Transparency in graphics

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ebeneezergude
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Transparency in graphics

Post by ebeneezergude »

Short question:
If I have more bitmaps loaded with lots of transparency, does this affect the efficiency and/or speed of the RTC engine, does anyone know?

Reason for asking:
When creating new wall objects, for example, having created a few wall objects, I'm finding it far more efficient to use the same bitmap size for a full height object (a 222px high, 40px wide, floor to ceiling alcove, for example) and use this for a small object (a switch, for example), as once the wall object template has been set up, it means I don't have to try and individually set up each X Y co-ordinate in RTC for each bitmap once imported into RTC (which is a long and laborious process).

Ie, it means a 'small switch' bitmap is the same size as the full height 'alcove' bitmap, same co-ords, but most of the bitmap is actually transparent, and I don't have to spend ages trying to get the XY co-ords for the small switch bitmap to fit perfectly on a crack in the wall on a Side1 wallgraphic...!

So this means I have a relatively quick method to make all wall objects aligned and positionally correct within the viewport (they all have the same bitmap pixel dimensions irrespective of the actual 'graphic' contained with the bitmap), but, it means there are more, larger bitmaps with more transparencies.


Does this 'more transparencies' negatively impact upon the RTC engine performance? Am using PNGs.
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Re: Transparency in graphics

Post by linflas »

It probably will.

Maybe you should try my old and buggy tool RTCIP to set wallitems position.
http://www.dmjump.net/rtcip0.4.rar
Download file rtcip0.4.rar from this shared OneDrive in the Tools folder.
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Re: Transparency in graphics

Post by ebeneezergude »

Thanks Linflas. Unfortunately I can't open that program for some reason. Flashes up a window for a split second then closes. :-(
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Re: Transparency in graphics

Post by terkio »

I checked. This runs fine under my Windows XP.
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Re: Transparency in graphics

Post by Seriously Unserious »

It works on my XP computer, but ebeneezer did mention he's using Vista SP 2 in another thread, so maybe try running it in XP compatibility mode and see if that helps.
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Re: Transparency in graphics

Post by linflas »

it's been written at XP era... but worked on some Vista and 7 boxes... depends on your graphics card
(flashes but runs fine on my 7 ultimate 64 bits)
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Re: Transparency in graphics

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

ebeneezergude wrote:Short question:
If I have more bitmaps loaded with lots of transparency, does this affect the efficiency and/or speed of the RTC engine, does anyone know?

Reason for asking:
When creating new wall objects, for example, having created a few wall objects, I'm finding it far more efficient to use the same bitmap size for a full height object (a 222px high, 40px wide, floor to ceiling alcove, for example) and use this for a small object (a switch, for example), as once the wall object template has been set up, it means I don't have to try and individually set up each X Y co-ordinate in RTC for each bitmap once imported into RTC (which is a long and laborious process).
that's right, you think the same way i do, it is way easier just to leave the full size and plug in the image, it can always be resized later

Ie, it means a 'small switch' bitmap is the same size as the full height 'alcove' bitmap, same co-ords, but most of the bitmap is actually transparent, and I don't have to spend ages trying to get the XY co-ords for the small switch bitmap to fit perfectly on a crack in the wall on a Side1 wallgraphic...!

So this means I have a relatively quick method to make all wall objects aligned and positionally correct within the viewport (they all have the same bitmap pixel dimensions irrespective of the actual 'graphic' contained with the bitmap), but, it means there are more, larger bitmaps with more transparencies.


Does this 'more transparencies' negatively impact upon the RTC engine performance? Am using PNGs.
i found no slow down, and as long as you do not allow any into the end game results, .png is way better, it can be indexed, bmps are way too big.
i now make all wallsets 448x272, if one wants they can cut it down later. doing so there are no more blocky looking wallsets, it really helps out to get rid of the appearance of someone just took a ruler to it.
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Re: Transparency in graphics

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

ebeneezergude, you could try making the wallsets yourself, no programs. set up a 448x272 work area (i use gimp) and with that picture every wall part as the same size, you can then add anything to it, no measuring, it speeds up creativity and once you're done, you can crop and place into the dungeon using Linflas positioning program or do that yourself. i found it a superior way to create wallsets, all you need to do is to place guides to the old default wallsets, then you can easily just slap whatever in there, the best part though is you can increase the size of the wall part just eough to get rid of the square look you see when looking at the default wallset, looks far better, and a bitmap for wall f1 at 300x220 would be larger than a png at 448x272, try it and see. it made building wallsets quite a bit more fun to do for me... try it
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Re: Transparency in graphics

Post by ebeneezergude »

Hey that sounds like a very interesting way of doing it. So you essentially set up the viewport as an image in Pshop or gimp, set the guides to match the various floor, ceiling and wall tiles, and then paint/create the view you want to see? Do you use a screengrab from DM as a template, or the background image that comes with Linflas's RTCIP program?

One trick I have been doing is to do the Side1 wall item graphics by first creating a front view of it, then mapping into Side1 in RTCWM to get a perspectival semi-match, then edit the image to make it look like it's in a side view.
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Re: Transparency in graphics

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

ebeneezergude wrote:Hey that sounds like a very interesting way of doing it. So you essentially set up the viewport as an image in Pshop or gimp, set the guides to match the various floor, ceiling and wall tiles, and then paint/create the view you want to see? Do you use a screengrab from DM as a template, or the background image that comes with Linflas's RTCIP program?

One trick I have been doing is to do the Side1 wall item graphics by first creating a front view of it, then mapping into Side1 in RTCWM to get a perspectival semi-match, then edit the image to make it look like it's in a side view.
yes, a screen grab works just fine, and it will look the way you see it, no coordinates needed, and as i was saying.... it is smaller than a bmp :)

yep, i do that too, i use that as a reference though, pic needs to be changed still but it is a good way to get an idea, you can use the perspective tool too, that is just as cool but you need to be able to use it well, i am still learning how to be intuitive with that part, takes me a while to get it right unless you somehow have figured out where to set the guides for the side 1, then just match it up, i bet linflas knows.
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Re: Transparency in graphics

Post by Gambit37 »

ebeneezergude wrote:I'm finding it far more efficient to use the same bitmap size for a full height object (a 222px high, 40px wide, floor to ceiling alcove, for example) and use this for a small object (a switch, for example)
A bad idea for front-facing things that the player can click on: RTC takes the clickable area as the entire bitmap size, so a small switch can now easily be clicked on by hitting any part of the wall. I don't recommend this, unless you want to make your game far too easy! ;-)
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Re: Transparency in graphics

Post by ebeneezergude »

Ah yes, very true...! Maybe this technique can only be used for static decorations only.

I think I may have been concentrating on graphics too much, and not enough on the mechanics.

Essentially am building up my assets library, as it were, not actually building the dungeon yet. Partly through indecision about which engine to go with. Using rtc is just the way I've been trialling the graphics.
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Re: Transparency in graphics

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

it is obvious that it is best not to use them for clickable objects,besides you can't use transparency on items that show up in the end game credits, it's so obvious, but wallsets it works GREAT, or objects you can't throw or use.

good strategy ebs, build the library first, do the measuring LATER, don't let measuring coordinates slow your artistic side, do that menial work later when you've got things ready.
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Re: Transparency in graphics

Post by ebeneezergude »

Yeah you're right CS. I have various templates set up in PShop that let me quickly develop the items, decorations and variations on the wallsets quite quickly, and to allow decorations to work on multiple wallsets. You kind of get into the flow once you know what the boundaries are, and you know that after a little testing on some of the standard types of wall item, floor items, wallset tiles, etc, later you can create the 'assets' in whichever engine.
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Re: Transparency in graphics

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

yes, i too and slowly building a library as i learn. i have stuff i did in 2007, looks bad but..... that's where i started from, knew nothing :) it is nice to see progression, what once took a day takes a few minutes, heh, and it's fun to laugh at myself :lol:

what are you working on now, what areas have you been plugging at?
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Re: Transparency in graphics

Post by ebeneezergude »

Chaos-Shaman wrote:

what are you working on now, what areas have you been plugging at?
Generally a full graphics replacement. So, all new wallsets, new doors (portcullis, metal, wood, magic/energy, etc), door frames, wall objects/decorations (some interactive, some as pure decos), floor objects, objects (weapons / armour / misc, etc), monsters, and a re-skin of the interface. No re-use from the original DM graphics set. (I started out intending to use the DM graphics set and it got a bit out of control.... :shock: )

So spending alot of time building up, mocking up, and testing the wallsets and assets, so the look and feel is right. Making sure buttons / switches / cracks / moss etc work on multiple wallset types. Generally fleshing out the graphics so that it delivers the aspiration and theme I have in mind for the dungeon and vague story associated with it. In terms of mechanics there are some areas I need to develop in line with concepts relating to some of the objects and wall items created.

Have been doing this on and off for almost a year and it's getting there. Am not going for an all out re-coding like some people are doing in DSB, even though I have checked it out and it is a very impressive package. I'm just not a coder-type, even though I have got wallsets / mosters / objects going in DSB as well as RTC. However as of yet am undecided on which engine to go with once asset creation reaches it's natural conclusion.

A little way to go - need to consider how to make spells unique rather than simply using the DM ones - then it's hopefully dungeon designing time...! Am blissfully and obstinately blind to all of the stories on this site of people conjuring up grand dreams of a massive, amazing dungeon project, which somehow gets scuppered as real life and responsibilities get in the way...... and will just keep going until it all unravels...! :D
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Re: Transparency in graphics

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

i am just as spread out as you are, but i had no real goal, just sort of learning as a go, spent most of my time learning programs (this is on the back of nearly a decade of practising shamanism which includes plants and extracts and spirits and a whole ton of very strange things :) ), especialy RTC. i have done a lot of wallset practise which is why i recommend doing what you suggested, leave them at 448x272 until the last second, a large canvas just is that much easier to work with. RTC mechanics, yeah, i got that one finally, took me years to understand it, off and on playing with it, i didn't really ask too many for help, seems everyone likes to work on their own here, took a break for 2 years exercised my brain with chess, after 2 years i was finally able to kicks its ass on highest level :shock: , then i got bored again and came back to RTC but the mind had gone through some sort of transformation, it seems between playing chess every day and taking a substance called 5-HTP i increased my memory and was able to think out long chains of ideas i previously could not do, odd how the brain works. believe it or not but dreaming can help out :) so i ran into SU, he had ears of gold, asked the right questions and broke my head open even further. so that's where i sit now, working on the ai for RTC that might be used for other engines in the future and wallsets which are fun to do, especially the outdoor ones. i am aiming for a complete interactive DM dungeon, so far the results are great. i am lacking in the area of sound effects and i am not artistic really, although i can use GIMP pretty good. other programs i am playing with are Zbrush, Poser, Maya, 3dmax and Reason 5, but they'll take me a fwe years to feel like i can really work with them like GIMP, it's all about the transparency :)

keep goofing with it, things will come together. i'm around if you want for ai, i got a good handle on that, RTC that is, like you i also do not want to look at lines of code, that's why GG did what he did, to allow others to get involved because if it came down to it, i would not be doing anything if it were to be line coding, it's no fun.

let me know if you want ot be a play tester, then you can decide if the RTC engine is good enough for you.
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Re: Transparency in graphics

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let me know if you want ot be a play tester, then you can decide if the RTC engine is good enough for you.
I'd definitely recommend having a go at his AI test dungeons. Not only will you be inspired by the ideas he's working over in them, but this dungeon's developed into something that's a short way from releasable as a fun playable dungeon. I'd say it's the equivalent of a beta stage dungeon that needs some testing to find the bugs before general release. :wink:

@Chaos-Shaman: I'd recommend you take a break from the AI test dungeons for a week or 2 after the latest one to give me and any other testers you find some time to work our way through the entire thing, there's likely bugs in the lower levels that have gone undetected due to lack of testing down there, for a while there you were programming new versions faster then I could navigate the dungeon!
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Re: Transparency in graphics

Post by ebeneezergude »

Chaos-Shaman wrote:other programs i am playing with are Zbrush, Poser, Maya, 3dmax and Reason 5, but they'll take me a fwe years to feel like i can really work with them like GIMP
Wow, using ZB, Maya, Max to generate your assets - for an RTC game?? You must be seriously good...!

My graphics mostly start out life as a google image search with a big amount of PShop editing. But that was also my ground rule, to keep things 'simple'*



(* a concept I look back on and laugh about now....)
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Re: Transparency in graphics

Post by Seriously Unserious »

ebeneezergude wrote:that was also my ground rule, to keep things 'simple'*



(* a concept I look back on and laugh about now....)
I know what you mean... That was my goal with my custom dungeon too, but then I got big ideas one after the other and next thing I know I'm trying to do everything and make it totally spectacular. I've studied project management and there's a term for they have for that, Project Creep. That's basically when things start getting added to a project after it's started and the project becomes much bigger and more complex then it was originally meant to be.

I'm sure many of us here have suffered from project creep in our custom dungeon projects. ;)
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Re: Transparency in graphics

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@Chaos-Shaman: I'd recommend you take a break from the AI test dungeons for a week or 2 after the latest one to give me and any other testers you find some time to work our way through the entire thing, there's likely bugs in the lower levels that have gone undetected due to lack of testing down there, for a while there you were programming new versions faster then I could navigate the dungeon!
well, i spent a day fixing it up, made it real easy to walk through, it took me a day to remember everything i did,,, ah it came back just before the wine kicked in. had a little too much yesterday to drink, darn it, got out of control. i always know when i wake up the next day later and i see all the jungle d&b music i played :)

play the new ai SU, it has some fixes and it is easy. i have to get to the swamp trees and finish that by next week. then off to the forest work with mushrooms and all that you asked for.
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Re: Transparency in graphics

Post by Chaos-Shaman »

Wow, using ZB, Maya, Max to generate your assets - for an RTC game?? You must be seriously good...!
those are the programs i am learning, i love to play with things, they have nothing to do with RTC, but they will in the future 3d ones, i'll need some practise and learning to get ready for that time. i just like to learn and play with things, if i am lucky i'll meet someone else doing the same thing.

i sent you the ai test dungeon, you can post your experiences and questions on the forum in the RTC section. um, i'll locate where.
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