something that resembles a town with shops and all, and all the best equipment in the game can be bought right then and there. Just farm a little, and there you are. Then you run in a circle around a tower, waiting to finally get in there to get the actual game going - and when you finished, you realize the feelingly unnecessary prologue outside was already half of the game. This, along with the futuristic sci-fi elements that I don't like, will probably hinder any attempts to update DM2 to a great game for me. It's just my personal opinion, but I think an updated DM1 dungeon could be much more interesting, because, let's face it, many parts of DM1 are a bit empty and lacking.
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Re: Dungeon Master Two Reborn?

Post by Sophia »

I agree with Trantor, and I'm even more fond of the sci-fi or sci-fantasy elements. :)
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